Original Sin?

Godless said:
Unexplained miracles do not happen to anyone. Most are made up lies, and deceptive, ominous "claims" of such miracles are told only to keep religious "dogma" going. With science religion is loosing it's grip. Hence the Reneissanse was the beggining of your end. However I do admit churches and religious dogma have survived, this only because they adapted to the new freedoms of free thought. I've shown what the churches have done to the unbelievers of the past, I've shown the discrepancies of the bible, it's contradictions, only to be refuted as "out of context" senteces, LOL, the whole fucking bible is "OUT OF CONTEXT" it does not make any sense.

Godless.
Click to expand...

Considering all your so called "contradictions" really were senseless interpretations and I actually went through and SHOWED the error, (not to mention you couldn't even refute the obvious things I pointed out), you shouldn't hide behind an accusation of not being "out of context", as I did not just say that, but actually EXPLAINED it to you. :D
 
Considering all your so called "contradictions" really were senseless interpretations and I actually went through and SHOWED the error, (not to mention you couldn't even refute the obvious things I pointed out),
Click to expand...

This a joke? LOL, LOL, your full of crap!!


You against a preacher turned atheist? LOL, Yea!!, they are not my contradictions they are in the bible. POINTED OUT BY A PREACHER TURNED ATHIEST!!!

I only merely copied and pasted!.

So you've shown nothing, "only claim it's out of context" you've got no explanation other than " I don't understand" as if you did? lol, here just answer a simple one and don't claim it's out of context OK!!.

Is it ok to kill or is it not ok to kill "unless the god demands it" in which case it's ok to kill right?.

Should we kill?

* Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
* Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

vs.

* Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
* I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
* I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
* Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
* Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

Should we steal or is it ok to steal, or should we only steal when "god" demands it in which case it would be ok to steal right?

Should we steal?

* Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
* Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."

vs.

* Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
* Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
* Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."

I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.


Well no contradictions here according to your "warped misinterpretation" of bible text, you only claim "it's out of context" lol, lol,


:D

Godless.
 
Oh!! yea I forgot, here is the guy I get my info from, so in essense your refuting him through me. He's a minister turned atheist.

look

So you know more than a bible scholar of 19 years? :rolleyes:

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGTTTTTTTTTTTTT!.

Godless.
 
786,

No one is perfect right? Well, except Jesus, being without sin...and even he was born into imperfect flesh, and tempted. The questions that you are asking regarding the apostles can be answered by what I was describing about the conflict between the spirit and the flesh. We all sin and fall short of the glory. Even the apostles...even Paul.

The bible is a book that was divinely written. It wasn't written in the intellect of a man, but the perfection of a spirit...the holy spirit. So its accuracy and content are not dependent upon the flesh of a man, but upon the inspiration of a spirit. The spirit simply used the flesh to procure the paper, hold and move the pen, and bind the pages together. I've experienced a bit of this myself, concerning this miracle that I have recently experienced. This guy...this famous guy that's involved...that was given the mark of the beast. I discovered this about him...god showed me this about him...through his work...that he is famous for. And god told me to write him a letter. And I said to god, "You've got to be kidding." What god wanted me to do seemed ridiculous to me at the time, and I was extremely initimidated. But after much apprehension and consideration, I sat down to do it anyway...and I was extremely amazed to find that what came out of me, was something that I did not write. I ended up writing two letters to this person. And during the writing of the second one, I noticed some things that confirmed what I had known after writing the first. And that was that I did not write it. I noticed that when I got up from a seated postition, and tried to walk, that my feet dragged the floor they were so heavy. At first I thought that my feet were asleep or something, but it wasn't the same feeling at all. I felt like I had weights on my ankles...I could barely lift them off the floor to walk. I didn't understand what was happening. And on the way to the bathroom...walking...god explained to me that a spirit is not used to the weight of carrying a body around...the confines of gravity. And so when a spirit is inhabiting your body, you feel the heaviness of it more profoundly. And when I finally got to the bathroom, I looked in the mirror to find that my pupils were about as big around as my iris'. I basically had black eyes...it totally freaked me out. The lights were on in every room I had been in, and there were no dramatic changes in the lighting from room to room. The lights in the bathroom were on, and there was no logical explanation for what I was seeing. Eventually, as I stood there, minutes later, without any change in lighting or reason whatsoever, my pupils flashed to the size of a pin head, right before my eyes. I stood there and witnessed a huge dramatic change with no rationale at all...there was no explanation for it whatsoever. I also noticed during the writing...when I went back...that when I wrote, I was in kind of a trance like state. I hadn't really realized it before, but my eyes were not following my hand as I wrote...I was just staring at one point on the page, and my hand was basically doing whatever it wanted. There was no extraneous movement of my body at all. I was trying to smoke cigarettes the entire time, as I was an avid smoker at that time, but once I would start to write, it's like I would forget about it, or not be able to smoke it somehow, and one after another, they would burn down to the butt between my fingers, without me taking a puff. This was getting on my nerves, so periodically, I would quit writing, and just sit there and smoke...which then I noticed that I was coughing alot when I did...which made no sense, as I was not sick, and was a 21 year pack a day veteran. I was also finding the same response while trying to smoke weed as well, and that was also unusual, as I was also an avid pothead. I also noticed that I would get high...while taking a break...and at the time I had some pretty good shit. But then as soon as I would start writing again, I would immediately lose my buzz. Which was also getting on my nerves.

