Oil Reserves in the U.S. Upped

[Syzygys]

The reason that the Buffalo were hunted almost to extinction,

It is actually rather irrelevant for my point, and my point was, that when you have very high consumption rate with a very low reproduction rate the endresult is running out of the product...>>>and yes, you have to switch to alternative products.

Now let's get back to that whaling chart with the price for a moment. Oilprice quadripled in the last 4-5 years and production plateaued. It is quite consistent with the fact of peak oil (and the whalingchart), when even much higher prices can not rise production anymore...

 

[ElectricFetus]

Buffalo Roam,

The whaling industry was already in decline BEFORE petroleum hit the market, so free market had nothing to do with the decline in whale oil.

 

[iceaura]

But it still is a fact that the Free Market drove the Whaling Industry almost into extinction.

If you look at the production curve, you'll see a peak in whale oil in the late 1840s. After that peak - the first "peak oil" phenomenon - production fell even as prices rose.

Not exactly what the free market predicts, unless supply is somehow restricted. And there were no environmentalists to blame, then.

The first purpose drilled commercial production oil well in North America was Canadian, IIRC, and drilled in the late 1850s - about ten years after peak whale.

The stuff was totally inferior for the purposes of the time - foul smelling, expensive, difficult to handle and refine. But the oil economy was becoming desperate.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Buffalo Roam,

The whaling industry was already in decline BEFORE petroleum hit the market, so free market had nothing to do with the decline in whale oil.

Really? Again do a little research, the Oil Industry was already well established before the Whaling Industry went into decline, and it was because of the oil industry that whaling went in to decline, Kerosine was cheaper than Whale Oil for Lamps, and refined petroleum oil was cheaper then Whale Oil, for lubrication of machinery.

The major items supply by the whaling industry were,

. lamp oil (from sperm oil)
. margarine and cooking oil (from whale oil)
. candles, soaps, cosmetics and perfumes (from sperm oil)
. corsets and umbrellas (from whalebone)
. whale-meat for human consumption
. animal feed (from meat meal)
. fertiliser (from bone meal)
. string for tennis racquets (from tendons)

Not fuel to run industry.

The earliest known oil wells were drilled in China in 347 CE or earlier. They had depths of up to about 800 feet (240 m) and were drilled using bits attached to bamboo poles.[16] The oil was burned to evaporate brine and produce salt. By the 10th century, extensive bamboo pipelines connected oil wells with salt springs. The ancient records of China and Japan are said to contain many allusions to the use of natural gas for lighting and heating. Petroleum was known as burning water in Japan in the 7th century.[15

The Middle East petroleum industry was established by the 8th century, when the streets of the newly constructed Baghdad were paved with tar, derived from easily accessible petroleum from natural fields in the region. In the 9th century, oil fields were exploited in the area around modern Baku, Azerbaijan, to produce naphtha. These fields were described by the geographer Masudi in the 10th century, and by Marco Polo in the 13th century, who described the output of those wells as hundreds of shiploads. Petroleum was distilled by Persian chemist al-Razi in the 9th century, producing chemicals such as kerosene in the al-ambiq (alembic).[17]

Oil sands were mined from 1745 in Merkwiller-Pechelbronn, Alsace under the direction of Louis Pierre Ancillon de la Sablonnière, by special appointment of Louis XV.[20] The Pechelbronn oil field was active until 1970, and was the birth place of companies like Antar and Schlumberger. The first modern refinery was built there in 1857.[20]

Imperial Russia produced 3,500 tons of oil in 1825 and doubled her output by the mid-century.[5] After the oil drilling began in what is now Azerbaijan in 1848, two large pipelines were built in the Russian Empire: the 833 km long pipeline to transport oil from the Caspian to the Black Sea port of Batumi and the 162 km long pipeline to carry oil from Chechnya to the Caspian.

