Original Sin?

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M*W: Godless, I just didn't want to occupy the space on this forum with a recap of The Passion of the Christ, so I deleted your post. If I ever run into Mel Gibson, I will spit on him. That's for sure!

All this was is a guilt-provoking demonstration of what movie makers can do to hurt our soul. There is no reason anyone should sense any guilt over the violence in this movie. I refuse to see it. I bear no guilt for Jesus' death (if he even existed!).

I don't believe this movie would have any impact on non-Christians. It's those poor fools who are already victims of Christianity who will suffer and take the blame for the crucifixion of a mythological character written about 2000 years ago.

There was no Messiah. Those who believed Jesus to be the Messiah were wrong. Barabbas was the Son of the Father (i.e. Jesus). It is clearly written that Pontius Pilate let Barabbas go. Therefore, Jesus, the Christ, was let go. End of story.

Not only are those ignorant Christians not saved from shit nor shinola, Barabbas, the Son of God, escaped the crucifixion and lived out his retirement elsewhere in the world of the time. His wife, Mary Magdalene, bore him three children and became a saint in Southern France. It's quite possible that Jesus' bones will be found in the same location.

Jesus was a married Rabbi but no Messiah. The only true Messiah will come when Christianity is smeared from the face of the Earth.

There is no need for this game of "salvation!" Our salvation comes from our existence on Earth -- otherwise, we sure as hell wouldn't be here!
 
Godless said:
I read it, I just don't agree with it! get it?.

Your post, did nothing for me, it did not sway my opinion of giving up my doughters to be gang raped ok!. I rather die at the hands of the croud, than "sacrifice" my kids just to protect someone at my own home.

Wow, I don't want to say you are daft but I clearly wrote that the Bible does not condone Lot's action. And now you are saying you "just don't agree with it", meaning that you do condone Lot's action. The interesting thing is that you just go on ahead and contradict that anyway by saying you don't approve of it. That's why I told you to read the post.

I can respond to your points from the Bible if you want me to, but I had a feeling you wouldn't read that either so I didn't even bother with those directly, but I will answer any specific ones you wish addressed. I have read your entire post and here is an article which should answer your questions

In logic, the Law of Teleology affirms that “where there is design, there must be a designer” – a point conceded by infidels (see Ricci, 1986, p. 190). Thus, even unbelievers have recognized that the design argument is a weapon to be reckoned with in the arsenal of apologetics.

One of the most influential presentations of the design argument was made by English theologian William Paley in his work, Natural Theology, in 1802. In the very first paragraph of his celebrated treatise, Paley contended that if one were walking through a waste area and came upon a stone he might, without evidence to the contrary, assume that it simply had lain there forever. On the other hand, if one stumbled upon a watch, due to the fact that the timepiece had integrated parts that moved in concert for the purpose of marking time, one would be forced to conclude that this object was not an accident; rather, it had been designed, and therefore had a designer. Paley then proceeded, by analogy, to argue that the design apparent in nature was evidence of a Grand Designer, namely, God.

Numerous attempts have been made to negate the force of Paley’s logic. Perhaps one of the most significant of these – at least in our age – has been the work of British scientist, Richard Dawkins, who has described himself as “a fairly militant atheist, with a fair degree of active hostility toward religion” (as quoted in Bass, 1990, p. 86).

Dawkins, a lecturer in animal behavior at Oxford University, has achieved a degree of fame from several books he has written. In 1976, he authored The Selfish Gene, in which he set forth his theory of genetic determinism (although he would deny that appellation). Akin to E.O. Wilson’s concept of “sociobiology,” it attempts to explain animal/human behavior on a strictly genetic basis. Genes, Dawkins has contended, are the key to understanding animal behavior.

But aren’t men animals, according to evolutionary theory? Yes, but in order to escape the logical consequence of his argument (which would suggest that since man is an animal, he is not responsible for his behavior), the claim is made that humans, in their evolutionary progress, have broken free from the genes that program them.

Dawkins has boasted that his work brings home the reality of the ruthless, mechanistic explanation of human existence. “You are for nothing. You are here to propagate your selfish genes. There is no higher purpose to life” (Bass, 1990, p. 60). And, Dawkins has admitted, he is gratified that in reading his book, people are “losing religious faith” (Bass, 1990, p. 60). According to Dawkins, “religion is very largely an enemy of truth” (Bass, 1990, p. 87). He has characterized the idea that man was created by God as a “blasphemy” that atheists “have to fight against” (as quoted in Watson, 1987, p. 11).

In 1986, Dr. Dawkins authored another significant book, The Blind Watchmaker, in which he attempted to negate the widespread influence of Paley’s work. Dawkins vociferously declared that the intent of the book was to negate the influence of Paley because the “apparent design” that is characteristic of Earth’s creatures “cries out for an explanation” (p. ix).

He even defined biology as “the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” (p. 1). According to Dawkins, however, evolution – with its unconscious, automatic process called “natural selection” – is the blind watchmaker behind the wonderful world of living organisms. Dawkins recognizes, of course, that substituting blind evolution for an Intelligent Creator as an explanation for the “apparent design” upon the Earth is a formidable task. Thus, his attempt to prepare the minds of his readers for this propagandizing venture is quite interesting.

First, the professor complained that “Darwinism seems more in need of advocacy than similarly established truths in other branches of science” (p. xi). What he means is this: whereas in genuine science certain truths or laws are demonstrable, and thus quite evident, such is not the case with evolution. Hence, evolution must have special pleading!

Second – incredibly – Dawkins frustratingly says:

“It is almost as if the human brain were specifically designed to misunderstand Darwinism, and to find it hard to believe” (p. xi, emp. added).

