Our attitude concerning mockery of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon

[Michael]

Read the following

The central message: The Oneness of Xenu.
Believing in Xenu is the most important thing a human can ever do.

Now, compare this with Buddha's insight into human suffering, or the God-Man act of redemption. In short, Believing in Xenu is the most important thing a human can ever do. Doesn't' actually say anything. It is not insightful at all. You may as well say: Believing in Allah is the most important thing a human can ever do. For all that it matters. Believing in Zeus is the most important thing a human can ever do. Believing in Smurfs is the most important thing a human can ever do.

... I mean, come on here.


I suppose I just assumed there was something a little more profound in Islam. A little more insightful. Maybe there's just nothing there? This guy's the Last Prophet, here's your book, One God, yadda yadda, now be on your way. Next.


Anyway, I'm still interested in hearing a direct interpretation of "Oneness". Surely if this is such an important, perhaps the only meaningful aspect, of the whole religion - well, it should be simple enough to explain.

 

[iceaura]

Personally, I disagree with the message. Why should someone else be accountable for my mistakes? To me, thats like saying, well, we hanged this chap here, so you better behave, cos he was hanged for all the stuff you ain't done yet but surely will.

How does that make sense?

It was someone choosing, and able, to be accountable. They didn't have to, weren't asked, and there was no reason for them to except love.

Forgiving someone can profoundly impact on a persons life. Not to do so can feel like a weight.
”
Only if you're conditioned to the notion of hanging on to your sins and expecting atonement.

No. All normal humans eventually need to forgive. That is something Christianity has figured out a little better, or deeper, than Islam. And Buddhism a little better, or deeper, than Christianity.

Other people dying for their sins appears to have worked well for them. They even ensure it happens on a regular enough basis that they don't lose practice.

And yet you object to the deliberately obtuse refusals to give Islam its due.

Do you think forgiving or expecting forgiveness is not a vanity?

In the Christian sense, yes it is not.

These responses seem quite childish, to someone raised deeply Christian. Playground stuff. The temptation to explain the Middle East as a mob of juveniles, who think forgiveness is vanity and payback divinely ordained, is immediate.

Now you expect these people to approach Islam with an open heart, and see the truth in this as applied to Christianity by a Muslim:

That sounds like a sound basis for creating a power base- atonement being necessarily directed at someone or something.

That is one of Dawkins's points, and a major objection of many Protestants to the Catholic Church as well.

 

[Michael]

It was someone choosing, and able, to be accountable. They didn't have to, weren't asked, and there was no reason for them to except love.

I'm not sure that this answer really answers anything. That is, logically, it really doesn't make any sense that Jesus would be nailed to a cross to atone for anyone else's "sins".

BUT, assuming there is this other 1/3 of God, who demands such a sacrifice be made (like the OT GOD). Then to be willing to do so, even under such preposterous conditions, is in a sense - the act of a Hero.


M

Note: Hero's ALWAYS act out of love. If not then they are just a Champion.

 

[iceaura]

I'm not sure that this answer really answers anything. That is, logically, it really doesn't make any sense that Jesus would be nailed to a cross to atone for anyone else's "sins".

The role of logic in all this remains to be discussed.

 

[Myles]

Has anyone considered that the crucifixion of Jesus was god's way of getting his son to try and undo god the father's cockup when he created the world, deliberately tempted Adam and Eve, knowing they would "sin" and cause the rest of us to be born in sin ?

A case of the sins of the father being visited upon trhe son ?

 

[S.A.M.]

So, now that you've had some time to think about this aspect of your religous beleif -what would you say is the central tenant? (given that yes it's not polytheism or UFOlogy) What's the main message in Islam? I mean, expound on your previous attempt.

Hmm you mean having a patsy to die for my sins? And then asking that same patsy to forgive me for putting him in a bad spot? Still makes no sense. If I do something wrong, I should make reparation. If I can. If not, I should pay my debt to society. If I can. If not, well at least be held responsible for it.

Read the following

The central message: The Oneness of Xenu.
Believing in Xenu is the most important thing a human can ever do.

Now, compare this with Buddha's insight into human suffering, or the God-Man act of redemption. In short, Believing in Xenu is the most important thing a human can ever do. Doesn't' actually say anything. It is not insightful at all. You may as well say: Believing in Allah is the most important thing a human can ever do. For all that it matters. Believing in Zeus is the most important thing a human can ever do. Believing in Smurfs is the most important thing a human can ever do.

... I mean, come on here.


I suppose I just assumed there was something a little more profound in Islam. A little more insightful. Maybe there's just nothing there? This guy's the Last Prophet, here's your book, One God, yadda yadda, now be on your way. Next.


