what then was imparted? illogic? would it make a whit of a difference to you if creationism were also taught in school?
On atheists and freedom of belief
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
what then was imparted? illogic? would it make a whit of a difference to you if creationism were also taught in school?
In many different ways throughout history. Purely looking at England I can point out scenarios from past times to modern times. There was a time here when it was illegal not to go to church and in modern times schools have to engage in daily worship that is broadly or wholly of a christian nature. Section 70 of the 1998 Act states that: each pupil in attendance at a community, foundation or voluntary school shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship. (Again broadly or wholly christian in nature). A "broadly Christian" act of worship must contain some elements which relate to the traditions of Christian belief and which accord a special status to Jesus Christ. ( Circular 1/94 , paragraph 63)
Yes, a child can withdraw their child from it. The thing is the above applies even to 5 year olds and - having taken them out of it - they end up sitting by themselves in an empty classroom, (I had the issue at my daughters school a few years back).
There are countless other examples, from flying planes into buildings to trying to hinder science, (stem cell), because you believe in invisible space fairies.
There's not so much an action as there is a simple request: Kindly leave your beliefs at home/specially erected buildings just for you to share those beliefs with other people that have them.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Honestly, not really. I think form is vastly more important than content and I was taught some truly pernicious shit in history and social studies, as it was. Was it as bad as it would have been in some Bible belt private school run by 'reverends'? No. Probably not. I do not think we were taught either logic or illogic. We were taught how to pass various tests via regurgitation. We were taught that our interests were not important and that learning is passive. We were taught that learning is like filling a can with items - our head, information. We were made into passive citizens who think action is shopping - by process of elimination, that is. Critical thinking was not taught and was often punished. Creativity was rarely allowed and was often punished. Exploration was rarely encouraged or was in excess of the curriculum.
Name me a political candidate in a "Western" country who has been successful in an election after "coming out" and declaring non-belief in a supernatural being.
S.A.M.,
how are you going to avoid the issue of the Quran (and even some countries today still) condoning murder as a punishment for apostacy? Do you believe this is wrong?
I notice you haven't taken your own poll. Can I ask you if you if you believe people should have the freedom to believe or not to believe?
S.A.M.,
how are you going to avoid the issue of the Quran (and even some countries today still) condoning murder as a punishment for apostacy? Do you believe this is wrong?
I notice you haven't taken your own poll. Can I ask you if you if you believe people should have the freedom to believe or not to believe?
is it working?
i say you have to engage the fundies in all of their battles cos if there are actually able to impose their standards on everyone else, it would be too late.
what do you do if a majority decides to go down fundie way? shrug?
what if flds takes over utah? mumble "its jes one state out of a bunch?"
can you live and let live a few jim jones type cults? i mean, like minded, ja?
i aint that complacent. neither do i ignore the ramifications and distinctions of differing beliefs. fore instance, the consequence of a belief in astrology vs a belief in allah......well, read up on some history and figure it out for yourself
It's very unlikely. As life improves, education improves and technology improves you find less people adopting ancient sky man idiocy as a world view. If we can prevent it from being shoved upon our children then we've made a step in the right direction.
To be honest but speaking from my personal opinion only: Yes. I don't care how many nutheads kill themselves. My only real concern comes with the safety of those that don't believe the crapola they do.
I suggest looking at my original post again. I said anyone can believe whatever they want to - it becomes an issue when it causes harm to others.
crap
creativity is overrated
science=for the most part, the advances are thru incremental gains and trial and error. the eureka moments are few and far between
rote and memorization aka read the fucking manual is like the little engine that could. society would be well served if people were actually able to apply the knowledge their respective degrees represent
i guess they were too busy putting their own spin on shit
ahh
you lack foresight
you ignore historical precedents
you demand casualties before you motivate
you shirk your civic responsibilities, citizen snakelord
/frown
ah
my apologies
you do make distinctions b/w astrology/whatnot (harmless) and religion (not so)
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Poo-poo.
First, science ain't the only game in town in those kiddies' futures.
Second, that last sentence could be seen as supporting your thesis or mine.
Third, we remember people who were good at those eureka moments.
Leaning by doing, Dewey, and all that, for example. Think of language teaching. All that grammar translation garbage. You remember words when you use them in real or pretend real contexts. Grammar slides in after and much of it can be picked up via use. There is a subtle or perhaps not so subtle hatred of language in the ways foreign languages tend to be taught. With similar problem in other subjects.
