You mean where the conspirators had fighters shoot down flight 93, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Xoxaf1Al0
Osama Bin Laden is Dead
- Thread starter SciWriter
- Start date
You mean where the conspirators had fighters shoot down flight 93, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Xoxaf1Al0
You're missing the point. He wouldn't have ever been tried for 9/11, and that would have been a terrible shock to the country. Then everyone would have been up in arms wondering what the hell went on and why we went to war in Afghanistan when there was no hard evidence that anyone in Afghanistan was connected to 9/11. If anyone can provide any HARD EVIDENCE, links to government sites. . . . feel free. It's not in the 9/11 report. It's not there. There's bub-kiss.
It's no where. There are "terror" training camps in lots of countries. Does that give us the "right" to invade?
I don't think invading Afghanistan or Iraq had anything to do with terrorism. I thought this board was a place of educated individuals.
(I hazard to post this link, but there are SOME intelligent individuals here that can comprehend the difference between correlations and causation.)
http://www.puppet99.com/?tag=libya
I don't, they were just re-printing a piece from the Pakistan Observer. I take that bit, with known history from his health history, and the last presidents attitude toward a question, and I use discernment to arrive at what truth is. For I am aware that all of our media is controlled by corporate interests for unknown ends when it comes to politics. The problem is FINDING multiple sources of reliable media though. The world empire makes sure of that.
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/about.html
Is this story for real? It's possible, I don't rule it out. But it's a non-issue for me. I do know that he had nothing to do substantially with 9/11. So what's the big deal? Likewise, I am reasonably sure he was already dead. If not, why did we not hear from him all this time? Cat got his tongue? Couldn't afford camcorder? Wasn't into swaying hearts and minds? Sorry, I'm not convinced. That's my right. I have my own opinion. For me it seems far more reasonable given the history of the corprotocracy over time. I look at what the U.S., and all other huge power hungry mad empires have done over time. . . and this is the least of the charades it would pull to control the masses of world empire.
The Chinese, the Soviets, the Nazis, the Romans? They all have done far worse in my opinion.
I hate to say it, but I will not vote Obama. I'm happy he ordered this and succeeded. But, I actually want real change - I'll vote Ron Paul whether he's on the GOP ticket or not :shrug:
Actually the word is collateral damage.
Let me guess, you want to ban police from giving chase, using weapons, or in any way shape or form attempting to apprehend a suspect that doesn't obey the order to cease and desist? Because Police accidentally kill innocent bystanders in attempt to apprehend violent criminals. It happens all the time, all over the world.
THAT is a lot different from purposely indiscriminately killing innocent people. Which is what Bin Laden ordered a couple of brainwashed suckers to do.
This and That
Further tarnishing the moment is this nasty habit of American media to find the biggest idiots they can for the broadcast. An NBC reporter was at either Ground Zero or Lafayette Park—I lost track in the whip-around—and after all of the network's talk about how these young people deserved to celebrate because their whole adult life was stained by bin Laden and so on, the reporter found this young woman and asked why she was out celebrating, and all she could manage was, "Well, you know, it's a party! U.S.A.! Whoo!"
And I thought ... Really?
It was terribly embarrassing.
Still, though, this is a much-needed night. As three o'clock looms over the East Coast, the party is still going strong.
After ... how many years of war?
The United States finally accomplished something. That is, you can argue about a school built in Afghanistan, or elections in Iraq, and people can tear themselves to pieces arguing about the significance. But Osama bin Laden is dead.
No, really, even me. I didn't know I wanted the guy this bad. And, sure, it only means a thousand new questions. You know, like, "Okay, what now?" Or, "Does crossing this one off the list mean we can look at how we're conducting our wars?"
And those are important, difficult questions.
But tonight, yes. Tonight is kind of special. The nation is in undergoing a moment of catharsis. The people really need tonight.
And they'll drag themselves into the office in a few hours, but not a lot is going to get done compared to most Mondays.
Tuesday, though. On Tuesday we'll be back to fucking things up like we usually do.
