Only one God created this Universe!!!!!!
- Thread starter dattaswami
- Start date
Jan,
Further: Something capable of omnipotence, omniscience, etc, indicates levels of complexity far beyond the perceived complexities and order of our observed universe. With this in mind and using your own assertion above you must conclude that God was created, since, according to you, only an intelligent being could create something complex and ordered.
You have indeed unavoidably implied an infinite series by asserting that complexity and order require a creator, and God must be the ultimate in complexity and order and that would require a creator of the creator - ad infinitum.
But isn't God claimed to be of perfect order, which by your claim means he must have been created. So who created God?
Further: Something capable of omnipotence, omniscience, etc, indicates levels of complexity far beyond the perceived complexities and order of our observed universe. With this in mind and using your own assertion above you must conclude that God was created, since, according to you, only an intelligent being could create something complex and ordered.
You have indeed unavoidably implied an infinite series by asserting that complexity and order require a creator, and God must be the ultimate in complexity and order and that would require a creator of the creator - ad infinitum.
Godless said:
Take energy for example. Try to imagine it...energy, no beginning, no end. Think it's possible?
Can something occur, some sort of movement, in "the midst" of an eternal physical property?
No.
Physicality requires time.
Eternal is not time.
Eternal is always; not forward moving.
Think about it. Something physical that is eternal is IMPOSSIBLE(this would and does lead to thoughts of something metaphysical as being eternal). I hope you understand it now, if not I will attempt to explain it more in depth. But it doesn't seem to me to be a hard concept to grasp.
I've spent all my life thinkng about it!. And since there's no easy explanation, I don't create a kill to the problem. The kill would be to assertain a "god" did it.
Thus the easy answer to complex questions, the giving up of research, is to claim a god did it.
By giving this claim, one either accepts it or not. I choose to not accept such a concept, one that creates another problem. "What is god?" Energy is not god, God is a word with no identity, a meaningless word, given attributes that can't even be comprehended. Yet so many advocates claim, that one exists, when at the same time, and controversially claim god to be unknowable. So which is it?.
Godless
Jan,
How did God become intelligent?
If His intelligence always was, then why can't apparently intelligently working systems always have been, or at the very least the potential for complex sytems always have been present?
How did God become intelligent?
If His intelligence always was, then why can't apparently intelligently working systems always have been, or at the very least the potential for complex sytems always have been present?
Ggazoo,
Why is it difficult? We know from physics that mater and energy are interchangeable and that neither is ever created or destroyed. From this it is a simple step to imagine an eternal cycle of matter and energy interchanges.
Are you joking? An invisible and immaterial being of such incredible power capable of creating an entire universe from nothing. Riiight! And you are somehow claiming this is a credible idea?
I grasp it just fine, not difficult at all. But then again I have an interest in cosmology. And so far, the latest is the big bang never happened. Thus it's relevant that the evidence so far shows that the universe has existed quite longer than predicted, or for lack of better understanding. Has always existed.
click
Big Bang is just religion disquised as science
There's no logical evidence for this entity. No! god is devoid of "identity" It's only a figment of primitive men's imagination.
Godless
spidergoat said:
Who created God
God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.
Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul. Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.