At the turn of the 20th century, Imperial Russia's output of oil, almost entirely from the Apsheron Peninsula, accounted for half of the world's production and dominated international markets.[6] Nearly 200 small refineries operated in the suburbs of Baku by 1884

The first modern oil refineries were set up by Ignacy Łukasiewicz near Jasło, Poland in the years 1854-56..[9] They were initially small as there was limited demand for refined fuel. They produced oil for artificial asphalt, machine oil and lubricants, in addition to Łukasiewicz's kerosene lamp. As kerosene lamps gained popularity, the refining industry grew in the area. The first large oil refinery opened at Ploieşti, Romania in 1856

The modern history of petroleum began in 1846 with the discovery of the process of refining kerosene from coal by Nova Scotian Abraham Pineo Gesner. Ignacy Łukasiewicz improved Gesner's method to develop a means of refining kerosene from the more readily available "rock oil" ("petr-oleum") seeps in 1852 and the first rock oil mine was built in Bóbrka, near Krosno in Galicia in the following year. In 1854, Benjamin Silliman, a science professor at Yale University in New Haven, was the first to fractionate petroleum by distillation. These discoveries rapidly spread around the world, and Meerzoeff built the first Russian refinery in the mature oil fields at Baku in 1861. At that time Baku produced about 90% of the world's oil.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Your grasping at straws. Oil did replace whale oil as lamp fuel until the 1870's, the first kerosene lamp did not even enter existance until 1857-58, and whaling production had peaked in 1850. Most of all the price of whale oil peak ~1865, which would not have been possible if oil had replace it, instead its price would have drop as no one would have bought it if a cheaper alternative existed, and whale oil would have been simply a by product commodity of harder to replace whale bone.

 

[Syzygys]

Really? Again do a little research, the Oil Industry was already well established before the Whaling Industry went into decline,

whoa, slow down for a moment. Just because oil had been used here and there in small quantity, that doesn't mean that was readily a subsitute for whale oil. Here you can read the history of whaleoil, how the rock oil saved the whales, if we can say that.

http://www.geocities.com/mudsmeller/history.html#whales

It looks like that the invention of refining and Admiral Drake's drill in Oil City came just at the right time, but a few years AFTER whaling PEAKED, due to overhunting.

The last sentence of the history says:

"Had it not been for the discovery of Coal Oil, the race of whales would soon have become extinct. It is estimated that ten years would have used up the whole family".

P.S.: Mind you, whaling peaked in 1845 and most of your dates came a good 10 years later. So you simple changed the sequence of events. Peak came first, solution and substitution second...

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Your grasping at straws. Oil did replace whale oil as lamp fuel until the 1870's, the first kerosene lamp did not even enter existance until 1857-58, and whaling production had peaked in 1850. Most of all the price of whale oil peak ~1865, which would not have been possible if oil had replace it, instead its price would have drop as no one would have bought it if a cheaper alternative existed, and whale oil would have been simply a by product commodity of harder to replace whale bone.

I am grasping at straws?

Do you know anything about history?

The first kerosene lamps were described in the 9 century;

The first kerosene lamp was described by al-Razi (Rhazes) in 9th century Baghdad, who referred to it as the "naffatah" in his Kitab al-Asrar (Book of Secrets).[1] A more modern kerosene lamp was later constructed by Polish inventor Ignacy Łukasiewicz in 1853.

Kerosene is a thin, clear liquid formed from hydrocarbons, with density of 0.78-0.81g/cm3. Kerosene is obtained from the fractional distillation of petroleum between 150 °C and 275 °C, resulting in a mixture of carbon chains containing 12 to 15 carbon atoms.