That is absolutely correct, for the human brain was designed to think logically, and evolutionary theory is not logical. It is not reasonable to assume that chaos gave rise to order, that the nonrational produced the rational, that nonliving evolved into the living, that nonconscious became conscious, that amoral developed morality, etc. The simple fact is, people do not accept evolution because it is the logical thing to do; rather, many believe it because they have a vested interest in not wanting to acknowledge the Creator!

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/blindBookwriter.htm
 
Wow, I don't want to say you are daft but I clearly wrote that the Bible does not condone Lot's action.

Well I'll take a "daft" as your way to mean stuborn ;) That I am. Here is what your probably don't understand: If the bible is the word of god, and it's writen on "his" manual Lot's action were, then JUSTIFIED in order to "PROTECT" god's agenls. OK!!



n logic, the Law of Teleology affirms that

Logic and teleology don't go hand in hand Ok!! LOL, :rolleyes:
However the design argument was and has been debunked 100's of years ago, if your so inept to keep up with the times I wont waste my time with ya! But I'll post a site for ya! ok; http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/ontology.html

Regardless, and apolegies in case I've ofended you some how, I don't try to personally atack the person but the argument. Ok!. ;)

Godless.
 
§outh§tar said:
• No one in the Bible condoned Lot's action

• . . . . I clearly wrote that the Bible does not condone Lot's action . . . .

Perhaps I should learn my lesson one of these days about sticking my nose into other people's arguments, but apparently not today.

I disagree, §outh§tar; I feel the Bible does approve of and even condone Lot's actions:

Then the men said to Lot, "Have you any one else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or any one you have in the city, bring them out of the place; for we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting. When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city." But he lingered; so the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him forth and set him outside the city. And when they had brought them forth, they said, "Flee for your life; do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley; flee to the hills, lest you be consumed." And Lot said to them, "Oh, no, my lords; behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die. Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there -- is it not a little one? -- and my life will be saved!" He said to him, "Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. Make haste, escape there; for I can do nothing till you arrive there." Therefore the name of the city was called Zo'ar.

(Genesis 19.12-23)

If we look back from this episode to the prior chapter, we see that nowhere in Abraham's discussion with the Lord does either actually address the issue of Lot. Abraham is conscious of it, and we might presume the Lord to be, as well, but there is nothing about sparing Lot among the righteous. Lot is spared the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The question arises, "Why?"

From Dave Guzik:

• The offer is horrible, but more understandable when we realize the low place of women in the pre-Christian world, and the very high place of any guest in your home; it was understood that a guest was to be protected more than your own family

I cannot do anything until you arrive there : this answers the question, Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? (18:25); God, bound by His own righteousness and honor, could not bring this judgment on Sodom until the righteous were delivered

Source: Blue Letter Bible

The immediate change of subject from protecting the travelers to their warning Lot indicates a connection between the former and the latter. I'm not going to hold Guzik's interpretation ironclad; it's just easily accessible and very much in accord with what I was taught.

We do see in 19.29 that God did, indeed, think of Abraham and then Lot, whose act of offering his daughters for gang rape did not strike the Lord as unrighteous. In fact, it seems that God does endorse that righteous offering by Lot, perhaps because of the low place of women that was, truly, His will.

Is being in Abraham's affections somehow an exemption against God's punishment for wickedness?
____________________

The Bible, RSV. See http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html
• Guzik, David. "Study Guide for Genesis Chapter 19." BlueLetterBible.com. See http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1091061456-4247.html
 
William Paley assumes that the watch is made with intelegent design, it's easy to do, ofcourse the structure and intricate details of making the tiny pices work, requires the tiem to develop enough epistemology,required to build such a device, however Paley fails to go even further, if he can assume the natural order of "nature, the universe, etc.." and came up with the intelengen designer, Paley fails to assume that something so great that created the cosmos,"Also must of had a DESIGNER!" Why postulate, that it ends with just one designer?.

So the design argument is flawed, Dawkins book, though formidable that he is, is only comming with easy answers to complex questions, "it's human nature to also be lazy" since he has no explanation he comes up with the "blind watch maker" forgeting that who ever the "maker" may be also is a complex beyond belief that needs "a designer" as well!!.

Why the Big Bang is No Help to Theists

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/smith_18_2.html

Godless.
 
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tiassa said:
Perhaps I should learn my lesson one of these days about sticking my nose into other people's arguments, but apparently not today.

I disagree, §outh§tar; I feel the Bible does approve of and even condone Lot's actions:



If we look back from this episode to the prior chapter, we see that nowhere in Abraham's discussion with the Lord does either actually address the issue of Lot. Abraham is conscious of it, and we might presume the Lord to be, as well, but there is nothing about sparing Lot among the righteous. Lot is spared the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The question arises, "Why?"

From Dave Guzik:



The immediate change of subject from protecting the travelers to their warning Lot indicates a connection between the former and the latter. I'm not going to hold Guzik's interpretation ironclad; it's just easily accessible and very much in accord with what I was taught.

We do see in 19.29 that God did, indeed, think of Abraham and then Lot, whose act of offering his daughters for gang rape did not strike the Lord as unrighteous. In fact, it seems that God does endorse that righteous offering by Lot, perhaps because of the low place of women that was, truly, His will.

Is being in Abraham's affections somehow an exemption against God's punishment for wickedness?
____________________

The Bible, RSV. See http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html
• Guzik, David. "Study Guide for Genesis Chapter 19." BlueLetterBible.com. See http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1091061456-4247.html

I feel you are misinterpreting the measure of Lot's righteousness.

Let me start from the beginning:

If Lot really was seen righteous by God (according to your argument), then we wouldn't need Jesus to die for sins because man really CAN become "righteous".

Obviously that is not the case.

Paul contended that there is “none righteous, no, not one” (Rom. 3:10). And yet Peter referred to Abraham’s nephew as “righteous Lot” (2 Pet. 2:7; cf. Acts 10:22). Do the Scriptures conflict? They do not. No one, aside from deity, is righteous in the complete sense; Lot was righteous relatively - as he stood in contrast to the men of Sodom among whom he lived.

