Objective Morality and Atheism

[Norsefire]

It would if everyone would see things your way.

No. People still agree on morals, even if morals are subjective.

i.e, not every single individual has a unique moral code although that is possible; we still tend towards specific patterns

Most morals are based on two premises: that either individual freedom/peace is the determining factor of what is moral, or culture/tradition is the determining factor of what is moral

 

[spidergoat]

Its a sad state when atheists need to tell people its okay to be atheist.

War, and the superior comes out the victor.

Had Hitler won, would the extermination of Jews have been viewed as bad? I doubt it. It would've been viewed as a necessary good.

I was considered bad by Germans at the time! Not all of them, obviously, but the more morally inclined ones. Many members of the German military were anti-Hitler. Who do you think tried to kill him once?

 

[Norsefire]

I was considered bad by Germans at the time! Not all of them, obviously, but the more morally inclined ones. Many members of the German military were anti-Hitler. Who do you think tried to kill him once?

Those would have been eliminated. By now, Hitler's propaganda would've made it a good.

One could easily say that the "evil" and morally corrupt officers attempted to assasinate the dear Fuhrer and ruin his plans for the greater good.

 

[Enmos]

No. People still agree on morals, even if morals are subjective.

i.e, not every single individual has a unique moral code although that is possible; we still tend towards specific patterns

Most morals are based on two premises: that either individual freedom/peace is the determining factor of what is moral, or culture/tradition is the determining factor of what is moral

So you have decided to argue against yourself now ?

 

[Norsefire]

So you have decided to argue against yourself now ?

How am I doing that?

I state: morality is subjective, although there are still certain patterns to human morals. Nonetheless you don't have to follow them, people just usually do

 

[Enmos]

How am I doing that?

I state: morality is subjective, although there are still certain patterns to human morals. Nonetheless you don't have to follow them, people just usually do

So what happens when I kill your mom and I think it's perfectly moral for me to do so. Will you let me be or will you be a hypocrite ?

 

[Norsefire]

So what happens when I kill your mom and I think it's perfectly moral for me to do so. Will you let me be or will you be a hypocrite ?

That is conflict. There is nothing hypocritical about acting on your morals. I would still view what you're doing as wrong and attempt to stop you.

Just because morals are subjective doesn't mean you have to respect others' beliefs.

 

[Enmos]

That is conflict. There is nothing hypocritical about acting on your morals. I would still view what you're doing as wrong and attempt to stop you.

Just because morals are subjective doesn't mean you have to respect others' beliefs.

And you would be killed. Where's the justice in that ?

 

[Norsefire]

And you would be killed. Where's the justice in that ?

Justice, the passing of judgement, can only be done by the strongest.

What alternative is there?

 

[Enmos]

Justice, the passing of judgement, can only be done by the strongest.

What alternative is there?

So.. you don't see a problem arising ?
So killing your mom because I just felt like it, and then you because you came after me.. is perfectly alright then ?
Nobody blames me afterwards because I was the strongest, right ?

 

[Norsefire]

So.. you don't see a problem arising ?
So killing your mom because I just felt like it, and then you because you came after me.. is perfectly alright then ?
Nobody blames me afterwards because I was the strongest, right ?

No, they can still blame you. What I am saying is, even if they blame you and hate for it...if they are unable to act, what does it matter?

 

[Enmos]

No, they can still blame you. What I am saying is, even if they blame you and hate for it...if they are unable to act, what does it matter?

lol
They can act, but what if I prove myself the strongest again ?
Now translate to nations. Is that what you want ?

 

[Norsefire]

lol
They can act, but what if I prove myself the strongest again ?

Then that is my point, what does it matter?

Even if people call you immoral, if they cannot stop you then what does it matter? Even if theft is immoral, does it prevent you from being mugged in an alleyway? Thus it is might that makes right.

One could use one's own might for the protection of others, for instance. But it is only might that enables him to do so

Now translate to nations. Is that what you want ?

Even if I didn't want it, as I said it's the reality. The world isn't made of cookies and cream; it's a cold, hard reality. Whether I want it or not won't stop Nazi Germany from conquering me, only my guns will.

I don't have any guns but you get my point.

 

[Enmos]

Then that is my point, what does it matter?

Even if people call you immoral, if they cannot stop you then what does it matter? Even if theft is immoral, does it prevent you from being mugged in an alleyway? Thus it is might that makes right.

One could use one's own might for the protection of others, for instance. But it is only might that enables him to do so

Even if I didn't want it, as I said it's the reality. The world isn't made of cookies and cream; it's a cold, hard reality. Whether I want it or not won't stop Nazi Germany from conquering me, only my guns will.

I don't have any guns but you get my point.

So is that what you want or not ?

Morals prevent violence in innumerable cases every day. It works, and that's why it's around.
"Might makes right" is immoral everywhere.

 

[Norsefire]

Morals prevent violence in innumerable cases every day. It works, and that's why it's around.

Not when violence occurs. I get what you mean, that every day people constrain themselves because they know what they do is wrong.........but that isn't my point. Not everybody will, and the ones that don't.........morality won't stop them.

"Might makes right" is immoral everywhere.

Although morality won't stop the thieves or murderers or rapists. What will you do, throw it at them? No, that is why we have police.

 

[Enmos]

Not when violence occurs. I get what you mean, that every day people constrain themselves because they know what they do is wrong.........but that isn't my point. Not everybody will, and the ones that don't.........morality won't stop them.

That's where you are wrong. Morality DOES stop them. That's what the law and police force are for.
What do you think the law is ?

Although morality won't stop the thieves or murderers or rapists. What will you do, throw it at them? No, that is why we have police.

See above.

 

[Norsefire]

No, force stops them. The law without enforcement is useless; so it's force that stops them.

One could argue that the law isn't necessarily dependent on "Morality"

 

[Enmos]

No, force stops them. The law without enforcement is useless; so it's force that stops them.

One could argue that the law isn't necessarily dependent on "Morality"

You're right.

 

[Norsefire]

I know.
I really am in this case because you are unable to demonstrate how an idea can have physical power. And without physical power, how do you stop wrongdoers? Do you throw ideas at them?

 

[Enmos]

I know.
I really am in this case because you are unable to demonstrate how an idea can have physical power. And without physical power, how do you stop wrongdoers? Do you throw ideas at them?

Yep, you really are right.