Kerosene was first described by al-Razi (Rhazes) as a distillation of petroleum in 9th-century Baghdad. In his Kitab al-Asrar (Book of Secrets), he described two methods for the production of kerosene. One method involved using clay as an absorbent, whereas the other method involved using ammonium chloride (sal ammoniac).[4] In 1846, Kerosene was refined from a naturally-occurring asphaltum called Albertite by Canadian geologist Abraham Gesner, founding the modern petroleum industry in the process. Gesner went on to establish his Kerosene Gaslight Company to market kerosene around the world in 1850. Scottish chemist James Young built the first truly commercial oil-works in the world at Bathgate in 1851, using oil extracted from locally-mined Torbanite, shale, and bituminous coal. Polish chemist Ignacy Łukasiewicz discovered the means of refining kerosene from the less expensive seep oil in 1856. The widespread availability of cheaper kerosene was the principal factor in the precipitous decline in the whaling industry in the mid- to late-19th century, as the leading product of whaling was oil for lamps.

 

[Syzygys]

Hey, I have good news, Mr Republican! W (your president that is) just ACKNOWLEGED literally peak oil!

You're running out of oil - Bush

PRESIDENT George Bush yesterday told leaders of the oil-rich states of the Middle East that they must face up to a future without their precious hydrocarbons.
In a stark warning, he said their supplies were running out and urged them to reform and diversify their economies. The outgoing United States president told the World
Economic Forum, meeting in the Egyptian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, that it was time to
"prepare for the economic changes ahead".

Mr Bush's family name is inextricably linked to the oil industry, and this was his strongest statement yet on the future of global supplies.

He told the conference: "The rising price of oil has brought great wealth to some in this region, but the supply of oil is limited, and nations like mine are aggressively developing alternatives to oil.

"Over time, as the world becomes less dependent on oil, nations in the Middle East will have to build more diverse and more dynamic economies."

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/You39re-running-out-of-oil.4095858.jp

P.S.: Who am I (and who are you?) to question the president of the USA???

 

[ElectricFetus]

Buffalo Roam,

Invention of kerosene lamp: Michael Dietz circa ~1858

again look at the time lines, whale oil peak and fell several years BEFORE oil production took it place.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Buffalo Roam,

Invention of kerosene lamp: Michael Dietz circa ~1858

again look at the time lines, whale oil peak and fell several years BEFORE oil production took it place.

c. 850: introduction of kerosene, manufactured from crude oil by distillation. Muslims called it white naphtha, or naft abyad.

Again, History, the 9 century, kerosene lamps were in use, in Baghdad, and were described by al-Razi (Rhazes), from your own citation (A more modern kerosene lamp was later constructed by Polish inventor Ignacy Łukasiewicz in 1853)

A MORE MODERN LAMP WAS INVENTED IN 1853, NOT THAT THERE WERE NO KEROSENE LAMPS, SOMEONE MODERNISED THE KEROSENE LAMP!!!!!!

The first kerosene lamp was described by al-Razi (Rhazes) in 9th century Baghdad, who referred to it as the "naffatah" in his Kitab al-Asrar (Book of Secrets).[1] A more modern kerosene lamp was later constructed by Polish inventor Ignacy Łukasiewicz in 1853.

Persian-born Muhammad al-Razi (Rhazes) spent most of his adult life in the late 9th century as a physician and chemist in Baghdad. In his Kitab al- Asrar, or Book of Secrets, he mentions the use of naffatah, or kerosene lamps, for heating and lighting. He gives two methods for making kerosene, one using clay as an absorbent and another using sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride). The distillation is to be repeated until the distillate is perfectly clear and "safe to light," meaning that the volatile hydrocarbon fractions had been substantially removed.

Distillation made possible the use of kerosene throughout the entire Middle East, bringing it to such places as Palestine, Yemen, the Hadhramut and Egypt, all of which had substantial deposits of either oil shale or bitumen. With either of these substances, a reasonably good grade of kerosene could be obtained by first extracting the oil by heating the rock, and then distilling the oil in the alembic. Speaking of the shale found around the Dead Sea basin, al-Dimashqi wrote: "The so-called 'stone of Moses's tomb' (may God bless his soul), found east of Jerusalem, releases naphtha when it is broken to pieces and then distilled in the alembic in the same manner as rose-water. When you light this rock it burns like wood."