So in essence, what I am saying is that it did not take a perfect person to write the bible. It took a perfect spirit using an imperfect person. And I've had a little taste of this myself, in my own life, just recently. The writing that came out of me was amazing...it was really beautiful, and really meaningful...to me and to this other person. I was completely astounded by it...and by the whole experience. But as you can see, I am not a writer...never have been and never will be. I'm not poetic and I'm not eloquent or artistic in nature at all...but apparently god is. I wrote that stuff back in March, and I'm still finding meaning in it right now...meaning that I had no understanding of when it came out of me. This whole ordeal has been mind blowing.
 
Godless: This a joke? LOL, LOL, your full of crap!!

Well no contradictions here according to your "warped misinterpretation" of bible text, you only claim "it's out of context" lol, lol.
*************
M*W: Well, Godless, there's no hope for SourStar, and you're right! He is full of crap, and he's warped -- just like all xians. He obviously is not willing to conduct an honest debate, but we should forgive him, anyway, because he suffers from ignorance, and you know what they say about ignorance -- it's bliss! xians are truly blissful people. They reek of bliss wherever they go, including here on sciforums.

There are so many xian web forums in cyberspace, why would any blissful xian want to be on sciforums Religion forum? Er, maybe, unless their motive is to evangelize to those of us who have already found the truth? I think any further discussion with one who is as blissful as SourStar is simply a waste of time.
 
Godless: Oh!! yea I forgot, here is the guy I get my info from, so in essense your refuting him through me. He's a minister turned atheist.

look

So you know more than a bible scholar of 19 years? :rolleyes:

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGTTTTTTTTTTTTT!.
*************
M*W: Great website! Thanks for sharing it. But... you know the xians here won't bother reading it. They're afraid they will lose their faith if they read the truth, so they avoid the truth to perpetuate the lies of xianity. How blissful can one become before it becomes a perversion?

Oh, by the way, I think SourStar's blissfulness is more than the law allows. Here in Texas, we would say that SourStar is "one taco shy of a combination plate."
 
*************
M*W: Hello, Hisprincess16, and welcome to sciforums where the truth about religion prevails!

You are correct, my dear, that the bible says absolutely nothing about "original sin." We all know "what" the Bible says regarding Adam & Eve and the serpent, blah, blah, blah..., but my question to you is, "why is having wisdom a sin?" Did God create the human race to be ignorant yet blissful?

Long before God created the universe and all the angels, one of
those angels, I'm sure you will recall, was the lucent one, the wise one, the light bringer, the Morningstar... ta... dah...! The one, the only, Lucifer himself, who was banished from the bright and starry skies down to the lowly dark red Earth of Adam.

Now, what that tells me is that if Lucifer was the FIRST sinner against the creator gods or "Elohim," original sin would be on the head of Lucifer and not on Adam & Eve. So, as fare as the first "recorded" humans go, they DO NOT bear the original sin as was post-biblically taught! After all, humans were created in God's "image," so we can't be all that bad.

Therefore, from Earth stage left enters the Serpent, the wise one, the one who knows all. But when did the Serpent arrive? Was it before Eve was created out of Adam's rib so the story goes? Had the Serpent been hanging out at the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil before that? There is no mention of him before Eve meets up with the Serpent. I think it's a peculiar thing that the Hebrew word for Eve is "hawwa" which means "the mother of all living things,just as the Hebrew word "hayya" means "to live." Suprisingly, however, is the ancient Semitic word "hawwa" which means (***no peeking***) the "serpent," which is the same etymological word which suggests that the serpent is ALSO the primeval progenitor of life! I have a few questions for you, "did the serpent create Eve out of Adam's body? (We must remember here that the word "adama" means "red Earth" or "Earthling." Adam represents the Earth and NOT the first "man!".