Paragraph from: http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/makingSense.htm

Therefore we can see that Lot's action was NEVER condoned. What more, the divine justification of Abraham first and also Lot was according to faith, NOT works. Read Romans 4, which describes righteousness by faith through Abraham.
 
Godless said:
William Paley assumes that the watch is made with intelegent design, it's easy to do, ofcourse the structure and intricate details of making the tiny pices work, requires the tiem to develop enough epistemology,required to build such a device, however Paley fails to go even further, if he can assume the natural order of "nature, the universe, etc.." and came up with the intelengen designer, Paley fails to assume that something so great that created the cosmos,"Also must of had a DESIGNER!" Why postulate, that it ends with just one designer?.

So the design argument is flawed, Dawkins book, though formidable that he is, is only comming with easy answers to complex questions, "it's human nature to also be lazy" since he has no explanation he comes up with the "blind watch maker" forgeting that who ever the "maker" may be also is a complex beyond belief that needs "a designer" as well!!.

Why the Big Bang is No Help to Theists

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/smith_18_2.html

Godless.

Your argument is SERIOUSLY flawed. Even though you have accepted that the universe is characterized by design, which demands a Designer, you have then searched for an escape route by saying that the Designer must then also have a Designer.

Unless you have proof, by this Law of Teleology, that the Designer is in fact characterized by Design (to prove that He must then have a designer), to show that your argument has any sort of merit whatsoever, it stands erroneous.
 
Godless said:
Well I'll take a "daft" as your way to mean stuborn That I am. Here is what your probably don't understand: If the bible is the word of god, and it's writen on "his" manual Lot's action were, then JUSTIFIED in order to "PROTECT" god's agenls. OK!!

Well, stubborn and godless.. :p I don't know what "agenls" means and quite frankly I don't understand what you are saying here either. The Bible also has SPECIFIC details on the justification of man so if you are saying that because Lot is in the Bible, he is justified then you are wrong. Not to mention Satan is also mentioned in the Bible and is timelessly characterized as unrighteous.

I discuss these details a little more in my reply to tiassa.


Logic and teleology don't go hand in hand Ok!! LOL,
However the design argument was and has been debunked 100's of years ago, if your so inept to keep up with the times I wont waste my time with ya! But I'll post a site for ya! ok; http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/ontology.html

Regardless, and apolegies in case I've ofended you some how, I don't try to personally atack the person but the argument. Ok!.

Godless.

Oh no you haven't offended me. I have just refuted your argument that the Designer must have a Designer, since the Designer is not characterized by design so I am not at all offended.
 
I found a good review on Dawkins' "the blind watchmaker" it begs to be posted here:
http://www.geocities.com/a_and_e_uk/BlindWatch.htm

eview of Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (London 1991)

ISBN: 0140144811



Debates about Darwinism rage as fiercely as they did when the Origin of Species was published in 1859. Opponents of Darwinism come from a variety of directions. Those with a religious background often argue using creationist arguments, whilst others provide alternative scientific theories such as mutationism. A third group, including punctuationists, argue for a modified Darwinian theory. The Blind Watchmaker is Dawkins’ attempt to prove all these people wrong whilst simultaneously educating the layman about what Darwinism actually is.



Dawkins writes in a clear and accessible way, instantly allaying any fears that the reader might have about being incapable of understanding the concepts of Darwinism. This is achieved by a copious use of analogies and real-world examples that are unfailingly fresh, exciting and informative. Not only does the reader get an education in Darwinism, but also in biology, taxonomy, linguistics, engineering and computing. The book’s structure also helps to make the concepts accessible. Each chapter is a self-contained topic that has little impact on the discussions in the following chapters. This ensures that the reader never feels that they are halfway through a chapter, but have forgotten a basic concept explained three chapters ago. Because of this structure, a summary of the book’s content will tend to be episodic in nature. On this matter I beg your indulgence.



The first chapter explains what Dawkins means by ‘complexity’. No doubt there will be some physicists who will feel slighted at Dawkins’ dismissal of their subject as simple, but they would be missing the point he is trying to make. For Dawkins, a complex object is one whose approximate form and (more importantly) function is unlikely to emerge if its constituent parts were thrown together at random. Examples of Dawkins’ definition of complexity are such things as complex machinery or biological entities, the function of the latter being to stay alive.



Having established this, Dawkins goes on to justify what he believes to be an appropriate degree of explanation. In this case, he judges this to be an explanation to the level where ‘entities are so simple that they can be safely handed over to the physicists’. Just to prove what a detailed level of explanation this is, he ends the chapter by describing the intricate structure of the eye.



Chapter 2 continues his exploration of the complexity of the biological world through a thrilling description of the echo-location system in bats. This takes up the majority of the chapter, leaving only a small space for what he really wants to attack: ‘the argument of Personal Incredulity’. This, reduced to its simplest form, equates to the oft-quoted Richard Wilson catchphrase, ‘I don’t believe it!’. To make this line of argument seem particularly foolish he uses a passage written by an unfortunately under-educated bishop, Hugh Montefiore, who could not think of a selection advantage for polar bears being white. There is a very obvious advantage to being white if you are a polar bear – your prey is less likely to see you as you stalk them. By pointing this out Dawkins makes Montefiore and all of Montefiore’s arguments seem unreasonable. The destruction of the reader’s disbelief at the immense probabilities involved in the workings of evolution is essential for making many of his proposition convincing. So essential, in fact, that he discusses probabilities again later on in the book.