Which is what school is for, at least in the US: training citizens to be citizens, the subjects are quite incidental. Side note: school architecture in the US was designed along similar lines as prisons, consciously.
mindless soundbite
i'd say most govt type buildings are/were typically rectilinear boxes. vesting a deeper meaning to the similarity is unwarranted.
schools are like hospitals therefore kids are diseased
oh? what else is there?
perhaps this could be an op to show that even the most mundane of activities have a scientific underpinning
hmm
perhaps not too
Last edited:
I don't see any black Presidents either.
Since the Quran has no such issue it does not require my defense, as for laws, I take greater issue with rich white men still raping developing countries and indulging in large scale mass murder, while calling it free trade and birth pangs than with laws that have very little social outcomes.
Its a poll for atheists.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
They weren't designed like other government buildings, they were designed most closely to prisons.
Hm. I guess you're right, the only roles in society are working in science.
Oh, no. Quite the opposite. The underpinning of everything including science is intuition. From those underpinnings and tracked to varying degrees by intuition and rational analysis we have varying degrees of rigidity.perhaps this could be an op to show that even the most mundane of activities have a scientific underpinning
hmm
perhaps not too
But perhaps you had better public schooling than I did. I went to what were supposed to be the finest public schools on the East Coast of the US. We learned very little critical thinking....and all my other complaints above.
Anyway, we have wandered off topic, so I'll drop it here. (I did vote for you to be in charge of Sciforums, however unscientific I find many of your posts - (or because?))
Last edited:
Other opinion.....Not everyone is free to choose. In fact many are not. A lot depends on upbringing, where you were born, the political and religious agendas of certain states, and even peer pressure to some extent.
John:
Its a fact. 20,000 children die from its effects daily. See any atheists aka secular humanists frothing at the mouth over it?Now if only they were all Muslims, maybe someone would get excited enough to notice it.
http://www.globalissues.org/article/3/structural-adjustment-a-major-cause-of-poverty
Also, not relevant to this discussion. We can open a separate thread, if you like.
Its a fact. 20,000 children die from its effects daily. See any atheists aka secular humanists frothing at the mouth over it?Now if only they were all Muslims, maybe someone would get excited enough to notice it.
http://www.globalissues.org/article/3/structural-adjustment-a-major-cause-of-poverty
Also, not relevant to this discussion. We can open a separate thread, if you like.
Last edited:
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
They have to have it. Much as I despise religion, I am resigned to the fact that it's an instinctive belief paradigm that can't be eradicated by government repression. It may take thousands of years for humanity to advance to a religion-free society. We'll just have to be patient.
According to my libertarian principles. Consenting adults are free to do anything they want, so long as they cause no direct harm to others. That includes believing anything they want. If they cause indirect harm you have to sort it out through tort and easement law.
Most of the conflict between the religious and the irreligious is the result of governments overstepping the limits that a good libertarian society would have set for them. If everyone were free to choose the school his children attend and there were a rich variety to choose from, no one would have to care that some schools teach religion and some don't.
Die from what? I can't figure out what you're referring to.
If it's poverty, the biggest cause of the misfortune in the Middle East is the low status of women. As good socially conscious atheists we give almost our entire charity budget to the Central Asia Institute. They go into the cesspools of Islamic fundamentalism and build schools that have only one requirement: they must admit girls. They've built about 100 so far and have made a difference, one village at a time. In places where women are held back and kept in ignorance, civilization backslides.
The key to world peace and prosperity is educating our women.
*************John:
Its a fact. 20,000 children die from its effects daily. See any atheists aka secular humanists frothing at the mouth over it?Now if only they were all Muslims, maybe someone would get excited enough to notice it.
M*W: No one wants to see one child die much less 20,000 a day. It breaks my heart, and I am an atheist. I don't want to see anyone die. I wish I could take all the sick and dying babies home with me to love. Then there's the elderly I would love to love and care for. What I don't understand is why you think atheists are heartless pieces of shit? Atheists are generally humanists. How many christians or Muslims do you know who have compassion for their fellow human being? I don't know of any. I can only speak for christians since I was one. Even then when I believed the lie, I was still compassionate to those who were in need. Don't lump all atheists together, and don't even think about lumping theists together. It doesn't work that way. We are humans first then we decide what road to take. Theists have only a self-interest. Most atheists I know care about their fellow human beings.