Our attitude concerning mockery of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon
- Thread starter tresbien
- Start date
tresbien,
you posted that some Muslim named Mohammad invented ZERO - if THAT does not deserve mockery I do not know what does!
Anyway, I am not European and I rather like Asian culture. Actually, I just had Northern Indian curry for dinner
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Can you imagine how backwards a society could become if 99.9% of the people felt compelled to spend 5 times every day praying to Xenu? And the few quackers in the society that actually spoke with Xenu (in their head ... via and Angel/worm-hole alien) were given leadership roles in said society? The Scientologic Republic of Iran .. scary. People dedicate and model their entire lives after Ron Hubbard. Haaaa
Such societies in the modern age are poor and the people superstitious, often intolerant of differing beliefs and generally considered whacked by any reasonable thinking person. That's a fact. Some of these whacked countries even legally ban people from leaving the cult - all while claiming to be peaceful, tolerant and open minded. Hypocrites.
That said, I love the History of Relgion. It was a time when, well so it appears, that the monkeys needed Gods to help give meaning to their lives, justify their rulers reigns and give all round meaning to the world - without too much thinking.
The Great Pyramids - They stood for almost 4000 years covered in a beautiful thick layer of perfectly smooth white marble. They would have looked stunningly Godlike - these perfectly white marble structures standing testament in the desert. Not now of course. But, if you want to see the marble just look at the mosques in the city. The marble was torn off and use to construct them . Great huh? Ahhh the 2000 year old Buddhist Nalanda University - torn to shreds by similar minded people. The great temples of Mexico - smashed by Xians. The 2500 year old Mahabodhi Temple - smashed by Muslims. The Buddhist statues in Afghanistan - likewise. The GreecoRoman Temples - torn down and turned into Churches.
Meh, must be the curry,
Michael
Such societies in the modern age are poor and the people superstitious, often intolerant of differing beliefs and generally considered whacked by any reasonable thinking person. That's a fact. Some of these whacked countries even legally ban people from leaving the cult - all while claiming to be peaceful, tolerant and open minded. Hypocrites.
That said, I love the History of Relgion. It was a time when, well so it appears, that the monkeys needed Gods to help give meaning to their lives, justify their rulers reigns and give all round meaning to the world - without too much thinking.
The Great Pyramids - They stood for almost 4000 years covered in a beautiful thick layer of perfectly smooth white marble. They would have looked stunningly Godlike - these perfectly white marble structures standing testament in the desert. Not now of course. But, if you want to see the marble just look at the mosques in the city. The marble was torn off and use to construct them . Great huh? Ahhh the 2000 year old Buddhist Nalanda University - torn to shreds by similar minded people. The great temples of Mexico - smashed by Xians. The 2500 year old Mahabodhi Temple - smashed by Muslims. The Buddhist statues in Afghanistan - likewise. The GreecoRoman Temples - torn down and turned into Churches.
Meh, must be the curry,
Michael
Very intelligent quote!...no wonder you speak out of your rear!
and i suppose religious followers have.
tresbien,
you posted that some Muslim named Mohammad invented ZERO - if THAT does not deserve mockery I do not know what does!
Anyway, I am not European and I rather like Asian culture. Actually, I just had Northern Indian curry for dinner
He said Eurocentric not European, which you are.
Curry by the way is a catch all phrase that is the culinary equivalent of Hindu
Its how the British "saw" Indian food.
In reality there is no such thing as a North Indian curry
But who cares what it really means, eh?
Do you find it ironic that you use an Eurocentric term as evidence of your lack of eurocentrism?
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I did answer your questions, but there's a hitch.
You dismissed my answers because they were orthogonal to scriptures, the very scriptures you endlessly recite.
Having dismissed my answers, you sought from me additional resolve, of which none would be forthcoming.
The "default" position of a theist is a position in which life without gods is an incontrovertible fantasy.
What notions can be entertained that might formulate answers acceptable from such a position?
:shrug:
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
And how do you know this? Since in many cultures atheism was not something to brag about! A fair number of visual artists in our modern secular culture are atheists, and certainly a fair number of our novelists, playwrights and songwriters. No one can predict with any confidence how long a work of art will be preserved because it's impossible to predict how well it will speak to people outside of its own time.
Several of the songs of the Beatles--infamous atheists--are already appearing on compilations of music for children, and that is always a good sign. Culture that people teach their children touches them so deeply that it can endure for eons.
Sam, when you get on the subject of religion you often lose your scholarly demeanor and make claims with no evidence, or commit other blunders of discourse. And you wonder why we call religion "irrational."