 

[ElectricFetus]

fair enough, but that still does not change the fact that whale oil went out because of lack of whale not because of crude oil.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

The oil industry began over five thousand years ago. In the Middle East, oil that seeped up through the ground was used in paints, for lighting, and as waterproofing for boats and baskets. However, it wasn’t until the mid-1800’s that commercial petroleum (oil) production began here in the United States, with the completion of an oil well near Titusville, Pennsylvania.

Your time frame of reference is to short, and way to parochial, yes in America our oil production began in the 1850, but oil was in production and commercial use from the 7 and 8 century, in the middle east.


The History of Oil
in Azerbaijan

by Natig Aliyev

The history of Azerbaijan and its capital Baku is indissolubly connected with oil from the earliest days. In ancient manuscripts, written prior to the time of Christ, references are made to oil extraction from wells and its utilization in life, construction, medicine and the military. Baku is referred to in these documents.

Ancient Knowledge of Oil in Baku

More than 2600 years ago, people already knew the value of this "fire water." During the siege of Persia in 331 BC, Alexander the Great's tent was lit by fire vessels made of clay and filled with oil taken from inhabitants living near the Caspian seaside. Oil was one of the elements of the famous "Greek Fire" used by the Arabs as an incendiary mixture. It was used by the Greeks to burn their enemy's navy - an idea that many cities and fortresses would use themselves later on in defense.

The first reliable information about oil extraction on the Absheron Peninsula, where Baku is located, dates to the 7th and 8th centuries. At that time, the oil was taken primarily by very primitive or natural ways. In the 10th century, the Arabian traveler, Marudee, reported that both white and black oil were being extracted naturally from Baku.

Oil and the Zoroastrian Religion

The Absheron Peninsula was famous for its eternal fires - the underground fire gases rising to the earth's surface. Zoroaster established fire worshipping and Baku became one of their most sacred sanctuaries. People from throughout the world wished to visit and bow before the eternal flame. In the Baku region, there were three cult hearths or "Temples of Fire" - one in Surakhany, another at Pirallahy Island, and the third at Shubanu Mountain.

Commercial Development

The oil naturally promoted commercial development and ties with neighbors to the East, West, North and South. Carvans of camels loaded with vessels of oil exported Baku oil to other countries. To this day, the remains of two Carvansarays still exist, the Bukharian and Indian, providing evidence of the wide commerce with countries of Middle Asia and India.

As the demand for oil increased, people looked for new ways to extract the oil. It was in Azerbaijan that the first oil extraction took place. In Balakhany, one of the districts of Baku, there is a 35 meters deep well with stone at the bottom upon which is carved that it was dug out in 1594 by a skilled workman named Mamed Nuroghlu . A Russian scientist Gemlin who visited Baku in 1771 and mine-engineer Voscoboynikov in 1827 researched and described these wells and their technology. By the end of the 19th century, Baku's fame as the "Black Gold Capital" had spread throughout of the world.

Ancient Knowledge of Oil in Baku

More than 2600 years ago, people already knew the value of this "fire water." During the siege of Persia in 331 BC, Alexander the Great's tent was lit by fire vessels made of clay and filled with oil taken from inhabitants living near the Caspian seaside. Oil was one of the elements of the famous "Greek Fire" used by the Arabs as an incendiary mixture. It was used by the Greeks to burn their enemy's navy - an idea that many cities and fortresses would use themselves later on in defense.

The first reliable information about oil extraction on the Absheron Peninsula, where Baku is located, dates to the 7th and 8th centuries. At that time, the oil was taken primarily by very primitive or natural ways. In the 10th century, the Arabian traveler, Marudee, reported that both white and black oil were being extracted naturally from Baku.