For the sake of entertainment, God desired to create the Universe. This statement is in Veda (Sa dviteeya Maicchat). In this statement there is a very subtle intermediate stage, which is the essence of the desire to create the Universe. The desire to create the world is like the golden ornament but the essence of such desire is like the raw gold in which the ornament is not yet expressed. Such raw essence of the desire is pure awareness. The pure awareness is a special subtle form of energy, which is not qualified by any form. Such pure awareness is called as the spirit, which is not qualified and does not have any attribute. This is called as “Nirguna Brahman”, which means the pure awareness, which has no reference to the creation of the universe. It is a very critical and subtle point to recognize the pure awareness. Veda says that only very very sharp intelligence can grasp that critical state (Drushyate Tvagraya bhuddhya). Sankara, the topmost genius among the spiritual preachers could grasp that state and proposed the concept of Nirguna Brahman or non-qualified pure awareness. Such pure awareness is the first creation of God (Parabrahman). This first creation is almost as critical and unimaginable as the very Parabrahman itself. The only difference is that Parabrahman is absolutely unimaginable for any sharp intelligence, but this pure awareness is imaginable only for a very sharp intelligence. This pure awareness is called as Mula Prakriti or Suddha Sattvam or Mula Avidya or Mula Maya or the Spirit in general. The Parabrahman maintains such spirit and it is only an associated item and is the first created item. The word Mula means the first. This spirit is in the form of knowledge. It is aware of itself, which means that it is knowledge. Knowledge requires both subjective and objective characteristics. It is subject as well as the object. Therefore, it is called as knowledge or Sattvam. This knowledge is the first form of energy. Energy is always active. Action is the characteristic of Rajas. Such Spirit is unaware of its own creator who is the God. Therefore, it is having ignorance or Tamas. Thus, the Knowledge itself is action and ignorance. According to Gita Knowledge is Sattvam (Sattvaat Sanjayate Jnanam), action is Rajas (Rajah Karmani) and Ignorance is Tamas (Tamastva Jnanajam). Thus these three qualities are always inseparable. The pure knowledge (Suddha Sattvam) itself is pure action (Suddha Rajas), which is the pure ignorance (Suddha Tamas). Thus in the very first instant itself the three qualities are created simultaneously in the purest state. Since all these three co-exist, it is called as equilibrium of the three qualities. When the equilibrium is disturbed various items of awareness result in which the three qualities exist in various proportions. Such disturbance of the equilibrium resulting in various distorted items of the three qualities is the very creation. The various mixtures of these three qualities constitute this diversified universe, which is meant for the play of the God and for His entertainment. When the entertainment is over all the three qualities go into the equilibrium state. Thus the Universe is converted into Mula Prakruti.
God is in association with this Mula Prakruti in the beginning. At this stage the Mula Prakruti is only a creation or created item and cannot do anything further. Its equilibrium continues. In fact the Mula Prakruti is only inert and the continuation of such equilibrium is the inertia. God enters the Mula Prakruti and pervades it. Now this Mula Prakruti is electrified wire. It is the ignited stick and is called as fire. Now this Mula Prakruti becomes divine and is called as Brahman or the Holy Spirit. The Spirit, which is just the inert created item became Holy due to the existence of God in it. Now Brahman multiplies its little part of the Mula Prakruti in which, Parabrahman does not exist. This means that God enters ninety nine percent of Mula Prakruti and not one percent. This little part of un-divine Mula Prakruti is multiplied by the disturbed equilibrium and the Universe appears. Thus, the pure awareness in which God pervaded becomes Brahman. Now Brahman becomes the spectator of the Universe. The little pure awareness into which God did not enter is modified into the Universe in which God does not exist. Here the modification does not mean materialization. The modification means the undisturbed equilibrium being converted into disturbed equilibrium. In both the states the substance is only awareness. You can compare this to a day-dreamer’s mind. The mind of the day-dreamer is Mula Prakruti. A little part of the mind is converted into dream. The mind, which is not converted, is a spectator of the dream. The dreamer is identified with the spectator part of the mind. Thus the dreamer is witnessing the dream through his unmodified mind. The dreamer has not entered the dream and therefore is not multiplied. When the dream city is burning neither the spectator part of the mind is burnt nor the dreamer. The spectator part of the mind itself can be treated as the dreamer because the dreamer entered that spectator part of the mind and exists in it. Thus, Brahman, the spectator of the Universe can be treated as Parabrahman. Such Parabrahman who is the spectator of the Universe is called as Eeshwara. Thus, Parabrahman is the original unimaginable creator. Mula Prakrithi is the first created item, which is the pure awareness. Brahman is the major part of pure awareness in which Parabrahman entered and occupied it. The same Brahman enjoying the Universe by vision is called as Eeshwara. Neither Parabrahman nor Brahman nor the Eeswara has entered the Universe, which is the disturbed equilibrium of the three qualities. Thus, there is no disturbance in either Parabrahman or Brahman or Eeshwara. In Christianity God is Parabrahman. Brahman and Eeshwara are called as the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the substance with which the Universe is made of. The spirit is not Holy because God did not occupy it. Thus the Universe is not Holy in Toto. It is Holy with reference to the good devotees and the divine incarnations. It is unholy with reference to bad living beings and Saturn. Parabrahman who is a spectator for sometime develops a desire to enter this Universe in the form of a living being especially as a human being because the main aim is to preach the divine knowledge. Veda says the same (Tadevaanu Praavishat). This divine human being in which, Parabrahman or Brahman or Eeshwara exists is called as human incarnation or God in Flesh. The human incarnation consists of four items. The first item is God. The second item is the Mula Prakruti, which is the pure awareness or Brahman or Aatman or Karana Sareeram (Casual Body). The third item is the disturbed equilibrium of the three qualities called as Jeeva or Sukshma Sareera (Subtle Body). The fourth item is the Gross body made of five elements (Sthula Sareera) which is again imaginary only in view of God but a materialized form in view of other human beings. If you analyse any ordinary living being it contains all the three bodies except God. If we analyse any inert item of the world it contains only the Gross Body made of the five elements.
