Osama Bin Laden is Dead

[S.A.M.]

What utter tripe.

I can see that discussing anything with you is just kind of pointless since your world view is colored by your hatred of the US.

There is an interesting poem you might want to read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came…

Tuesday, October 10, 2006
The Bush administration's torture of U.S. citizen Jose Padilla

The Bush administration's May, 2002 lawless detention of U.S. citizen Jose Padilla -- on U.S. soil -- was, as I recounted in my book, the first incident which really prompted me to begin concluding that things were going terribly awry in our country. The administration declared Padilla an "enemy combatant," put him in a military prison, and refused to charge him with any crime or even allow him access to a lawyer or anyone else. He stayed in a black hole, kept by his own government, for the next three-a-half-years with no charges of any kind ever asserted against him and with the administration insisting on the right to detain him (and any other American citizen) indefinitely -- all based solely on the secret, unchallengeable say-so of the President that he was an "enemy combatant."

As Serrano and others reported, Lindh, an American citizen, was “was kept in harsh conditions, stripped and tied to a stretcher, and often held for long periods in a large metal container.” When a Justice Department ethics attorney, Jesselyn Radack, told a counterterrorism prosecutor that Lindh could not be questioned without his lawyer present if DOJ wanted to build a criminal case against him, she was promptly pushed out of her job. The case against Lindh eventually came down to a 20-year sentence based on a plea bargain, prompting many to speculate that Lindh’s harsh treatment — apparently approved by Rumsfeld’s top aides — ultimately scotched the chances for a successful prosecution on bigger charges than his ties to the Taliban.

“We know he was tortured,” says human-rights attorney Scott Horton. “There’s no beating around the bush. This is clarifying that the authority was given at the highest levels for torture to occur. The strong suggestion here is that it’s Haynes doing that, and the strong suspicion is that the authority for him to do so comes from the secretary of defense.” The further suspicion, according to the Post piece, is that the authority for Rumsfeld’s attorney to have authorized the abuse of an American citizen came from Vice President Cheney.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/06/hbc-90000361

American Citizen Tortured Abroad is Barred from Coming Home

What can it mean when a citizen of the United States, living abroad, can be detained with the cooperation of American officials, and -- without a warrant, without charge, without explanation -- be allegedly beaten, tortured and then put on a no-fly list so that he cannot return to the U.S. even he wanted to?

Civil liberties groups and Muslim-American activists are saying that's the case with 19-year-old Gulet Mohamed, a Somali-American who has been living in Yemen and Kuwait since March 2009, and is now barred from re-entering America. And activists say he's not the first, indicating that the rights Americans enjoy may be more tenuous than we think.

http://news.change.org/stories/american-citizen-tortured-abroad-is-barred-from-coming-home

The wages of sin are not death, as is falsely believed. They are karma.

 

[spidergoat]

Yes, under the Bush administration we tortured people as a policy. I agree it affected our credibility, which is something that Obama is trying to fix.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yes, under the Bush administration we tortured people as a policy. I agree it affected our credibility, which is something that Obama is trying to fix.

yeah yeah we all want to believe

On April 30, 2009, 62 members of Witness Against Torture, led by Carmen Trotta[67] were arrested at the gates of the White House demanding that the Obama administration support a criminal inquiry into torture under the Bush administration and release innocent detainees still held at Guantanamo. The protesters wearing orange jumpsuits and black hoods, were arrested, and charged with "failure to obey a lawful order" when they refused to leave the White House sidewalk.

By transferring military detainees to Iraqi control, the U.S. appears knowingly to have violated the Convention Against Torture. The Convention proscribes signatory states from transferring a detainee to other countries "where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture." The U.S. had received reports of more than a thousand allegations, many of them substantiated by medical evidence, of torture in Iraqi jails. Yet US authorities transferred thousands of prisoners to Iraqi custody, including almost 2,000 who were transferred to the Iraqi government as recently as July 2010.

Barack Obama to allow anti-terror rendition to continue
The highly controversial anti-terror practice of rendition will continue under Barack Obama, it has emerged.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-allow-anti-terror-rendition-to-continue.html

Note that the Somalian American teenager tortured in Kuwait above was detained there in January 2011

Note also that Obama has appointed torture supporter John Brennan as White House director of counterterrorism

And refused to prosecute any individuals or institutions involved in torture.

 

[The Esotericist]

That sucks.

I know, b/c you actually believed there were some to release. ha ha. Sucks for you. More dissonance to deal with.

