Whabi Islam maybe
Our attitude concerning mockery of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon
- Thread starter tresbien
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You asked what changed - perhaps the Wahabis influence in the region. Or maybe they just had a boner for blowing up things, I suppose you could ask them but the way I look at it is excuses are like arse-holes everyone's got one.
destroying 2500 year old Buddha statues fit perfectly with mindset and could be justified by their monotheistic dogma. In the end they did it and they must take the blame.
destroying 2500 year old Buddha statues fit perfectly with mindset and could be justified by their monotheistic dogma. In the end they did it and they must take the blame.
I don't think the Taliban are Wahabis, they are more likely to be militant followers of Pashtunwali or a militant sect of Jamati-Islamia.
The Pashtuns have been in the same place (Afghanistan) for thousands of years, following the same code of behaviour. If they are acting out of character now, you have to look beyond the easy answer.
your prophet's quran tells you Muslims its ok to lie to,cheat, even kill anyone who isnt Muslim,correct??
and you expect us to respect such hateful teachings and its prophet Muhamad?
surely you joking?
guess what bucko,respect is EARNED.
until you change your tune and start respecting everyone as equal,the gloves are off!
God your fables crack me up everytime! You do know that the stones were loosened after a 13th century earthquake, becoming a danger as well? And that it was only then that those stones that were loose were removed and used in other buildings. They weren’t used just because the Muslims wanted to destroy these majestic buildings. Although, don’t let the facts stop you!
Are you talking about the Temple Mount? Which was destroyed by the Romans? And reconstruction of which was continuously halted due to the ambivalence of the Jews and sabotage and earthquakes? Are you talking about Umar, one of the Rashideen, who ordered the Temple Mount, being used by Christians as a dump, to be cleaned and prayed there and did not build a mosque at the site but a mosque at the South East side was built? Or are you, once again, nitpicking to put Islam in a bad light?
First of all, quite how you can take anything that the Taliban do and paint it off as Islamic when their unislamic record is there for anyone to see, is beyond me.
Second of all, the statues stood there for ages and no Muslim touched them. It was only when the Taliban came along, allies of the US for a long time, that the statues were destroyed. And that was denounced.
Horrible. Nowhere does it say Muslims are allowed to destroy these places. Khilji did wrong. It reminds me of the destruction of Iraq’s museums and libraries during this war.
Funny isn’t it, how you don’t talk like this about Muslim schools, universities, libraries or museums destroyed by anyone else. But as soon as you get whiff from somewhere on the internet that Muslims destroyed this you think you’ve hit the jackpot. You didn’t bring this up because you care for education or knowledge. No. If you did you would talk about Muslim institutions being destroyed as well. But you don’t. That shows me one thing: the only reason you’re bringing up the destruction of these things is because they were done by people calling themselves Muslim.
I have a question Michael – why aren’t any other wars in Christian history termed “Crusades”? There is a specific reason for them being called Crusades. The Muslim “conquests” did not take place because of the same reasons. And yes, if this is how you want to see the Crusades, then go ahead. History is recorded for all to see.
Could you tell me which ones exactly, when and what the reason given was?
Arabs did not just live in Mecca. Arabia is big. And Egypt was controlled by the Byzantine Empire which freely persecuted people, among them the Copts, and they saw the rise of Arabia and Islam as a threat. Simple as that.
And you give as your source:
I assume you got it from here: http://www.answers.com/topic/islamic-science?cat=technology#wp-_ref-5
That is not what the footnote was about. The footnote related to this part:
And not to what was above. If it did relate to what was above there would be another footnote. Or maybe you can tell me what source you used? I am asking that because I do not believe that Swerdlow said that. Swerdlow says all good things about Muslims.
Anyway, even if we for a second entertain the thought that Swerdlow did say that, all we have is speculation. “This could perhaps”... Yes, it could perhaps be because there was a war going on at the time which meant that movement of anything in the country was a bit restricted. It’s what happens during war you know?