Further, "did the serpent have sex with Adam and begat Eve?" No, I don't think so. "Did the Serpent embody Adam (Earth)?" Yes, this is likely. "Are Eve and the Serpent one and the same?" (Remember, the Serpent represents wisdom, and Eve is the "mother of all living."). The Earth needed the warmth of the sun to melt the polar ice caps which created oceans, and then the Earth was exposed to the sunlight which created all life. Adam is the Earth, and Eve is the sun. The serpent sheds its skin and is "reborn," just like Eve, the mother-creator of all living things, the sun which provides Adam, the Earth, with all life! (Or maybe we could just call this phenomenon "EVE-o-lution!).

I could go on and on, and I will... Adam & Eve were not the first human beings. Adam & Eve were figurative characters in a story book. Therefore, Cain & Abel were also story book characters as well. They represented both good and evil in the world. Sometime later maybe we can discuss the third son of Adam & Eve who was called "Seth."

Please don't think I'm picking on you, Hisprincess, I'm not! I actually answered your post taking the opportunity to show SourStar the ignorance of his blissful delusions. It's really sad that he's too ignorant to understand the difference between literal fact and allegorical fiction that was written in ancient times!

Have a good day!
 
Godless said:
Oh!! yea I forgot, here is the guy I get my info from, so in essense your refuting him through me. He's a minister turned atheist.

look

So you know more than a bible scholar of 19 years?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGTTTTTTTTTTTTT!.

Godless.
Click to expand...

That is a silly argument :confused: I know plenty of Christians who have no formal education in theology and yet know MUCH more than many so-called scholars.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
 
M*W: Great website! Thanks for sharing it. But... you know the xians here won't bother reading it. They're afraid they will lose their faith if they read the truth, so they avoid the truth to perpetuate the lies of xianity. How blissful can one become before it becomes a perversion?
Click to expand...

M*W. the perversion already exists. Look at the catholic church with all thousands of people whom have claimed they were seduced, raped, and child molestation. The outright murder of an abortion doctor, only few feet from his office, Dave Koresh, Rev. Jim Jones, were assumed to be good leaders yet these two sob's got their followers killed. That's perversion. I read about a christian soldier in Irag who would only give Irag prissoners water to drink if they converted to christianity, (I lost the news on this one) trust me on it, I think it even came out on TV, when finally the US media started telling a bit of the REAL NEWS!.

No Southstar is just a mindless person who rather be blind. I've seen were they made a total jackass of him on another thread dealing with 2nd law of "thermodinamics" Hell I didn't even attempt anything about that, I'm only an atheist, not a physics mayor.

I refute theism not by science but by logic. The bible is not logical, it's contradictory, and shouldn't be used as a "guide" to live by. However I will say this about the bible, it has good moral teachings, though they don't coner morality, one can be moral and not religious. Morality comes from a sense of survival, not a spiritual god given guidance.

You know the way I am though, if I see a lot of people jumping on someone here for their right to write anything, (even if I don't totally agree with) I will
fight for them as well. So southstar can write all his rhetorical crap as much as he likes, stick around, I've seen people here be total fundies become agnostic, and some even atheists. I've been around these here boards for 4 years I've seen messiah's come & go, and southstar is not included in these messiah type. more like Leo Volont now there's a nutty one!!. don't ya think?

:D

Godless.
 
Lori_7 said:
786,

No one is perfect right? Well, except Jesus, being without sin...and even he was born into imperfect flesh, and tempted. The questions that you are asking regarding the apostles can be answered by what I was describing about the conflict between the spirit and the flesh. We all sin and fall short of the glory. Even the apostles...even Paul.