In Chapter 3 Dawkins starts to describe the processes involved in evolution. He shows, with the aid of computer programs, how cumulative adaptation vastly increases the probability of a structure developing. This is convincingly demonstrated by a computer which takes an input phrase, ‘mutates’ it and then selects the best mutant progeny to ‘breed’ the next generation of mutant phrases from it. In this case ‘best’ is defined as closest to the target – METHINKS IT IS A WEASEL. Impressively, the computer progresses from WDLMNLTDTJBKWIRZREZLMQOCOP to the endpoint in a mere 43 generations. The probability of this phrase spontaneously arising by a single-step mutation is a staggering 1 in 1039.



The second half of the chapter refines the point by introducing a computer program which has no idealised endpoint. Through the alteration of a few basic variables, his second program produces drawings that look very similar to biological objects. This is all very interesting, but Dawkins takes a long time to get to the point of it all – that evolution by small gradual steps is far more likely than evolution by large jumps.



Using this thesis he then sets out to show that evolution of the eye is very simple to explain if you consider it in terms of small steps. ‘1% of vision is better then total blindness’ he notes. To further hammer the point home he takes a passage from Frank Hitching’s The Neck of a Giraffe: or Where Darwin Went Wrong, which claims that ‘the eye functions as a whole, or not at all’. Unfortunately for Hitching, not only are short-sighted people obviously better off than blind people, but there exists a squid-like creature called Nautilus, whose eyes do not have lenses. Dawkins is all too eager to point this out. Hitching’s book continues to provide Dawkins with opportunities to demonstrate his superior zoological knowledge, and Dawkins takes him to task with relish. In doing so, not only does he make Hitching look ridiculous but, by association, the idea that the eye could not have developed gradually is made to look ludicrous.



The last third of Chapter 4 continues Dawkins’ adventures in zoology, and uses copious examples to provide evidence of convergent evolution. Here Dawkins really shines, inspiring feelings of wonder and delight in the reader, whilst making the point that if specialised organs have evolved separately in two unrelated creatures then the process of evolution must be quite probable.



Chapter 5 begins by stating that the problem of blending has been solved by the discovery of Mendelian genetics. Since discrete genes are inherited, there can be only phenotypic blending, not genotypic blending. Having introduced the term gene, Dawkins takes the opportunity to digress into a long and fascinating discussion of the structure of DNA and the mechanism of its replication. Towards the end of this tangent he introduces evidence of spontaneously self-replicating RNA, an essential concept if you postulate that life originated in a puddle of primeval ooze.



Sure enough, Chapter 6 is devoted entirely to discussing the origin of life. Pride of place is given to the primeval puddle theory. God is sidelined as a facile argument within the first few pages of the chapter, leaving plenty of time to explain how evolution can provide an explanation of how life arose. Dawkins spends a lot of time looking at probability and, having, allocated the catchy moniker of Spontaneous Generation Probability (SGP) to the probability of life arsing spontaneously on Earth, he assigns it a value of 1 in one billion (on the basis of facts contained in chemistry textbooks). After playing with this figure for a few pages he concludes that life is so overwhelmingly probable that it is likely to have occurred ‘not just once but many times, all over the Universe’.



This established, he outlines Cairns-Smith’s theory of how clay replication could have led to the development of RNA, which in turn evolved into DNA and life as we know it. Just in case reader are beginning to find this a little improbable, he reiterates just how ridiculous it is to let mere implausibility get in the way of a good theory. After all, our brains are not built to accurately consider the range of probabilities needed.



Having now covered the really controversial subjects, Dawkins spend the next two chapters describing how evolutionary forces could foster further evolution and how sexual selection can lead to the emphasis of certain traits within a species. These two chapters are carefully and meticulously argued. Particularly effective is his demonstration of the power of sexual selection using the example of tails in African long-tailed widow birds.



In Chapter 8 Dawkins turns on saltationists and punctuationists, the opponents of the gradualist school of thought. Here again he is very convincing, showing that punctuationism and saltation, particularly saltation, are not plausible alternatives. In fact punctuationism is not an alternative to gradualism, but more of a slight re-wording of it (at least according to Dawkins). Amidst this discussion he briefly takes time out to explain speciation, another potential stumbling block to Darwinism, and accomplishes this in a mere two and a half pages. Perhaps as a result of his belief that the theory he describes is accepted by all orthodox neo-Darwinists as the main process by which species come into existence, Dawkins does not believe that it warrants more than a short explanation.



The rest of the book seems to be aimed more at his scientific colleagues than the layman. Chapter 10 discusses various systems of taxonomy and the superiority of schemes based on evolution over other schemes. Chapter 11 explains why alternative scientific theories to neo-Darwinism, such as Lamarckianism, mutationism, neutralism and molecular drive, are either completely ridiculous or not real opponents to neo-Darwinism. Just in case any readers were considering God again, he takes another opportunity to reduce God to the status of a silly argument. He concludes by stating that ‘natural selection is the ultimate explanation for our existence’. It now remains to discuss whether the arguments contained in The Blind Watchmaker are sufficiently strong to support such a sweeping statement.



Perhaps the main problem with many of Dawkins’ explanations is that he does not go into sufficient detail about the mechanisms of the processes he describes. Certainly, he rarely reaches the level of detail where entities are so simple that they can be handed over to the physicists. Having taken so much care to establish what a good level of explanation is in the first chapter, it seems odd (if not careless) that he should so often fall short of his own criterion.



A good example of this is his explanation of speciation. Earlier in the book Dawkins mentions that chimpanzees have 24 pairs of chromosomes whilst humans have 23. Therefore, we either lost a chromosome or the chimps gained one. The implication of this, he glibly remarks, is that ‘there must have been at least one individual who had a different number of chromosomes from his parents’. This does not seem to bother Dawkins, but the inquisitive reader is left wondering how this person bred with the rest of his or her population. Given that different species often have different numbers of chromosomes, this seems a particularly pertinent question in the case of speciation.