Anyway, I'm still interested in hearing a direct interpretation of "Oneness". Surely if this is such an important, perhaps the only meaningful aspect, of the whole religion - well, it should be simple enough to explain.

I don't think you are capable of getting the message, you appear to think saying there is one God is the same as saying there is one <anything>. Its not.

It was someone choosing, and able, to be accountable. They didn't have to, weren't asked, and there was no reason for them to except love.

And this works in retrospect for all who have yet to sin? In other words, even if you do something wrong, you're not accountable, the bill has already been paid?

No. All normal humans eventually need to forgive. That is something Christianity has figured out a little better, or deeper, than Islam. And Buddhism a little better, or deeper, than Christianity.

Do they? Need to forgive or need to forget? I think forgiveness in practice is a vanity, both for the one who claims to bestow it and for the one who receives. That is why people will forgive everything except undue generosity.

And yet you object to the deliberately obtuse refusals to give Islam its due.
In the Christian sense, yes it is not.

These responses seem quite childish, to someone raised deeply Christian. Playground stuff. The temptation to explain the Middle East as a mob of juveniles, who think forgiveness is vanity and payback divinely ordained, is
immediate.

Is it? In practice, however, all western systems of governance follow the Arab model of justice, with the exception of letting off the "criminal" if the victim signs an official document of forgiveness.

So which system actually works?

Now you expect these people to approach Islam with an open heart, and see the truth in this as applied to Christianity by a Muslim:

I just wonder at the hypocrisy of clinging to a philosophy that is entirely theoretical. Where is the other cheek? Which one of you thinks a criminal should not be prosecuted but forgiven with love?

 

[Michael]

Hmm you mean having a patsy to die for my sins?

Yes, I said I agree, in a logical sense Jesus dieing only makes sense IF this is what the God-the-father demands. There is no more "logic" in it than in the act of praying 5 times a day towards a meteor in Mecca. Or not eating pork. Which is to say - none. It makes zero logical sense UNTIL you accept that this is what the God wants.

That's called religion SAM

So, just like the Volcano God who needs a willing virgin sacrifice the angry Sky-Daddy of the Jews needed his Son to willing sacrifice himself. (note: The role of the Hero will be played by Jesus of Nazareth in this portion of your religon

Two things
1) The crucifixion is not a novelty of Xianity. It has been around for millenia.
2) The Hero is an archetype. Frankly I find it surprising you haven't heard of it Or that it doesn't make sense to you. Didn't you ever read Lord of the Rings or watch Star Wars. It's a VERY common theme!

I don't think you are capable of getting the message, you appear to think saying there is one God is the same as saying there is one <anything>. Its not.

Not, and I didn't say One I also included Smerfs.

I said as a "central" message saying: The most important you do in life is believe in 'X(s)'. Is not saying anything profound or insightful. It's just saying: Believe in Smurfs. Done. If never do anything in life but beleive in Smurfs then you'll have accomplished the most important thing of all - believing in Smurfs.

Yeah, deeep man....:m: deeeeeeep

compare this with Buddha's insight into human suffering, or the God-Man act of redemption.

Let me ask something else. Of all of the insightful and profound teachings in the Qur'an, the World's only 'perfect' book, could you explain the one that has had the most impact on your life.

Michael

 

[DiamondHearts]

SAM, it might be better to ignore Michael. We have had experience with him in the past. We all know where this is going.

 

[Michael]

Oh Please DH. I think SAM is a big girl and we have had these discussion many of times.

Here's a couple simple questions for you:
What do you think when I say that the Xian religion, Bible, beliefs are influenced by earlier non-Xian religions, religious books and beliefs?
When I say that the Bible has plagiarized earlier beliefs, if that a vulgar insult, an attack on Good Xians or an astute observation?

You freely entered the thread DH, I think the above two questions are easy enough to answer.

Michael

 

[Michael]

Anyway, I have a couple valid points I'd like to draw all of our attentions too

1) Suggesting there is only one God, is a statement, but that's all that it is.
2) Suggesting that the "central" message in Islam is "Oneness" is fine, now explain what "oneness" means and how it is different than other Religious views of "Oneness". What's special about Islamic version of Oneness? Anything?
3) The statement:
Believing in Allah is the most important thing a human can ever do.

is no more or no less insightful then the following statement

Believing in Xenu is the most important thing a human can ever do.

unless there is a Xenu (or Allah). Then it's a valid point. But that's all it is.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Yet you continue to talk down to us. You are not worthy of being responded to.

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh Please DH. I think SAM is a big girl and we have had these discussion many of times.