God should be understood as the unimaginable creator. Next God can be understood as the unimaginable spectator of the world. Lastly, God should be understood as the unimaginable actor who has entered the Universal Drama in the form of Human Incarnation.
At Thy Lotus Feet
Anil Antony
www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org
dattaswami said:
0 x Infinity = 0
hence why we say, that it would be foolish and infantile to say a god does'nt exist, or a yellow/pink polka dotted elephin does'nt exist, because we cannot possibly look under ever rock and stone in the entire universe and beyond.Lerxst said:
to find them.
therefore it is more sensible to go on, what we know, than what we dont.
be it a mathematical equation or a god.
do you realise that this statement, is making a case for your gods nonexistencedattaswami said:
all Dictionaries
unimaginable:
adj : totally unlikely [syn: impossible, inconceivable, out of the question, doubtful, fantastic, impossible, improbable, inapprehensible, incomprehensible unbelievable, unknowable, unthinkable,
your very last point was
" God should be understood as the totally unlikely creator. Next God can be understood as the totally unlikely spectator of the world. Lastly, God should be understood as the totally unlikely actor who has entered the Universal Drama in the form of Human Incarnation."
notice I've replaced "unimaginable" with "totally unlikely".
this is how all atheist think.
so well done for seeing sense.
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Cris:
WHY is it difficult? Perhaps because it is impossible for us to imagine something with no beginning or ending, as it defies our very nature? All of science, all of everything that we percieve is based on the idea that something came first and caused something else to happen. We are categorically incapable of imagining any other system.
Within our universe, this principle is true. Obviously, many recognize that there is a high probability for something outside of our own universe, or your theory would be widely accepted.
And I have already explained why it is not a simple step, rather an impossible one to imagine. It surprises me that you overlook this.
You would rather an invisible force we can percieve, capable of existing for eternity? We cannot understand the concept, yet we can understand and percieve the force that is able to be so? This is more plausible?
WHY is it difficult? Perhaps because it is impossible for us to imagine something with no beginning or ending, as it defies our very nature? All of science, all of everything that we percieve is based on the idea that something came first and caused something else to happen. We are categorically incapable of imagining any other system.
Within our universe, this principle is true. Obviously, many recognize that there is a high probability for something outside of our own universe, or your theory would be widely accepted.
And I have already explained why it is not a simple step, rather an impossible one to imagine. It surprises me that you overlook this.
You would rather an invisible force we can percieve, capable of existing for eternity? We cannot understand the concept, yet we can understand and percieve the force that is able to be so? This is more plausible?
Zappa said:
We? We who? Borg?
Certainly not 'we' as in all humanity? All living creatures?
Error remains error whether asserted in strong language or not.
Perhaps limiting the assertion to one's own 'personal' experience wouldn't invite instant 'correction' from someone with different 'personal' experience than yours?
c7ityi_ said:
Everything has a beginning and has an end.
Nothing has no beginning and has no end.
nameless said:
Explain how you can imagine/understand eternal, then. Negate my claim rather than just telling me I'm wrong.
Of course, you can't.
Eternal is always and forever. Never beginning, never ending. Circular concept. You are a finite being with a mind thinking parallel to linear time plane. Can YOU imagine a system that is outside of the human capacity to imagine?
Everything we do and percieve is predicated on cause and effect relationships. Can YOU imagine a system where these relationships are not present? If so, I'd be very interested. As would the entire scientific community - you may very well be the 8th wonder of the world.
Or perhaps you need to lay off of the LSD.