After the Muslims were kicked out of Spain all the knowledge that they had gathered spread far and wide through the people that escaped the persecution that followed. They brought this knowledge further into Europe and from there it’s all history.
Because Islam is a religion which pushes secular government the most in its scriptures. It’s that simple. Muslims were at the forefront of education. Knowledge was theirs. When they were kicked out of Europe, that knowledge was taken to the rest of Europe by the people who escaped the persecution that followed.
Oh, Michael. Why do you try your utter best to portray Islam in a negative light in any way possible? Why do you waste your time spreading hatred and lies and inciting tensions when you can spend your time working towards greater understanding and brotherhood between people? Why are you trying to make an elephant out of a mosquito? Why is it that you have this innate fear of Islam? Or do you just plain out hate everything connected to it? You do know that the Caliph which called Haytham to Egypt to regulate the Nile, was a mad man and he loved science. And even then he did not throw him in jail. No, he gave him an administrative position.
It was only after Haytham understood how mad the Caliph was that he pretended to be mad and was then placed under house arrest, in his house, for his and the society’s protection. This is what happens nowadays as well with anyone thought to be mentally disturbed or a danger to anyone. But then again, you don’t care much for the truth do you? You will say whatever you can to put Islam in a negative light.
I believe it was the love of seeking knowledge and studying nature so vividly portrayed in the Quran and Islamic teachings which inspired him to seek knowledge. After all, in Islam, a person should gain knowledge from the womb to the grave, so to speak. I suggest you read up on what the Quran and the Hadith say about gaining knowledge. Let me start you off with one:
That is just one of 1000s of Hadith relating to knowledge and there are 100s of verses in the Quran telling Muslims to gain knowledge and study nature.
And yet, you fail to acknowledge that he was a Muslim. How typical of you. Whenever a Muslim does good things it’s not because of his religion, no, it’s because of the Greeks or the Japanese...
Another proof of the lack of understanding you continue to spout when dealing with mine and SAM’s posts. I’m not even going to give you the satisfaction of a reply to this ridiculous statement.
It did not rapidly stagnate, if the Muslims were left alone, they would have continued to be at the forefront of gaining knowledge. But constant war was being made upon them. And when people’s countries are under siege, the last thing people want to do is debate philosophy in the mosque, as they did for ages. And yes, there were more resources to do stuff outside of Arabia, it was, after all a desert, and because the Muslims were spurred on by the commandment in the Quran and Hadith to seek out knowledge everywhere, to study nature, they used this resources they found and did great things. Tell me Michael, did they or did they not pray 5 times a day while doing these great things? Did they or did they not pray to God for guidance in their studies, in their experiments, in their activities? The answer, you’ll find, is they did. Although I don’t expect you to ever acknowledge that.
Who knows, maybe those Mongols brought something with them, maybe their religion, or access to knowledge brought from other parts of the world, which ushered in this new era.
But I’m not talking about Xenu now am I? Nor am I talking about a man in the sky/skydaddy. Nor about a FSM.
So you are saying, that when you give me verses from the Quran and say that the Quran commands killing innocent people, then I am not allowed to quote the full verses and prove that you are wrong? Pray tell how exactly you would have me reply to those allegations?
What are you talking about? My friend, stop sniffing glue and read what I wrote. I said that the dates given there are from a longer list of dates and they don’t say anywhere what the reasons behind those actions were. Now how is that dismissing anything that is not in the Quran?
And once again, you prove that you know nothing about Islam and the Middle East. Tell me Michael, how does it feel to be locked up in that mind of yours where the only thing related to Islam you can find is negativity? Must be a scary place. You obviously don’t know about the culture of the Middle East and the great objects, majestic buildings, food and clothing there is to be found there. I suggest you read up on this subject and then come back and say that again.