Have you seen the cave paintings in France and Spain. I have, and they are breathtakingly beautiful.The earliest are about 32,000 years old.
The artists left no records to say whether they were atheists or not but it is reasonable to suggest that there were not religious in the sense that we would use that word today.
Had to go back 32,000 years to find an artist who possibly could be might be maybe definitely possibly could have been an atheist? Sheesh.
So Mr "I don't take anything on faith", lets see you use your own criteria. Show me the money!
And how do you know this? Since in many cultures atheism was not something to brag about! A fair number of visual artists in our modern secular culture are atheists, and certainly a fair number of our novelists, playwrights and songwriters. No one can predict with any confidence how long a work of art will be preserved because it's impossible to predict how well it will speak to people outside of its own time.
Several of the songs of the Beatles--infamous atheists--are already appearing on compilations of music for children, and that is always a good sign. Culture that people teach their children touches them so deeply that it can endure for eons.
Sam, when you get on the subject of religion you often lose your scholarly demeanor and make claims with no evidence, or commit other blunders of discourse. And you wonder why we call religion "irrational."
Sheesh Fraggle, surely you can tell when I'm debating the "zero" crowd.
And I did say thousands of years.
Had to go back 32,000 years to find an artist who possibly could be might be maybe definitely possibly could have been an atheist? Sheesh.
So Mr "I don't take anything on faith", lets see you use your own criteria. Show me the money!
Sheesh Fraggle, surely you can tell when I'm debating the "zero" crowd.
And I did say thousands of years.
I wanted to demonstrate that your statement was false, which it is. If you want something closer to our own time, how about the Parthenon and other Greek buildings ? I would say they were works of art. Would you consider Homer an artist, or are you only thinking of paintings ?
How about the mosaics to be seen in Roman villas? Many are pictorial and count as works of art.
Do you think Gaugin and Cezanne were religious ? I don't based on what I have read about them. Van Gogh is a borderline case. Tooulouse Lautrec did most of his work in music halls and brothels. He was certainly not religious, what with his drinking and whoring.
You are taking too narrow a view by implicitly assuming that art that lasts cannot be produced by atheists.Apart from the examples I have given above, you seem to be unaware that many painters of religious themes also painted lewd, sexually explicit images which can be found in the vaults of art galleries.
The martyrdom of St. Sebastiam and of St. Philomena are replete with sexual imagery to the point of being kinky. On the surface , the artists may have been seen as Christians because of the society in which they lived but ,seen through their work. they enjoyed a bit of depravity.
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So Greeks and Romans were atheists? What about Gauguin and Cezanne? Were they atheists? Last I heard both were devout Christians.
And have you seen the temple at Khajuraho?
I have amended my response above to include some more examples. The Greeks and Romans were what we would call pagans because they believed in all sorts of gods, so they were certainly not theists, I have not seen the temple you refer to.
The last you heard was wrong. Gaugin spent about half of his life painting and whoring in Hawaii. He died of syphillis. He was not a paid-up member of any church, so it it inapropriate to say he was a theist.
On one occasion, when asked about painting nudes, Cezanne said: "I paint with my prick ". You are assuming because they lived in a predominantely Christian society that they were theists. There is no evidence to show that they were.
Ah I see, so now its up to you to determine the level of theism based on organised religious practices. Do you think Hindus are theists?
As for evidence? They claimed to be Christians. Maybe they were lying?
http://www.amazon.com/Van-Gogh-Gauguin-Search-Sacred/dp/0374282439
First of all, Israel cannot be compared to any of the so called “conquests” Why? Because the Muslims did not go into a land and claim that this land belongs to them, threw out the people living there, forced the remaining people into a small piece of land and then control their water, their air space, what food enters their small piece of land. The Muslims didn’t do that.
The US was defending itself only until it attacked Afghanistan and only then when it was looking for the people behind the 9/11 attacks. It was not defending itself when it invaded Iraq.
It’s easy to say “Ya, but almost every war is a defensive war”, no that’s not true. The wars fought by the Muslims were indeed defensive wars because they were the ones who were attacked first. Im not saying that Muslims have not fought aggressive wars. I’m sure some did, but what I’m saying is that these were unIslamic and were not commanded by religion. Htat is my only qualm: do not paint bad deeds off as commanded by Islam.
*sigh* Once again, you prove that you are not willing to listen or understand what I am saying. I said I’ve proven it with verses from the Quran where “it” referred to the false notion that the Quran has verses which command killing and pillaging for no other reason than the others are non-Muslims. That is what I refuted from the Quran.