The subject of speciation is poorly dealt with in The Blind Watchmaker. Such a fundamental cornerstone of evolutionary theory deserves a lot more than two and a half pages. Having said that, there are subtle references to speciation in the chapter on taxonomy. At one point Dawkins say that the appearance of distinct species is merely an illusion, and in fact all species are a continuum. The reason that there appear to be separate species is that the intermediates have died out. This is all very well, but by the end of the book I do not feel that I have fully understood speciation. Of course, this may simply be because I am obtuse, but on the other hand a more detailed explanation would undoubtedly have helped.



In the same chapter that he discusses speciation, Dawkins discusses the origins of life. The Cairns-Smith theory is plausible enough while it suggests that RNA originally evolved as an aid to clay replication, and then the RNA self-replicated and evolved into DNA. However, when Dawkins suddenly makes the jump from DNA to life the plausibility ends. Can DNA self-replicate? He does not answer this question. Certainly in modern cells DNA replication is achieved with the help of multiple enzymes such as gyrases and polymerases. Are we supposed to believe that these evolved in the same zinc-filled puddle as the DNA? The DNA certainly could not code for them, because translation of DNA requires another whole set of enzymes. Even if all these proteins did develop beside the DNA and miraculously organised themselves into a simple cell (and many more proteins are required for this last step) it would be a staggering coincidence if the DNA, which had been randomly mutating while it ‘waited’ for the other cell elements to arise, should then code for the specific proteins required to replicate, transcribe and translate it into useful proteins. Dawkins’ only answer is, again, to warn against the lunacy of incredulity. It becomes apparent that the reason he has devoted as many paragraphs to ridiculing the incredulous is because he needs to make the reader feel incapable of questioning anything that seems unlikely. If the reader does take this (radical) step then many of Dawkins’ arguments become unconvincing.



Sometimes the tactic of mocking disbelieving opponents is used to ignore the question at the heart of the argument. When Hitching said that all the parts of the eye needed to be working together or the eye would not function at all, he certainly overstated the point. Dawkins has seized on this, and has showed how a partially sighted person is at a distinct advantage to a blind person. However, I believe that Hitching was trying to say that the structure of the smallest units of the eye is still very complex, and a great deal of complex structures need to be in place for even a rudimentary eye to work.



Take the most basic eye, a photoreceptor linked to some mechanism that produces a reflex response. Dawkins helpfully draws a diagram to display how complex a photoreceptor is, but for the purposes of our basic eye we will make the photoreceptor more simple and have it simply as a cell containing rhodopsin, the light sensitive protein in photoreceptors, linked to some simple hypothetical actuating mechanism, far simpler than the one in modern eyes that generates nervous impulses. If the structure of either rhodopsin or the actuating mechanism is imperfect then the cell will not be light-sensitive and the organism will have absolutely no survival advantage over its peers whatsoever. Hence, at the molecular level, Dawkins’ reductionist argument that 6% sight is better than 5.9% sight is better than 5.8% sight etc falls to pieces.



The development of enzymes is a very important topic. Dawkins attempts to show, with his METHINKS IT IS A WEASEL program, that cumulative adaptation is easily capable of explaining how proteins develop. However, in real life proteins that differ from the correct structure by even a single amino acid have a radically different conformation and are completely useless. Some of the body’s proteins are huge: haemoglobin, for example, is made up of two a globin chains and two b globin chains. The a chain is 141 amino acids long and the b chain is 146 amino acids long. This means that the a chain is coded for by a gene 423 base pairs long. There are many ‘critical sites’ along the chain where alteration of a single amino acid could result in the haemoglobin being completely non-functional. Thus, the alteration of a single base pair out of 423 could potentially lead to a protein that, despite being 99.764% correct, has no selection advantage whatsoever (and this is just if the a chain is miscoded). The b chain poses a similar problem. The only way that imperfect chains could be selected would be if the host organism simultaneously developed a different adaptation that gave it an advantage over its peers. This seems rather improbable, given that our bodies contain thousands of highly complex proteins. Was the evolution of each one really accompanied by the evolution of an advantageous adaptation?



Dawkins briefly mentions co-evolution when he describes how a certain genetic ‘climate’ favours the evolution of certain enzymes. To use his own example, if a biochemical pathway requires enzymes A1, B1 and C1, development of B1 is favoured if A1 and C1 are already present. The concept of A1 and C1 being produced by an organism for no reason (they cannot function effectively until B1 arrives) does not seem to bother Dawkins. His example is very simple, but most biochemical pathways consist of many enzymes. If you have a 20-enzyme pathway it seems unlikely that 19 of these enzymes will be propagated through a population until enzyme 20 develops, making the pathway useful. At some point one has to assess the probability of an event happening, and if that probability is vanishingly small then we can dismiss that event as effectively impossible. Physicists do this all the time to explain why a cow will not jump over the moon.



Making an assessment of such probabilities is very tricky, as Dawkins himself demonstrates while discussing the origins of life. His argument for the likelihood of life arising on Earth is dependant on the value he gives to the SGP. He guesses, and chooses what he regards as a small probability – 1 in one billion. To my mind this is a rather large probability, but that is not important. What is important is that Dawkins demonstrates absolutely no justification for choosing one in one billion as the value of the SGP. If his guess is wrong, then his argument is completely invalid. When you consider that this is meant to be the best evidence for the conclusion that life on Earth is a result of evolution, the theory looks ever more shaky.



In the same chapter Dawkins dismisses the idea of an eternal Creator as a ‘lazy way out’, because ‘to explain the origins of the DNA/protein machine by invoking a supernatural Designer is to explain precisely nothing, for it leaves unexplained the origins of the Designer’. However, if God really did create the universe then whether you can explain God or not changes nothing. We cannot fundamentally explain how gravity works – does this mean that it does not operate? Certainly not. Just because you cannot explain something does not mean that you should deny its existence. When trying to explain God, science is a completely inappropriate tool. No form of reasoning will prove His existence; you just have to take His omnipotence and eternal existence on faith. In much the same way, though science will ever be able to fully explain everything in the Universe we have to take its starting assumptions on faith if we are happy with the answers it provides.