But tonight we just want to feel like a community again. It's been years since we were one nation, and if it takes the blood of Osama bin Laden to bring us together, that's not the worst thing in the world. Probably not even the worst thing this week.
I would also mention ... er ... actually, I'll bump that to the next part.
I wouldn't go that far.
To the one, bin Laden and the movements he has inspired have killed a lot of Muslims around the world. The mourning survivors of those losses, too, will celebrate.
As to the closure for the families of those killed by our poorly-executed wars? I can't tell you. But this isn't their night, and that's just the way it goes.
I don't know, Asguard. It's just not the night for that closure.
With any luck, this milestone will allow our political leadership to look differently at the wars we're in, to such an end that while we can never give everyone the closure or other satisfaction they want, need, or even deserve, maybe we can stop fucking up so many lives along the way. That would be a start.
Bells said:
Further tarnishing the moment is this nasty habit of American media to find the biggest idiots they can for the broadcast. An NBC reporter was at either Ground Zero or Lafayette Park—I lost track in the whip-around—and after all of the network's talk about how these young people deserved to celebrate because their whole adult life was stained by bin Laden and so on, the reporter found this young woman and asked why she was out celebrating, and all she could manage was, "Well, you know, it's a party! U.S.A.! Whoo!"
And I thought ... Really?
It was terribly embarrassing.
Still, though, this is a much-needed night. As three o'clock looms over the East Coast, the party is still going strong.
After ... how many years of war?
The United States finally accomplished something. That is, you can argue about a school built in Afghanistan, or elections in Iraq, and people can tear themselves to pieces arguing about the significance. But Osama bin Laden is dead.
No, really, even me. I didn't know I wanted the guy this bad. And, sure, it only means a thousand new questions. You know, like, "Okay, what now?" Or, "Does crossing this one off the list mean we can look at how we're conducting our wars?"
And those are important, difficult questions.
But tonight, yes. Tonight is kind of special. The nation is in undergoing a moment of catharsis. The people really need tonight.
And they'll drag themselves into the office in a few hours, but not a lot is going to get done compared to most Mondays.
Tuesday, though. On Tuesday we'll be back to fucking things up like we usually do.
But tonight we just want to feel like a community again. It's been years since we were one nation, and if it takes the blood of Osama bin Laden to bring us together, that's not the worst thing in the world. Probably not even the worst thing this week.
I would also mention ... er ... actually, I'll bump that to the next part.
• • •
Asguard said:
I wouldn't go that far.
To the one, bin Laden and the movements he has inspired have killed a lot of Muslims around the world. The mourning survivors of those losses, too, will celebrate.
As to the closure for the families of those killed by our poorly-executed wars? I can't tell you. But this isn't their night, and that's just the way it goes.
I don't know, Asguard. It's just not the night for that closure.
With any luck, this milestone will allow our political leadership to look differently at the wars we're in, to such an end that while we can never give everyone the closure or other satisfaction they want, need, or even deserve, maybe we can stop fucking up so many lives along the way. That would be a start.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Yes. If you are targeted by the organization that runs those camps then yes they had the right to invade. Remember no one disputed their right to enter Afghanistan only Iraq.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I understand that and don't blame you at all. Obama needed to reaffirm his presidency after all the disappointed complaints coming from Republicans and his constituency alike and I think this does it for the moment. He can say he got something right
Chuckle and let it go
Because the Night Wouldn't Be Complete Without It
(Image by Anne Wagley, via Slog)
Okay, now before anyone goes and gets their shorts into a mudhole, let us just remember that as typos go, that one was bound to happen tonight and, furthermore, as it was bound to happen, it was also bound to be FOX.
Just chuckle and let it go, people.
_____________________
Notes:
Bhattacharjee, Riya. "Fox Affiliate Gets Confused". Slog. May 1, 2011. Slog.TheStranger.com. May 2, 2011. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/05/01/fox-news-fact-checking-team-wins-again
Because the Night Wouldn't Be Complete Without It
(Image by Anne Wagley, via Slog)
Okay, now before anyone goes and gets their shorts into a mudhole, let us just remember that as typos go, that one was bound to happen tonight and, furthermore, as it was bound to happen, it was also bound to be FOX.