So somehow, because the Japanese have gardens, they are superior to ME culture and Islam? And once again, ladies and gentleman, Michael proves t us that he doesn’t know anything about Islamic history. Let me tell you a little something about gardens in Islam. This has parts taken from the Muslim Heritage book.
Back in the Middle Ages, gardens in Europe were limited to the courts of nobles or monasteries, and their main use was for herbs, vegetables and some fruits for self-sustenance.
For Muslims, gardens have always been a constant source of wonder and enchantment, because plants, trees, animals, insects and all of nature are a blessed gift of Allah. Islam permits us to use, enjoy and change nature, but only in ethical ways, so Islamic gardens were designed to be sympathetic to nature, and gardens to this day enjoy an elevates status in a Muslim’s mind. Why do Muslims love gardens? Let me quote something:
Gardens such as Eden were repeatedly described in the Quran as places of great beauty and serenity, and as ideal places for contemplation and reflection. These heavenly paradises were recreated and spread across the Muslim world, from Spain to India, mainly from the 8th century onwards. About one hundred years later, the Abbasids innovated designs of their own. From then on, gardens with geometrical flowerbeds, shallow canals and fountains were built everywhere in Islamic Persia, Spain, Sicily and India to provide peaceful seclusion from the outside world. Just a look at the Alhambra in Granada or the Taj Mahal in India proves this. But don’t worry, I don’t expect you to know this.
Gardens were not only for meditation; many had a practical function, and Arab rulers collected plants. These kitchen gardens not only supplied food, they also gave a rise to a type of Arabic poetry known as the Rawdiya, the garden poem, which conjured up the image of the Garden of Paradise. It was in Toledo in 11th century Muslim Spain, and later in Seville, that the first royal botanical gardens of Europe made their appearance. They were pleasure gardens, and also trial grounds for the acclimatization of plants brought from the Near and Middle East. In the rest of Europe these gardens appeared about five centuries later in the university towns of Italy. Today, the influence of the Muslim garden can be seen all over Europe, from the Stibbert garden in Florence to the Royal Pavilion in Brighton.
It wasn’t just the concept of gardens that spread with the Muslims, because they also brought flowers from the East that you can now buy down at the local gardening centre. Such travellers include the carnation, tulip and iris.
Some people believe the word ‘tulip’ comes from Dulband which means turban, as people used to wear it on their turban. Others say the world ‘tulip’ is an anglicized version of dulab, which is Farsi for tulip. From Persia, the tulip reached Constantinople through ambassadorial gift exchange, where it was largely planted in the Serial gardens, especially in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul.
The tulip’s voyage into Europe has been like a well-though out invasion of perfume and colour. It first stepped out in 1554 with count Ogier de Busbecq, the Hapsburg ambassador to Suleyman the Magnificent, when he took one with him. About ten years later, it reached its now famous ‘home’ in Holland. The Duke of Sermoneta, Francisco Caetani, was a tulip collector and had 15,147 in his Italian garden in the 1640s. The Huguenots, France’s persecuted Protestants, took the tulip with them into different countries as they ran away. Finally, in the 1680s an Englishman called Sir George Wheler brought it to Britain from the Serail gardens of Constantinople.
The carnation and iris were less well travelled as flowers but popular in decorating Persian and Turkish ceramics. With its fan shape, the carnation was a successful combination with the tulip in Iznik pottery. This design was also copied in European decoration and appeared in a number of Lambeth chargers, ceramics produced at Lambeth, England, dating from 1660 to 1700.
The iris was used in horizontal and circular forms by Persian potters, particularly under the Safavid dynasties in the 16th and 17th centuries. These then went on, like the carnation, to influence European designs like the Bristol delftware ceramics.
Let me quote Watson from his “Agricultural Innovation in the Early Islamic World”:
I accept that this is all news to you therefore I implore you to research Muslim history in regards to gardens some more. I also accept that it is news to you hear about the fountains created by the Muslims as well. But that is another topic which I hope you will research as well.