At no stage does Dawkins admit this. He presents the theory of evolution as fact when it is merely one of many theories describing how life on Earth began. As demonstrated by Dawkins’ final chapter, neo-Darwinism is more plausible than many other scientific theories. However, scientific theories are not more inherently valid than religious ones. By failing to be open about this fact, by rushing over many of his calculations and by refusing to discuss critical details about the mechanism of evolution Dawkins loses much of the credibility that he might otherwise have kept. The reader is left wondering why Dawkins found it necessary to skim over so many details. Dawkins’ supporters might argue that they are sacrificed in terms of readability, and it is true that the book is refreshingly lucid and highly entertaining. However, at the end of the day readers have bought the book for a lesson in the mechanisms of evolution, not zoology. By failing to properly describe the mechanisms of evolution Dawkins not only fails to justify his conclusion but also renders his book the literary equivalent of a glass bauble – superficially attractive but ultimately worthless.

I'll get back to you on Lot's folly! ok!

Godless.
 
I don't want to say that is a very long review you have posted but it would be nice if you could consolidate and gimme the point in respect to our discussion.

Evolution FAILS to show how the amoral became moral.
 
Well continuing on Lot's folly:

Not only did he offer his daughters to be gang raped, but latters he has sexual intercourse with them! And this is rightious?. LOL :)

Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story.
Genesis 19:30-38.

But really you must get your hands on the X-rated bible This is the cheapest I found:
http://shopping.msn.com/search/detail.aspx?pcId=13076&prodId=491327

here's a small review:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/spp.htm

PS. notice the name of the site? LOL!!

Godless.
 
Godless said:
Well continuing on Lot's folly:

Not only did he offer his daughters to be gang raped, but latters he has sexual intercourse with them! And this is rightious?. LOL :)

Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story.
Genesis 19:30-38.

FOR THE LAST TIME, the Bible does NOT condone Lot's actions. The Bible's standard for righteousness is NOT works.

But really you must get your hands on the X-rated bible This is the cheapest I found:
http://shopping.msn.com/search/detail.aspx?pcId=13076&prodId=491327

here's a small review:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/spp.htm

PS. notice the name of the site? LOL!!

Godless.

Thank you for your concern Godless. I'd rather hear what there is to know from you if you don't mind.
 
Thank you for your concern Godless. I'd rather hear what there is to know from you if you don't mind.

Oh! G! thanks I'll point you to some controversial bible verses:

Humor: Isaih 16:11 Wherefore my bowels shall sound like a harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh.

A fart mind you, sounding like harps, and smelling like what I wonder? LOL :D

Cabinalism: 2Kings 6:28-29 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

Now I know there were desperate times, however I hope that this does not become a regular Christian practice, if again the human race falls under harsh nuclear war atacks or something.

Porn: Ezekiel 23: 19-21 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

Well I've met plenty of hookers and most of them do believe in god, they sometimes are even maried, this is just a job for them. But what's incredulous is that this is the bible, supposedly god's manual for being moral, and children do read the bible, yet this is the kind of crap it has on it's pages!.

MHO, The bible should not be taken literaly, not as a quide for the human race, because if you were to read it, and look at the social problems of today the roots of all this social problems such as Pornograhpy, incest, murder, wars, are all based on the literature that men follow!. Mainly the bible, and quran.

Godless.
 
*************
M*W: An excerpt from Sacred Origins of Profound Things: The Stories Behind the Rites and Rituals of the World's Religions, by Charles Panati, Penguin Books USA Inc., NY, NY, pp 411-15.

"The story of Sodom and Gomorrah plays a pivotal role in the religious view of homosexuality. The name of the city of Sodom, and the name of its people, Sodomites, became synonymous with homosexuals and with taboo sexual practices both homosexual and heterosexual."

"Most countries have sodomy laws relating to: (1) gay sex, (2) anal intercourse between two people, (3) bestiality, and (4) a number of sexual activities ranging from hand-genital contact with minors to mouth-genital contact between a husband and wife."

"The infamous cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are believed to lie beneath the shallow waters south of al-Lisan, a peninsula near the southern end of the Dead Sea in Israel. ALong with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar, Socom and Gomorrah constituted the five biblical 'cities of the plain.'"

"Supposedly destroyed by "brimstone and fire" because of their wickedness, Sodom and Gomorrah actually were devastated around 1900 BCE by an earthquake that struck the Great Rift Valley, an extensive rift extending from the Jordan River Valley in Israel to the Zambezi River system in East Africa. The quake occurred at most 500 years before the biblical tale of Sodom was written down, that is, during the time of Abraham."

"Archeological evidence indicates that the soil in this area was richly fertile during the Middle Bronze Age, about 2000 BCE, and would lhave supported agriculture -- which is probably what made the land appeal to Lot, the nephew of Hebrew patriarch Abraham, who settled in the region."

The spectacle of "brimstone and fire" most likely came from an ignition of petroleum and gases beneath the rift, released by the catastrophic quake. It is not surprising that the upheaval and destruction of the region during the period of the Hebrew patriarchs certainly would be remembered in story."

"Genesis, chapter 19, spins the bizarre saga of the town of Sodom, itself named for Mount Socom (Har Sedom in Hebrew) at the southwest end of the Dead Sea."

"In Sodom, a mob of men demand sex with two males who have visited the humble home of Lot. The visitors, who are actually angels of the Lord, strike the mob blind and God destroys the town with fire and brimstone."

"According to three prominent biblical figures -- the prophet Ezekiel, the Gospel writer Luke, and Jesus Christ -- the story of Sodom is not about sexual perversion and homosexuality. It is about two other issues entirely: inhospitality, as Luke tells us (Luke 10:10-13), and failure to care for the poor, as Ezekiel makes clear 'Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness within her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.'(Ezek.16:49-50)."