The bible is a book that was divinely written. It wasn't written in the intellect of a man, but the perfection of a spirit...the holy spirit. So its accuracy and content are not dependent upon the flesh of a man, but upon the inspiration of a spirit. The spirit simply used the flesh to procure the paper, hold and move the pen, and bind the pages together. I've experienced a bit of this myself, concerning this miracle that I have recently experienced. This guy...this famous guy that's involved...that was given the mark of the beast. I discovered this about him...god showed me this about him...through his work...that he is famous for. And god told me to write him a letter. And I said to god, "You've got to be kidding." What god wanted me to do seemed ridiculous to me at the time, and I was extremely initimidated. But after much apprehension and consideration, I sat down to do it anyway...and I was extremely amazed to find that what came out of me, was something that I did not write. I ended up writing two letters to this person. And during the writing of the second one, I noticed some things that confirmed what I had known after writing the first. And that was that I did not write it. I noticed that when I got up from a seated postition, and tried to walk, that my feet dragged the floor they were so heavy. At first I thought that my feet were asleep or something, but it wasn't the same feeling at all. I felt like I had weights on my ankles...I could barely lift them off the floor to walk. I didn't understand what was happening. And on the way to the bathroom...walking...god explained to me that a spirit is not used to the weight of carrying a body around...the confines of gravity. And so when a spirit is inhabiting your body, you feel the heaviness of it more profoundly. And when I finally got to the bathroom, I looked in the mirror to find that my pupils were about as big around as my iris'. I basically had black eyes...it totally freaked me out. The lights were on in every room I had been in, and there were no dramatic changes in the lighting from room to room. The lights in the bathroom were on, and there was no logical explanation for what I was seeing. Eventually, as I stood there, minutes later, without any change in lighting or reason whatsoever, my pupils flashed to the size of a pin head, right before my eyes. I stood there and witnessed a huge dramatic change with no rationale at all...there was no explanation for it whatsoever. I also noticed during the writing...when I went back...that when I wrote, I was in kind of a trance like state. I hadn't really realized it before, but my eyes were not following my hand as I wrote...I was just staring at one point on the page, and my hand was basically doing whatever it wanted. There was no extraneous movement of my body at all. I was trying to smoke cigarettes the entire time, as I was an avid smoker at that time, but once I would start to write, it's like I would forget about it, or not be able to smoke it somehow, and one after another, they would burn down to the butt between my fingers, without me taking a puff. This was getting on my nerves, so periodically, I would quit writing, and just sit there and smoke...which then I noticed that I was coughing alot when I did...which made no sense, as I was not sick, and was a 21 year pack a day veteran. I was also finding the same response while trying to smoke weed as well, and that was also unusual, as I was also an avid pothead. I also noticed that I would get high...while taking a break...and at the time I had some pretty good shit. But then as soon as I would start writing again, I would immediately lose my buzz. Which was also getting on my nerves.

So in essence, what I am saying is that it did not take a perfect person to write the bible. It took a perfect spirit using an imperfect person. And I've had a little taste of this myself, in my own life, just recently. The writing that came out of me was amazing...it was really beautiful, and really meaningful...to me and to this other person. I was completely astounded by it...and by the whole experience. But as you can see, I am not a writer...never have been and never will be. I'm not poetic and I'm not eloquent or artistic in nature at all...but apparently god is. I wrote that stuff back in March, and I'm still finding meaning in it right now...meaning that I had no understanding of when it came out of me. This whole ordeal has been mind blowing.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Sorry for the late response. I was off the forum for quite a while. But now I'm back.

You talk about the perfection of the Bible. That it was a perfect spirit using a imperfect human. I highly doubt this as being the case. The greek manuscripts are in bad greek. And all the manuscripts differ!!!! except maybe small fragments. The corruption of the Bible can be proven if one only looks at 1John 5:7. I'm sure you know the story.

This argument should be enough to refute the "perfection" of the Bible, as even the Bible scholars agree that some scribes "intentionally" modifed, and changed the "scripture".

But forget the history of bible lesson. One needs to go no further than the Book of Luke to know what really "inspired" these people to write.

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke 1:1-4​

His inspiration was other people, and who he wrote was for Theophilus. Not a Holy Spirit as many Christians propse.

I think this is sufficient proof that there is no inspiration by Holy Spirit. If you don't hink so then one needs to look at the differences in the manuscripts, and contradictions between the manuscripts.

Peace be unto you :)
 
Lori_7 said:
786,

No one is perfect right? Well, except Jesus, being without sin...and even he was born into imperfect flesh, and tempted. The questions that you are asking regarding the apostles can be answered by what I was describing about the conflict between the spirit and the flesh. We all sin and fall short of the glory. Even the apostles...even Paul.