That tells us nothing. It doesn’t tell us why these battles took place and how many innocent people were killed. In fact, it’s a shortened, nitpicked, version from a longer list of dates
What is your source for this?
Maybe because nothing happened the way you want to paint it as? Maybe people just went on with their lives? On the other hand, there are records of whole towns helping the Muslims get rid of their current leaders.
Nope. Why/ Oh you kjow, the Iraqis didn’t have anything to do with 9/11 nor did they have any WMDs. And so it goes on with all those other wars. There are records showing that they were not defensive wars. And the Muslims did not attack and commit genocide or dig mass graves. There is no historical proof for that. On the other hand, there are records showing that the Muslims were welcomed by the people of those countries and they helped them and got rid of their current leaders because they liked the policies of the Muslims regarding society and non-Muslims.
Yes, it is. Quite interesting, not?
The Muslim countries were undergoing the same enlightenment that the Muslim countries in the Western parts were undergoing. Ill just give you the example of Ibn Haytham. As for the question why the Muslim countries stopped making such significant progress a while after the enlightenment took place in the Christian European countries, there are various reasons.
For a large part yes. Western everyday life.
I know its hard for you to understand or even accept the fact that Muslims have done great things in the past, for society,science, education, healthcare and philosophy but I would have expected someone who claims to be such a follower of evidence as it were to do some research fpr himself and actually read about what the Muslims did for Western civilization.
Ah yes, one of the real Aesops fables. “No way religion can ever make a person do a good thing!” This is the extremely narrowminded, borderline hatred mindset that I have seen most atheists make. That somehow the good deeds done by religious people are not because they are religious. Why? “Well, its all superstition! Thats why!” But when a religious person does a bad deed, “Hes a religious person, believes in superstitious fairytales, what did you expect.” Yes, mathematicians may think in numbers. But who are you to say that those people were not inspired by their religious beliefs to do the things they did. To always study nature. To try to understand the world around them. To quote one of the great Muslim scientific minds on the last century:
That was Dr. Abdus Salam, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics, upon accepting the reward recited from the Quran:
After that he said:
Now, here you have a scientist who is a devout Muslim and sees his religion integral to his work. And, in my opinion, this can be said for most religious scientists, current or past. Oh, and before you say he was probably some part time amateur, lets see what your ave site has to say about him:
Not bad for a devout Muslim not?
There have been other Christian wars after the Crusades yet they have not been labelled the Crusades. Now why would that be? Dont be so stupid Michael. The reason for the Crusades was purely religious (yes I know that the Byazntine ruler got scared of a tribe of Turks 100 miles away from him who hadn’t done anything to him and asked the Pope for help to fight them but thats not the main reason the Crusades were fought), and the Crusaders were given the freedom to do whatever they wished and it would be forgiven them by God. The Muslims didn’t do this. They did not fight these wars because their religion commanded them to conquer their neighbours. There is no record every saying that. Nor were the Muslim warriors granted the freedom to do whatever they wished and still be forgiven by God. That is the difference between the Crusades and the Muslim “Conquests” and also any other wars in the history.
No records saying otherwise
Records confirming this.
I think you completely misunderstand the reason behind the dislike of the state of Israel by countries in that area. First of all, the Muslims are not proclaiming part of America granted them by God and neither have they created a country in America nor have they kicked the natives out. Although, now I think about it, some other people kicked the natives out, or at least slaughtered them and took all their land. Anyway, to the point at hand. The reason the countries in that area, and the Palestinians, do not like Israel, are many. Israel is the only country with nuclear weapon, and, continued, unwavering, support from the most powerful, nuclear, superpower in the world. Palestine is the only country wiped off the map. Israels strict imposition of slave like conditions on the Gazans where only 20 items are allowed in. Israels continued overrraction to any slingshot that is fired at it (I don’t care how you put it, 120 to 1 is not a justified response to any attack, let alone the slingshots used by Hamas and Hizbollah). Muslims did not have a problem with the Jews before Israel. In fact, Muslims and Jews have lived in harmony for a long time before this. It is because the actions of the government of Israel that there is a rise of anti-semitism (Doesnt that also mean anti-Arabs, since they are semites as well?) around the world and there has been a rise in hatred for Israel. Now, point me to where the Muslims are doing in the US what the Israeli government is doing in Palestine?
Ah yes, you sound just like Bush. “You’re either with us or against us”. Let me tell you what I shouted at Bush when he said that: Not all is black and white. There are shades of grey everywhere.
It' a question of what sideto believe. I say " by their deed shall ye know them "
Ah yes, because atheists always call themselves devout Christians (not pagans or believers in several gods).
Does this apply for the "theists" who commit murder and torture as well?