"As professor and minister Peter Gomes writes: 'To suggest that Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexual sex is an analysis of about as much worth as suggesting that the story of Jonah and the whate is a treatise on fishing.' We'll shortly get to Christ's own interpretation of the story."

"There are many disturbing elements to the story that have nothing to do with homosexuality. The two angels enter Lot's house and the rowdy townsmen surround the place demanding: 'Bring them out that we may abuse them.' Lot went out to the men, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'I entreat you, brethren, do not act wickedly. I have two daughters who have not known man. Let me bring them out to you; do as you please with them.'" (Gen. 19:5-8)

"A father offers his virgin daughters to a horny pack of heavy breathers -- is this not a sin in itself? A worse sin perhaps than male-on-male rape? If indeed that is what the townsmen were about to do to the angels."

"What did the angry mob want from the visitors?"

"The Douay Bible says the men wanted to 'abuse them.' The KJV says: 'Bring them out that we may know them.' Linguistically, the evidence is that 'know them' refers to 'know who the two strangers are.' Know there identity."

Contrary to popular opinion, the Hebrew verb 'to know' is very rarely used in the sexual sense in the Bible. In fact, in only 10 of its 943 in the Old Testament does it carry the meaning of 'carnal knowledge.' Furthermore, the passage on Sodom is the only place in the Old Testament where the verb 'to know' has been given a gay sex spin."

"And, too, one cannot overlook Jesus' own interpretation of the story: Christ, speaking some two thousand years after the earthquake that devastated Sodom, claims that the city was destroyed for the sin of inhospitality: 'And whoever does not receive you, or listen to your words -- go forth outside that house or town, and shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that town.'" (Matt. 10:14-15; also in Luke 10:11-12)

"God had sent two angels to investigate the general wickedness of the town of Sodom and the angels are rudely, inhospitably received. To appease the rowdy mob, Lot tries to bribe the men by offering his virgin daughters -- and begs of them: 'Only do nothing to these men [the angels], for they have come under the shelter of my roof.'"

"Lot, his wife, and two daughters flee Sodom before its destruction, but Lot's curious spouse glances back and is 'sodiumized' -- turned into a pillar of sodium chloride, or salt. The destitute father and his virgin daughters visit the city of Zoar, but are unable to afford lodging there, and take up residence in a cave, wehre the teeenage girls soon grow restless."

"The older complains to the younger: 'There is no man in the land to marry us as is the customer everywhere. Let us give our father wine to drink, then lie with him, that we may have offspring by our father."

"They seduce their father. The older daughter gives birth to a son, Moab, who becomes progenitor of the Moabites. The younger daughter produces a son named Ben-ammi, who sires the Ammonites. Thus, these clans, both enemies of the Jews, were allegedly conceived (according to the Jews) through the crime of incest."

"The origins of the words 'Moab' and 'Ben-ammi' are uncertain. 'Moab' may mean 'from [my own] father,' whereas 'Ben-ammi' may mean 'son of my [own] people.' So linlguists conjecture. It makes sense historically: for centuries after the Israelite conquest of Canaan, the MOabites and the Ammonites remained perennial enemies of the Jews. Thus, the writers of Genesis were only too pleased to pen the folktale of their enemies' scandalous origins through incest."

"No careful reader of the Hebrew text can see this bizarre Sodom and Gomorrah escapade -- involving two angels in the night, a man offering up his virgin daughters, and subsequent conniving daughter-father incest -- as a seminal condemnation of homosexuality. Homosexuality, in fact, is not even directly implied -- while heterosexual prostitution and incest are stated explicity."

"Yet, today, many Christians overlook Lot's offering of his daughters to the mob, conveniently forget the daughters' seduction of their father, and see the destruction of Sodom as punishment for homosexual conduct."

"Some argue that the girls, believing the world had ended, seduced their father only to continue the species. But the girls had visited Zoaar, and knew the city had been spared; furthermore, the wine used to get their father drunk had to come from somewhere; they'd left Sodom empty-handed."

"The interpretation of the story of Sodom as the inhospitality of Sodomites to messengers from the Lord persisted in some circles well into the Middle Ages."

"The homosexual to the story originated with early Christian moralists who were bent on sexual purity -- for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals -- and only centuries later emerged as the predominant theme."

"To give this story an even more bizarre twist: according to one Jewish legend, both the men and women of Sodom were sexually licentious, and it was the WOMEN, in a worshipful wanton frenzy, who demanded sex with the two male angels at Lot's house -- and got it!"

"No one for a long time seriously believed the story of Sodom, written about 1400 BCE, had anything to do with homosexuality; not the ancient Jews; not even Jesus Christ himself. The people who developed that belief were early Christians. In Judaism, it is post-biblical literature that sees a homosexual element in the Sodomites' attitude toward Lot's male guests."

"Not surprisingly, once Christianity became the predominant religion of the Mediterranean region, the homosexual version of the story became prevalent, and 'sodom' and 'sodomite' became synonymous with homosexuals and their behavior."
 
Godless said:
Oh! G! thanks I'll point you to some controversial bible verses:

Humor: Isaih 16:11 Wherefore my bowels shall sound like a harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh.

A fart mind you, sounding like harps, and smelling like what I wonder? LOL :D

All of these are simple "accidental" misinterpretations on your part. "Bowels" in this context is better rendered as "heart", that's what my Bible says. Whenever something comes from your bowels, for example "i love you from the bottom of my heart", it means you are giving your all to it.

Cabinalism: 2Kings 6:28-29 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

Now I know there were desperate times, however I hope that this does not become a regular Christian practice, if again the human race falls under harsh nuclear war atacks or something.