The bible is a book that was divinely written. It wasn't written in the intellect of a man, but the perfection of a spirit...the holy spirit. So its accuracy and content are not dependent upon the flesh of a man, but upon the inspiration of a spirit. The spirit simply used the flesh to procure the paper, hold and move the pen, and bind the pages together. I've experienced a bit of this myself, concerning this miracle that I have recently experienced. This guy...this famous guy that's involved...that was given the mark of the beast. I discovered this about him...god showed me this about him...through his work...that he is famous for. And god told me to write him a letter. And I said to god, "You've got to be kidding." What god wanted me to do seemed ridiculous to me at the time, and I was extremely initimidated. But after much apprehension and consideration, I sat down to do it anyway...and I was extremely amazed to find that what came out of me, was something that I did not write. I ended up writing two letters to this person. And during the writing of the second one, I noticed some things that confirmed what I had known after writing the first. And that was that I did not write it. I noticed that when I got up from a seated postition, and tried to walk, that my feet dragged the floor they were so heavy. At first I thought that my feet were asleep or something, but it wasn't the same feeling at all. I felt like I had weights on my ankles...I could barely lift them off the floor to walk. I didn't understand what was happening. And on the way to the bathroom...walking...god explained to me that a spirit is not used to the weight of carrying a body around...the confines of gravity. And so when a spirit is inhabiting your body, you feel the heaviness of it more profoundly. And when I finally got to the bathroom, I looked in the mirror to find that my pupils were about as big around as my iris'. I basically had black eyes...it totally freaked me out. The lights were on in every room I had been in, and there were no dramatic changes in the lighting from room to room. The lights in the bathroom were on, and there was no logical explanation for what I was seeing. Eventually, as I stood there, minutes later, without any change in lighting or reason whatsoever, my pupils flashed to the size of a pin head, right before my eyes. I stood there and witnessed a huge dramatic change with no rationale at all...there was no explanation for it whatsoever. I also noticed during the writing...when I went back...that when I wrote, I was in kind of a trance like state. I hadn't really realized it before, but my eyes were not following my hand as I wrote...I was just staring at one point on the page, and my hand was basically doing whatever it wanted. There was no extraneous movement of my body at all. I was trying to smoke cigarettes the entire time, as I was an avid smoker at that time, but once I would start to write, it's like I would forget about it, or not be able to smoke it somehow, and one after another, they would burn down to the butt between my fingers, without me taking a puff. This was getting on my nerves, so periodically, I would quit writing, and just sit there and smoke...which then I noticed that I was coughing alot when I did...which made no sense, as I was not sick, and was a 21 year pack a day veteran. I was also finding the same response while trying to smoke weed as well, and that was also unusual, as I was also an avid pothead. I also noticed that I would get high...while taking a break...and at the time I had some pretty good shit. But then as soon as I would start writing again, I would immediately lose my buzz. Which was also getting on my nerves.

So in essence, what I am saying is that it did not take a perfect person to write the bible. It took a perfect spirit using an imperfect person. And I've had a little taste of this myself, in my own life, just recently. The writing that came out of me was amazing...it was really beautiful, and really meaningful...to me and to this other person. I was completely astounded by it...and by the whole experience. But as you can see, I am not a writer...never have been and never will be. I'm not poetic and I'm not eloquent or artistic in nature at all...but apparently god is. I wrote that stuff back in March, and I'm still finding meaning in it right now...meaning that I had no understanding of when it came out of me. This whole ordeal has been mind blowing.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Sorry for the late response. I was off the forum for quite a while. But now I'm back.

You talk about the perfection of the Bible. That it was a perfect spirit using a imperfect human. I highly doubt this as being the case. The greek manuscripts are in bad greek. And all the manuscripts differ!!!! except maybe small fragments. The corruption of the Bible can be proven if one only looks at 1John 5:7. I'm sure you know the story.

This argument should be enough to refute the "perfection" of the Bible, as even the Bible scholars agree that some scribes "intentionally" modifed, and changed the "scripture".

But forget the history of bible lesson. One needs to go no further than the Book of Luke to know what really "inspired" these people to write.

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke 1:1-4​

His inspiration was other people, and who he wrote was for Theophilus. Not a Holy Spirit as many Christians propose.

I think this is sufficient proof that there is no inspiration by Holy Spirit. If you don't hink so then one needs to look at the differences in the manuscripts, and contradictions between the manuscripts.

Peace be unto you :)
 
§outh§tar said:
Would you rather it be a vice?
Click to expand...

guilt most definitely should be a vice. especially unearned guilt. it is the worst of all human emotions.

the christian church has manipulated rational peoples sense of guilt as a tool of control for around 2000 years now. they have made people feel it at the tip of a sword or at the foot of the cross, they have used it to belittle and defile women, jews, homosexuals, and non-believers from all walks of life. all you have to do is get out a history book and look at the entire 16th and 17th centuries for examples of how religious guilt turned entire populations into little better than vicious animals.
 
Charles this is an old thread, SouthStar since then has become an atheist. However you are correct, quilt is one of the tools used by theist to manipulate the masses.

Godless
 
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