Oil and the Zoroastrian Religion

The Absheron Peninsula was famous for its eternal fires - the underground fire gases rising to the earth's surface. Zoroaster established fire worshipping and Baku became one of their most sacred sanctuaries. People from throughout the world wished to visit and bow before the eternal flame. In the Baku region, there were three cult hearths or "Temples of Fire" - one in Surakhany, another at Pirallahy Island, and the third at Shubanu Mountain.

Commercial Development

The oil naturally promoted commercial development and ties with neighbors to the East, West, North and South. Carvans of camels loaded with vessels of oil exported Baku oil to other countries. To this day, the remains of two Carvansarays still exist, the Bukharian and Indian, providing evidence of the wide commerce with countries of Middle Asia and India.

As the demand for oil increased, people looked for new ways to extract the oil. It was in Azerbaijan that the first oil extraction took place. In Balakhany, one of the districts of Baku, there is a 35 meters deep well with stone at the bottom upon which is carved that it was dug out in 1594 by a skilled workman named Mamed Nuroghlu . A Russian scientist Gemlin who visited Baku in 1771 and mine-engineer Voscoboynikov in 1827 researched and described these wells and their technology. By the end of the 19th century, Baku's fame as the "Black Gold Capital" had spread throughout of the world.

 

[ElectricFetus]

It began, but what was it producing, by your logic whale oil would have never even come to be because cure oil was always there, first of all converting crude into viable fuels was not until the mid 1800's, and production of such petroleum products did not represent the majority of liquid fuel until years after whale oil peaked.

But if you still don't believe inthe hubbert curve how about caviar:

Your not going to tell me some kind of alternative to caviar stop sturgeon hunting and dramatically increased the price of caviar?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

It began, but what was it producing, by your logic whale oil would have never even come to be because cure oil was always there, first of all converting crude into viable fuels was not until the mid 1800's, and production of such petroleum products did not represent the majority of liquid fuel until years after whale oil peaked.

But if you still don't believe inthe hubbert curve how about caviar:

Your not going to tell me some kind of alternative to caviar stop sturgeon hunting and dramatically increased the price of caviar?

Believe it or not, there are faux cavar:

Flying fish, smelt, and salmon, sea urchin, shrimp, and scallop roe

In Scandinavia, a significantly cheaper version of caviar, made from mashed and smoked cod roe, is sold in tubes as a sandwich filling. When sold outside Scandinavia, in stores such as IKEA's Swedish food market, the product is referred to as creamed smoked roe.

An obvious sturgeon caviar imitation is Danish black coloured lumpsucker caviar, which is sold throughout Europe in small glass jars. It can also be found red coloured. A more expensive sturgeon caviar alternative, sold in Sweden and Finland, is the caviar from the vendace. In Finland caviars from the burbot and the common whitefish are also sold.

In the vegetarian foodstuffs market, Algae-based imitation caviar is produced and sold as a caviar alternative.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Believe it or not, there are faux cavar:

Flying fish, smelt, and salmon, sea urchin, shrimp, and scallop roe

In Scandinavia, a significantly cheaper version of caviar, made from mashed and smoked cod roe, is sold in tubes as a sandwich filling. When sold outside Scandinavia, in stores such as IKEA's Swedish food market, the product is referred to as creamed smoked roe.

An obvious sturgeon caviar imitation is Danish black coloured lumpsucker caviar, which is sold throughout Europe in small glass jars. It can also be found red coloured. A more expensive sturgeon caviar alternative, sold in Sweden and Finland, is the caviar from the vendace. In Finland caviars from the burbot and the common whitefish are also sold.

In the vegetarian foodstuffs market, Algae-based imitation caviar is produced and sold as a caviar alternative.

and that explains caviars price how? Thus facsimiles have been possible for decades why now do they become popular? When Galieo showed that planets were places, skeptics said satan must be playing trick with the telescopes optic, I think I understand your logic now Buffalo: deny at all cost of reality, like Saddams PR general: "there no Americans here!"

 

[Syzygys]

The oil industry began over five thousand years ago.