The Bible never condoned this. Stop playing around, I know you accidentally missed the verse that came after:

30 When the king heard the woman's words, he tore his robes. As he went along the wall, the people looked, and there, underneath, he had sackcloth on his body.

Porn: Ezekiel 23: 19-21 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

Well I've met plenty of hookers and most of them do believe in god, they sometimes are even maried, this is just a job for them. But what's incredulous is that this is the bible, supposedly god's manual for being moral, and children do read the bible, yet this is the kind of crap it has on it's pages!.

Ok, ok, you accidentally took this out of context as well. The verse clearly refers to Samaria and Jerusalem. If you even read the verses in context, you would know that this is poetry that through play on words, records historically accountable events between these two and the Bablonians.

MHO, The bible should not be taken literaly, not as a quide for the human race, because if you were to read it, and look at the social problems of today the roots of all this social problems such as Pornograhpy, incest, murder, wars, are all based on the literature that men follow!. Mainly the bible, and quran.

Godless.

Well, seeing that I have shown you how you have simply taken verses out of context I don't see why your argument has any merit. Unless you actually have some valid points (not taken out of context like these) to prove your point? I await. :p
 
§outh§tar said:

FOR THE LAST TIME, the Bible does NOT condone Lot's actions. The Bible's standard for righteousness is NOT works.

So says you. But I do wonder why you don't point out, in relation to the bit about raping Lot, what the daughters' incestuous plot brings.

Getting back to our portion of the issue:

I feel you are misinterpreting the measure of Lot's righteousness.

At the outset, I'll say that's fair. However, I would contest your reasoning:

If Lot really was seen righteous by God (according to your argument), then we wouldn't need Jesus to die for sins because man really CAN become "righteous".

Obviously that is not the case.

Then why did God mislead Abraham?

Then Abraham drew near, and said, "Wilt thou indeed destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt thou then destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake." Abraham answered, "Behold, I have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Wilt thou destroy the whole city for lack of five?" And he said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there." Again he spoke to him, and said, "Suppose forty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of forty I will not do it." Then he said, "Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there." He answered, "I will not do it, if I find thirty there." He said, "Behold, I have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it." Then he said, "Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there." He answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it." And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

Genesis 18.23-ff

The reason I ask why God misled Abraham comes from applying your logic:

If Lot was seen righteous by God . . . we wouldn't need Jesus to die for sins because man really CAN become "righteous".

Accepting that logic, we can say that the Lord knew when He told Abraham that He would spare Sodom for ten righteous people that He would not find them. If we look, then, to verse 17, when God wonders whether He should tell Abraham what is about to happen. It seems rather extraneous in the first place, and furthermore is confusing. Why comfort Abraham with the idea of something that God knows won't happen? True, true, God needed to go down to Sodom Himself in order to see whether the rumors He was hearing were true (v.21), but doesn't that ignorance on God's part seem to beg questions?

The righteousness we are dealing with in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah is a matter of Lot doing the right thing.

Paul contended that there is “none righteous, no, not one” (Rom. 3:10). And yet Peter referred to Abraham’s nephew as “righteous Lot” (2 Pet. 2:7; cf. Acts 10:22). Do the Scriptures conflict? They do not. No one, aside from deity, is righteous in the complete sense; Lot was righteous relatively - as he stood in contrast to the men of Sodom among whom he lived.

It seems, then, that I agree with Mr. Jackson about that aspect of Lot's righteousness.

And within that righteousness is included the act of offering his daughters to be raped by a mob.

Therefore we can see that Lot's action was NEVER condoned

And yet His servant found favor.

Very simply:

• Homosexual sex (consensual or otherwise) = bad
• Offering your daughters for gang rape = not bad

It's in the Bible.

Lot was given passage from the destruction of Sodom. Should we say, then, that the nepotistic favor moved the Lord to allow an unrighteous man to escape destruction?

It seems to me that in the context you present, mere faith is enough.

I would disagree. Works will not get you God's blessing unless those works are the product of faith (Matt. 25); likewise, works indicative of a lack or rejection of faith, or of a corrupted faith, can get you disqualified (ibid).

Lot's action, in offering his daughters, is indicative of what, a righteous or unrighteous faith?

Lot's is a righteous faith. Were it unrighteous to offer his daughters for gang rape, the Lord would not have spared him.

Where else in life, §outh§tar, do we make such distinctions? Is not moral relativism a scourge of faith?

How does Lot's decision stand up to Deuteronomy 22? Lot was at the gate to the city, not out in the country. So tell me--if the crowd had accepted Lot's daughters for rape, should the girls have been put to death afterward in compliance with Deuteronomy 22? Or do we take a morally relative viewpoint and say that, given the sins of Sodom, and that crying out would not have helped them, this occasion was worth an exception?

If we must be perfect as the Father is perfect (Matt. 5), what does that mean for our daughters? I'm inclined to protect my daughter against sexual assault, but that seems to be in contradiction of God's way of doing things.

Why was Lot not destroyed? Because his offering the daughters was not wrong.
 
*Why was Lot not destroyed? Because his offering the daughters was not wrong.*

Therefore condoned by god, to be ritious, this makes this god of the bible, amoral and just as evil as satan is protrayed to be.

Godless.
 
Sorry T. but I just could'nt help my self. ;)

If one would wonder, at the cave the two daughters supposedly got their father drunk, so he wouldn't "know" that he was making love to his doughters, but for instance a drunk man does not eat his own feces, so therefore "Lot" most likely KNEW, he was screwing his daughters, plus the man needed to get a hard on for prenetation, if one is passed out of drungness nothing will get a rise of the phallus!!.

Godless.
 
While I disagree about the feces--not so much that a drunk man might eat his own, but rather that I doubt the stomach would take it if he'd had enough to drink to be convinced to do it--I do wonder how drunk he'd have to be to lay his own daughters two nights running. Third day ain't a charm, either. Can you imagine the hangover?
 
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