Here's a couple simple questions for you:
What do you think when I say that the Xian religion, Bible, beliefs are influenced by earlier non-Xian religions, religious books and beliefs?
When I say that the Bible has plagiarized earlier beliefs, if that a vulgar insult, an attack on Good Xians or an astute observation?

You freely entered the thread DH, I think the above two questions are easy enough to answer.

Michael

Again, since all descriptions of God are arrived at based on what is known and understood by people at the time, its hardly surprising. This is and has been true for each and every thing in the world.

In my life, I have found many answers to questions I have had for a long time about religion, about God, about society, values, notions of justice, equality, discrimination, stereotypes etc, in Islam. I find it an invaluable guide to a rational outlook on life without the necessity to sacrifice my own inclinations towards spirituality. I find it an immensely satisfactory social construct with the ability to adapt to all people of all temperaments and inclinations. I think one cannot ask for more where religion is concerned.

 

[Michael]

You are not worthy of being responded to.

classic argumentum ad hominem.

 

[Michael]

Again, since all descriptions of God are arrived at based on what is known and understood by people at the time, its hardly surprising. This is and has been true for each and every thing in the world.

Based on what you wrote would you then agree that a modern religous book would be based on what is known and understood by people at this time and would therefor should be a better and more informed book?


You do know Chris spent some time in the CoS to check it out. She said the underlying values are about strong family values and making a better society. Given that this is a modern religion and that we, as a society, know much more know - do you think that the CoS may possibly be a better informed, modern and more relevant guide compared with the Qur'an?

In my life, I have found many answers to questions I have had for a long time about religion, about God, about society, values, notions of justice, equality, discrimination, stereotypes etc, in Islam.

When someone from Scientology writes these exact words only of course they find the same meaning in Ron Hubbard's words, do you think that their religion is therefor of equal standing and of equally value as Islam? In essence, is it possible for a person to find the same answers and meaning from Scientology as you have arrived at from Islam?

If yes then, what does that mean to you?

 

[S.A.M.]

Based on what you wrote would you then agree that a modern religous book would be based on what is known and understood by people at this time and would therefor should be a better and more informed book?


You do know Chris spent some time in the CoS to check it out. She said the underlying values are about strong family values and making a better society. Given that this is a modern religion and that we, as a society, know much more know - do you think that the CoS may possibly be a better informed, modern and more relevant guide compared with the Qur'an?

When someone from Scientology writes these exact words only of course they find the same meaning in Ron Hubbard's words, do you think that their religion is therefor of equal standing and of equally value as Islam? In essence, is it possible for a person to find the same answers and meaning from Scientology as you have arrived at from Islam?

If yes then, what does that mean to you?

Sure, a person can find answers from Scientology. I have not lived with them so I am hesitant to make any assumptions. Also, I do not assume that everyone wants or needs the same answers or even has the same questions or that understanding of God or society is standardised by time or place.

 

[Michael]

Sure, a person can find answers from Scientology.

So in a sense CoS is, in this regards, the same as Islam or polytheism or any of the millions of other religions that have come in existence.

Also, I do not assume that everyone wants or needs the same answers or even has the same questions or that understanding of God or society is standardised by time or place.

Yes, which is why I asked if you think a more modern religions and religous books are better placed to provide people with the information they need to live in a more modern society?


Also, according to your answer, you'd also agree then that one religion may not meet the needs of the multitude of different people? Perhaps some religions fit better with some societies and others with others? There is no ONE perfect beleif? No one perfect answer?

Would you agree?

 

[S.A.M.]

So in a sense CoS is, in this regards, the same as Islam or polytheism or any of the millions of other religions that have come in existence.

Yes, which is why I asked if you think a more modern religions and religous books are better placed to provide people with the information they need to live in a more modern society?

Sure, like atheism is popular with materialists, every religion has something to offer its followers.

Also, according to your answer, you'd also agree then that one religion may not meet the needs of the multitude of different people? Perhaps some religions fit better with some societies and others with others? There is no ONE perfect beleif? No one perfect answer?

Would you agree?

See previous.

 

[Michael]

See previous.

You wrote: Sure, a person can find answers from Scientology.

I'm asking for a more definitive answer. I mean, one can say, sure, a person can find answers from the back of a cereal box as well. Sure, a person can find answers from Scientology that are wrong.

Saying sure a person can find answers from Scientology is leaving me confused as to your standing regarding my question.


Do you agree that one religion may not meet the needs of the multitude of different people?

Would you agree that some religions fit better with some societies and others with others?

Do you agree that there is no ONE perfect beleif?

Do you agree that there is no one perfect religious set of answers?

All religions are equally valid?

 

[S.A.M.]

I gave you my answer, you can interpret it to suit your satisfaction.

 

[Michael]

What kind of response is that? I'm simply asking you to clarify your answer.