 

[spidergoat]

yeah yeah

None of your screed contradicted my statement. This is your regular MO, it's damned annoying.

 

[spidergoat]

I know, b/c you actually believed there were some to release. ha ha. Sucks for you. More dissonance to deal with.

No, I just want to see him with his head blown apart.

 

[superstring01]

Yes, under the Bush administration we tortured people as a policy. I agree it affected our credibility, which is something that Obama is trying to fix.

Well, Obama made quick work of the intel his team gathered from Bush's torturings; led them right to the courier which brought them to Osama.

I'm having trouble sympathizing with KSM and Jose Padilla.

~String

 

[spidergoat]

Incorrect, the intel was gathered under normal interrogation.

 

[The Esotericist]

September 16, 2001
Osama bin Laden denies any involvement in the 9/11 attacks in a statement to Al Jazeera television, saying, "I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons."

September 16, 2001

"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children, and other humans as an appreciable act. There exists a government within the government of the United States. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks.... The United States should trace the perpetrators of these attacks to those persons who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own nation could survive."

- Osama Bin Laden (Source: BBC)

"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons," bin Laden's statement said.

"I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders' rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations," bin Laden said.

Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks

 

[quadraphonics]

I guess I overestimate the ability of an elite task force to withstand the unarmed resistance from a single old man in the middle of the night in his bedroom

The procedure employed there worked on the (not-unreasonable) assumption that Bin Laden would be booby-trapped with an explosive vest. You demand that he surrenders and if he doesn't you shoot him in the head - that was the protocol established ahead of time. It's the mode he chose to engage the world in, and those are the consequences of that. If the dude was some ordinary law-abiding citizen, the issue would have been very different.

For one thing, because in a democracy, people who value justice should also value due process.

In a democracy, we do. But our democracy doesn't extend into Pakistan. This is a war. You seem to be confused about how the rule of law figures into wars. Or rather, you seem to be pushing a stilted view of such, which just so happens to provide a handy pedestal for cheap-but-strident bitching about Americans. What a huge surprise.

Meanwhile, I eagerly await your scathing criticisms of Bin Laden's rejection of due process, and democracy generally.

Otherwise, what distinguishes a terrorist from jurisprudence?

Other than the terrorism?

Are you seriously suggesting that the rule of law is an exercise in political terror, only distinguishable from regular terrorism by some adherence to rules of due process?

Because that's asinine.

As far as I am concerned he is a person and like any serial killer or mass murderer or child rapist - should not be assassinated no matter how much the public would enjoy a lynching or a witch trial - but should be subject to the law of the land.

He was a political leader, commanding an armed force party to an international conflict. That makes him fair game for assassination. He freely chose that role - openly declared war on the USA.

Again, what is the "law of the land" when it comes to international armed conflicts involving sub-state actors? We're supposed to just wait around for Pakistan to pull its head out of its ass and arrest him, or what? What law, exactly, was Bin Laden subject to, that the US could seek recourse through? You're demanding that... special forces teams operating in theaters of war, act as police investigators or agents of some court or...?

Elsewhere nirakar made a point about Bill Clinton being responsible for 6 million deaths. Would you recommend an assassination squad mow down his family in the middle of the night because he "deserves" it?

To the extent that Bill Clinton served as leader of a political faction in an armed conflict - Commander in Chief of the armed forces, in fact - he was fair game for such warfare. Killing enemy leadership is a valid part of warfare. Killing a retired president because you don't like his former policies would be a different matter. Bill Clinton isn't waging war on anyone, these days.

Decisions based on emotion are always irrational. Thats why we have a legal system to take care of the criminals and not a system of vigilante justice based on who "deserves" what

And the way said system figures into wars against forces outside its jurisdiction is a different issue. Bin Laden was not a mere "criminal" any more than any other leader of a political entity prosecuting a war.

 

[superstring01]

Well, Obama made quick work of the intel his team gathered from Bush's torturings; led them right to the courier which brought them to Osama.

I'm having trouble sympathizing with KSM and Jose Padilla.

~String

Ahhh. Looking back. I stand corrected.

~String

 

[quadraphonics]

Further, it will be difficult for Americans to argue against the torture of Americans after having globally established it as standard practice

Fortunately for us, we've got you to argue against all torture of anyone, anywhere as a matter of principle. Right?

 

[spidergoat]

September 16, 2001



Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks

About the time he was running for his life. He freely admitted it later.