Dude, you are first trying to say that oil replaced whaleoil and that's why whaling went into decline. Now you are saying that oil had been being used thousands of years before whaling (which is true, but here we are talking about QUANTITY).
Now if the oil industry was such a big hot shot a thousand years ago, how come the whaling industry got such abig start 900 years later and run up so big? Because oil wasn't a competitor back in the early 1800s for whale oil.

If refinining hadn't come along in ten more years whales would have gone EXTINCT due to overhunting!!!

So stop messing with historical timelines and acknowledge that oil wasn't in the same class as whale oil until 1855+......

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Dude, you are first trying to say that oil replaced whaleoil and that's why whaling went into decline. Now you are saying that oil had been being used thousands of years before whaling (which is true, but here we are talking about QUANTITY).
Now if the oil industry was such a big hot shot a thousand years ago, how come the whaling industry got such abig start 900 years later and run up so big? Because oil wasn't a competitor back in the early 1800s for whale oil.

If refinining hadn't come along in ten more years whales would have gone EXTINCT due to overhunting!!!

So stop messing with historical timelines and acknowledge that oil wasn't in the same class as whale oil until 1855+......

And the thread isn't about Whaling, and the complex reasons that it was replaced by the petroleum industry.

Whales are truly organic, Biotic, they have a breeding cycle, and growth cycle, now oil is something entirely different.

The Biotic Theory, and that is all it is, a Theory, is the accepted theory because it is the oldest Theory.

Now as a Man with a open mind, I have subscribed to the A-Biotic Theory, and there are a lot of Scientist who forward this Theory and have provided a tremendous amount of information as to why they have come up with this Theory.

Even those scientist who subscribe to the Biotic Theory, admit that it is only a theory, and that they really don't know how oil is created.

Read both side, which I know that you haven't, ain't that right preppy.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

You sure are passionate about the modern lamp.

Well it seem that ElectricFetus needed to be shown what he missed, from his own citation, and the fact that Kerosene has been used in lamps from the 7- century.

Due they really read their citations? if they can make a major mistake in their reading of that historical information, how much information are they missing in the rest of their information that they use?

Both side of the story, or as Paul Harvey say's the rest of the story.

 

[ElectricFetus]

What Buffalo Roam is saying: "You got this wrong, therefore you must be wrong that 2+2=4!" Simple Ad Hominem Tu Quoque fallacy. How your reply to caviar going?

 

[Syzygys]

And the thread isn't about Whaling, and the complex reasons that it was replaced by the petroleum industry.

I used whaling because it is an EXCELLENT analogy for peak oil:

1. Although biotic, as long as the reproduction rate is much slower than the hunting rate, the curb is exactly the same as with abiotic resources.
2. You subscribe to the abiotic oil, so this is specially good example for you, because showing we still can run out of an abiotic and replenishing resource, if ... see point #1.
3. The price and peaking relationship is exactly the same as we expect/predict with oil.
4. There was a historical substitute what came in production with large quantities just exactly the right time, after whaleoil peaked. <<<that's what we hope for with oil peaking now...

Whales are truly organic, Biotic, they have a breeding cycle, and growth cycle, now oil is something entirely different.

Whatever happened to your abiotic/replenishing theory? If oil is constantly and quickly produced in the ground, the analogy is perfect.

The Biotic Theory, and that is all it is, a Theory, is the accepted theory because it is the oldest Theory.

God creating the universe is the oldest theory, but not the accepted theory today.

Now as a Man with a open mind, I have subscribed to the A-Biotic Theory,

You never said what is the RATE (the speed) of replenishment. Without that knowing and being signifficantly fast (let's say 50 years or less) the issue is IRRELEVANT!!!

Funny thing is that you don't even notice when you contradict yourself. Beside being historically incorrect when you are trying to prove that oil was a competitor to whale oil, before refinement, if it had been true, the whaling industry would have never been so big and successful as it was...

P.S.: I noticed you quietly haven't mentioned the president's remark on peak oil. I understand....