Just chuckle and let it go, people.
_____________________
Notes:
Bhattacharjee, Riya. "Fox Affiliate Gets Confused". Slog. May 1, 2011. Slog.TheStranger.com. May 2, 2011. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/05/01/fox-news-fact-checking-team-wins-again
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Only if the death was intentional, they are not held to account if deaths are classified as 'collateral damage'. The armed forces would want nor need a reckless cop or soldier.
Err no, at least not in civilsed countries. I can only think of one incident of a non suspect being shot by a cop and that was a cops partner who was first shot twice by the suspect and fell in front of his partners gun because they were in a very tight alley. Even that was investigated for manslaughter charges even with the widow surporting her husband's partner because that's the law. Recklessly killing someone is manslaughter or in NY its murder 2 depraved indifference
(Insert title here)
Well, man, we're Americans. As I hear it from you, pretty much everything we do is sickening.
Tonight is not their night.
No, really, if I could wave a magic wand and make it all better for them, I would have done so long ago. Hell, I probably would have used it to avoid the damn wars in the first place.
But this is not their night.
Osama bin Laden is dead. This is not necessarily an event that will provide any emotional comfort to those scarred by our wars.
But it does happen to mean a hell of a lot to the families of people killed in his name. And it means a hell of a lot to the United States, which just happens to be a very large, wealthy, and powerful nation with a shitload of bombs and bullets that also needs to get the fuck over Osama bin Laden.
And guess what?
Now we fucking can.
This isn't rocket science.
And, yes, the odds are that we're still going to blow it and kill some more innocent people in the name of something or another, but that's a separate question.
Of all the things America just can't give you, I would estimate that panacea is pretty near the top of the list, surpassed perhaps only by utopia.
No one bullet is going to fix everything that's wrong. And that's just the way it goes.
Asguard said:
Well, man, we're Americans. As I hear it from you, pretty much everything we do is sickening.
Tonight is not their night.
No, really, if I could wave a magic wand and make it all better for them, I would have done so long ago. Hell, I probably would have used it to avoid the damn wars in the first place.
But this is not their night.
Osama bin Laden is dead. This is not necessarily an event that will provide any emotional comfort to those scarred by our wars.
But it does happen to mean a hell of a lot to the families of people killed in his name. And it means a hell of a lot to the United States, which just happens to be a very large, wealthy, and powerful nation with a shitload of bombs and bullets that also needs to get the fuck over Osama bin Laden.
And guess what?
Now we fucking can.
This isn't rocket science.
And, yes, the odds are that we're still going to blow it and kill some more innocent people in the name of something or another, but that's a separate question.
Of all the things America just can't give you, I would estimate that panacea is pretty near the top of the list, surpassed perhaps only by utopia.
No one bullet is going to fix everything that's wrong. And that's just the way it goes.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
What about them? Children die in EVERY war, they are dying still mostly at the hands of insurgents not NATO troops. Sorry but that's a fact. This isn't about civilian deaths but the death of Bin Laden, rejoice:shrug: Obama wants to be president for another term. Do you think he would achieve that aim by bad mouthing his troops and his own people? Obviously not. People are concerned with their own children, that's why so many want to see this end, so they can keep their sons and daughters home.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
In every country. You have to show evidence of intent otherwise its simply an accidental death.
Bells
Staff member
Yes, the iamges being beamed here of what appeared to be drunken teenagers chanting "USA" was cringeworthy.
I understand the desire to celebrate.. but yeah.. It did not sit that well with me. I was discomforting to watch. Mostly because this won't matter at all in the grander scheme of things. The terrorist organisation he led is not defeated and there will be more deaths. But his killing is symbolic. And I agree with you, it was almost a 'finally' moment when the news broke out.