 

[arfa brane]

Bin Laden: The Movie

Yes, when there is a need to both eulogise extrajudicial "black ops" and those loyal to the cause who carry them out, what better way to promote the myth than a mythological story, enshrined in glorious digital format?

That the movie makers will not be permitted to show any "actual" methods used by the SEAL teams, in case it helps the bad guys, means the movie will be just another bit of puffery, done up in the best splattery traditions Hollywood and all its computers will permit.

I doubt that will mean much at all to the flag-wavers, who will want to see the headless Bin Laden dummy (and the studio bosses will have some explaining to do if they don't show the "bullet time" statistics--as the head explodes with dark forebodings--take that, slimeball).

It will, of course, just help to cement the notion that Americans are always right, about everything. Even Wall St made all the right moves, right? Well, maybe we should wait until Ron Paul: The Movie comes out . . .

 

[spidergoat]

Bin Laden: The Movie

Yes, when there is a need to both eulogise extrajudicial "black ops" and those loyal to the cause who carry them out, what better way to promote the myth than a mythological story, enshrined in glorious digital format?

That the movie makers will not be permitted to show any "actual" methods used by the SEAL teams, in case it helps the bad guys, means the movie will be just another bit of puffery, done up in the best splattery traditions Hollywood and all its computers will permit.

I doubt that will mean much at all to the flag-wavers, who will want to see the headless Bin Laden dummy (and the studio bosses will have some explaining to do if they don't show the "bullet time" statistics--as the head explodes with dark forebodings--take that, slimeball).

It will, of course, just help to cement the notion that Americans are always right, about everything. Even Wall St made all the right moves, right? Well, maybe we should wait until Ron Paul: The Movie comes out . . .

Everyone has their own mythology to propagate:
Valley of the Wolves: Iraq

 

[superstring01]

A side note on the "aggressive interrogations":

WSJ
Sunday's success also vindicates the Bush administration, whose intelligence architecture marked the path to bin Laden's door. According to current and former administration officials, CIA interrogators gathered the initial information that ultimately led to bin Laden's death. The United States located al Qaeda's leader by learning the identity of a trusted courier from the tough interrogations of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of the 9/11 attacks, and his successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi.

I thought I had read something that said that KSM gave up the courier under torture. I will admit that one news article is not overwhelming evidence. . . but it is curious.

~String

 

[arfa brane]

I imagine the movie will severely edit any "interrogation" scenes, wouldn't want the story to reflect badly on the US military, now would we? Or ruin a perfectly good nightmare?

 

[spidergoat]

A side note on the "aggressive interrogations":

Of course John Yoo wants to justify torture, he wrote the freaking torture memos. He is a war criminal.

 

[adoucette]

SAM, Padillia was clearly a test case of the govt's powers and the court cases pretty much convinced the Gov that it couldn't hold Padillia since he was an American Citizen and so he was in fact turned over and tried in civilian courts and found guilty and sentenced to 18 years.


As to

the Somalian American teenager tortured in Kuwait above was detained there in January 2011

Except he was back in the US and pictures of him at the time did not look like someone who had been tortured by the Kuwaits.

You know, all his skin was in one piece, all his fingers working, no missing fingernails or teeth etc etc.

His only complaint with the US is he couldn't come back because he was on the No-Fly list.

That was resolved and he was back in the US in Janurary.

His complaint against the US was just dropped because he had no actual complaint to make.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...cials-dismissed/2011/04/29/AFqEPoGF_blog.html

 

[ElectricFetus]

So even Osama daughter, under Pakistani detention admits the Osama was killed and says she saw it with here own eyes. So I says anyone that does not believe is not being skeptical but being denialist.

http://www.news.com.au/world/osamas...-al-qaida-leader/story-fn8ljm6z-1226050165581

A side note on the "aggressive interrogations":

I thought I had read something that said that KSM gave up the courier under torture. I will admit that one news article is not overwhelming evidence. . . but it is curious.

~String

Bush could have got Osama years ago had he merely remained focused on Afghanistan, if Obama or even Gore had been in charge we would not have wasted 8 years, thousands of lives and a trillion dollars in Iraq! Also the Wall Street Journal is talking out of its ass: the CIA never needed a warrant to listen to phone calls made outside the USA, nor to capture people would they need to provide Miranda rights, nor does the WJS actually state what was derived and how, we still no nothing about what ever torture provided.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/...rding-led-to-disinformation,-not-to-bin-Laden