*yawns*You do know that Mosques in Muslim countries are some of the most majestic buildings in the world right? This is why youve asked for non-religious buildings and art because you know how grand and majestic Muslim architecture is. But you won’t acknowledge that, will you? Never. But if the Japanese or Greeks built something like them you would be ejaculating in anticipation of rubbing our noses in it, trying to make us jealous and failing horribly.
*yawns some more* Ofcourse you know about the Sulimiye Mosque right? Which possesses the highest, earthquake-defying minarets in the whole of Turkey. The work of the master architect Sinan, who acknowledged the importance of harmony between architecture and landscape, a concept which did not surface in Europe until the 16th century. Im guessing you also know about the circular window at Khirbat-al-Mafjar which is thought to be the origin of the rose window in Durham cathedral. I assume you also know about the Palatine Chapel in Palermo, designed and decorated by Muslim artists? What about the Taj Mahal? The buildings being built in the Arab world at this moment?And so there is innumerable architecture in the Muslim world including domes and vaults and arches. There are fountains. Gardens. Universities. Palaces. Towers. Too much to list here or give you pictures of. It is now clear to me you know nothing about Muslim influence and heritage in the Western world and the great things achieved by Muslims all over the world.
Who supported the Taliban for a long time? Who armed then? Who trained them? And who ultimately betrayed them?
As would I be happy to see the people who destroyed those statues. But I doubt it would make any difference. Those statues are gone as are the 1000s of books and scriptures and heritage of Iraq and the Muslim world which were kept in Iraq’s extensive museums and libraries. Records dating back to one of the first civilizations. All gone. And I’m sure you will blame Islam for that as well. Wouldnt surprise me coming from you.
With a nod to the Chinese, Mayans, etc - true.arsalan said:
And there's an interesting lesson there - the most secular of major cultures producing the most advanced science, art, and understanding of its time.
And the religion takes the credit.
The successful eviction of a conquering civilization, in the course of which some fundies learned how to use machinery and modern explosives imported from high-tech cultures - for one thing.SAM said:
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He was asking how Islam was important to the secularization of Europe. The secular stsates of Islam and their workings were taken to the rest of Europe. That is what is meant. And secularization in Islam doesnt mean that its got nothing to do with religion. Being secular means being based on total justice. That is the model of the Islamic state. Doesnt mean that religion does not play a part in it.
The very essence of secularism is that absolute justice must be practised regardless of the differences of faith and religion and colour and creed and group.
This, in essence, is the true definition of secularism. And this is exactly what the Quran admonishes us to do in matters of state, how things should be done and how the state should be run
So when are Sharia-based courts going to be abolished and secular justice introduced ?
How can religion play a part in a system based on "total justice"? What are you considering as "total"? Sharia?
In other news - have fully one half of all Christian clergy in London been assaulted by members of the islamic community?
http://www.libertyforum.org/showfla...130388&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=21&part=1
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
This is not true. The definition of "secular" is:
Secularity and secularism have nothing to do with the totality of justice, and have everything to do with religion not being a supreme force. A secular government is one whose laws are not institutionalized religious laws. Secularization means lessening the role of religion in public and private life, not simply changing the dominant religion.
--The Moderator of Linguistics
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
That's an oxymoron in English. "Secular" and "religious" are mutually exclusive because each refers to the dominant set of rules and customs in the nation, society or community.
You can talk colloquially about a "secular Christian" nation, although it's a little imprecise. It's understood that you mean a nation whose government, laws and major institutions are not grounded in religion. But to the extent that religion exists, the formal and informal practices and motifs are predominantly Christian. An example is the USA, in which the two most widespread religion-based figures are Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Neither is an actual motif from the original religion, but an accretion.
A "secular Muslim" nation would, I suppose, be one in which a separate civil law overrules sharia, like Turkey.
But the phrase "secular religious" doesn't mean anything. The second word in that phrase is colloquially used to designate which of the many religions is the predominant one, and stated this way that designation is not made.