However his actual location raises more important questions and Mr Wright hits the nail right on the head:
The fact that bin Laden was found in a compound in a wealthy retirement community populated in large part by former Pakistani military officers raises dire questions about the relationship of the Pakistani army and its intelligence community to radical Islamic terrorists. For the past decade, as America has poured billions into a country where about one in a hundred citizens pays income taxes, the Pakistani military/intelligence complex has gone into the looking-for-bin-Laden business. Now, they are out of business. If it is true that Pakistani intelligence was helpful in locating bin Laden, and kept that matter secret, then we can begin to sort out our fraught relationship with that troubled country on a more equitable, trusting basis. If that turns out not to be the case, then there will be a dreadful reckoning to come.
Some in the Australian media are also questioning where he was found. As well as providing the link to Mr Wright's article, they also had this to say in another article about where he was found to be living:
Abbottabad is home to at least one regiment of the Pakistani army, is dotted with military buildings and home to thousands of army personnel.
Surrounded by hills and with mountains in the distance, it is less than half a day's drive from the border region with Afghanistan, where most intelligence assessments believed bin Laden was holed up.
The news he was killed in an army town in Pakistan will raise more pointed questions of how he managed to evade capture and whether Pakistan's military and intelligence leadership knew of his whereabouts and sheltered him.
Critics have long accused elements of Pakistan's security establishment of protecting bin Laden, though Islamabad has always denied this.
Abbotabad resident Mohammad Haroon Rasheed said the raid happened about 1.15am local time on Monday.
"I heard a thundering sound, followed by heavy firing. Then firing suddenly stopped. Then more thundering, then a big blast," he said.
"In the morning when we went out to see what happened, some helicopter wreckage was lying in an open field."
He said the house was 100 metres away from the gate of the academy.
Surrounded by hills and with mountains in the distance, it is less than half a day's drive from the border region with Afghanistan, where most intelligence assessments believed bin Laden was holed up.
The news he was killed in an army town in Pakistan will raise more pointed questions of how he managed to evade capture and whether Pakistan's military and intelligence leadership knew of his whereabouts and sheltered him.
Critics have long accused elements of Pakistan's security establishment of protecting bin Laden, though Islamabad has always denied this.
Abbotabad resident Mohammad Haroon Rasheed said the raid happened about 1.15am local time on Monday.
"I heard a thundering sound, followed by heavy firing. Then firing suddenly stopped. Then more thundering, then a big blast," he said.
"In the morning when we went out to see what happened, some helicopter wreckage was lying in an open field."
He said the house was 100 metres away from the gate of the academy.
I am finding this to be the more interesting story than his actual death to be honest. The article then goes on to say that women and children living in the compound (I will assume along with other adults) were taken into custody.. Their connection to Bin Laden is unknown.
But yeah.. 100 metres from a military academy and in a retirement like suburb for retired army officials.. How?
After over 10 years of this man being on the world's most wanted list, he is found and killed living in a luxurious and wealthy region of Pakistan, surrounded by retired and current members of the Pakistani military and about 100 metres from a Pakistani military academy...
The man is 6'4". His face is one of the most recognisable faces on the planet and he is living quite large in a large mansion in a stupidly large compound, surrounded by so much of the Pakistani military and intelligent ex and present personnel and no one realised until now?
Again.. How?
I think the coming days will be quite interesting as people start to probe how this was possible..
But tonight is a night to errr.. celebrate.. because well, there's no other word for it really, is there?
On a lighter note, and since this is the politics subforum:
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Bells
Staff member
Probably so his grave cannot become a shrine for those who followed his extremist philosophies.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Easily. Bin Laden was trained by the CIA, he knows evasion tactics. Hiding in plain sight is exactly what has protected him, no one bothers to look in their backyard when they expect you in a cave. No one is going to do house to house searches through every suburban town. Pablo Escobar was also hiding in plain sight and living in a large compound, and like Escobar Bin Laden enjoyed the loyalty of many Pakistanis. The americans have been saying forever that the Pakistani intelligence sources were protecting Taliban and radicals. Also if you recall it was Mohammed Sheikh Saeed who had seeded $100,000 to 9/11 terrorist Atta. Saeed was a financial advisor to Bin Laden and subsequently it was this little hanging detail that became the smoking gun tying Bin Laden to 9/11. So the fact that he was in a wealthy suburb isn't remarkable at all.