'No evidence' for extraterrestrials, says White House,....

[adoucette]

We might see a type 3 civilization, I am open to that, I am not too sure about a type 2 civilization mind you. They are capable of harnessing power from their sun (and I don't mean solar power), I don't think that would be too noticable.

That's not exactly what the scale says:

TYPE II: A civilization capable of utilizing and channeling the entire radiation output of its star.
The energy utilization would then be comparable to the luminosity of our Sun, about 4 x 10 to the 26 power Watts.

http://www.coseti.org/lemarch1.htm

So YES, that much power, CHANNELED into a usable form needed by a civilization is very likely something that would stick out if it was on our side of the Galaxy if it started (and continued for a long time) somewhere within the last 50,000 years. There is no evidence of this however.

I guess it really depends. We certainly have not measured enough space to rule out either civilizations.

Not rule out, but no evidence of any life has been seen and we've been looking over huge times and distances, so it can be fairly reasonable to say that it is unlikely that there are any type 2/3 civilizations near us and so it's highly unlikely any civilization could have come here.

I feel like sometimes you don't quite 'grasp' the massive landscape of the universe... it is simply huge! How you can think we would know of things by now, is beyond me!! What we have seen must only be the tip of a pin.

You cannot understand these concepts if you say the more we look into space, the more unlikely it is. To be honest, what we have seen is but a fraction, and the likelihood is still very high that there is. I say high, because of how much space there is to consider and how many planets contained therein. The amount of space we must have measured intensely must be only a few percentage, maybe less. (And I mean a proper intense study). I don't mean taking a picture where you can have loads of galaxies in one frame, like which NASA take pics of.

Well you haven't given me one reason I should consider the size of the universe.

Our own galaxy has ~300 billion suns, and is over 100,000 Light Years across in size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way

Can you conceive of a civilization which would run out of 100s of Billions of solar systems to explore within 50,000 LY such that they felt they needed to go 2.5 MILLION light years just to explore what would be essentially the exact same type stars and planets?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy

You might notice the definition implicit in Type 3

TYPE III

Characteristics:

Galactic Civilization.

Interstellar communication/travel.

So again, even when these definitions were created it was realized there is no reason for an advanced civilization to leave it's home Galaxy.

Or the Drake Equation, which we have discussed, is about the likelihood of communicating life in OUR Galaxy, not the Universe, etc etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

Now if one considers a civilization that IS that long lived and that prolific such that they have exhausted their own Galaxy and are branching out, and are capable of travelling MILLIONS Of Light Years to the nearest other Galaxies, the CHANCES that one of those Galaxies is the Milky Way is still only roughly 1 in 40 Billion.

Compare that to the odds of winning the MegaMillion Lottery. 5 numbers are drawn from a group of 56 and 1 number from a group of 46, The chances of matching all 6 numbers to win is only 1 in 175,711,536. A piece of cake in comparison.

 

[gmilam]

Thinking there are no other intelligent lifeforms in this universe, will perhaps be a niave and selfish proposition.

I don't hear anyone saying that. The question is intelligent life with technology to travel the stars.

 

[river]

“ Originally Posted by river
well tell me how to lift 70 ton blocks of granite 175ft up off the ground back then , then ? ”

Oh deary me. Go to Egypt. I have.

fine

If you go to the granite quarry at Aswan, you'll see where the blocks were chipped away using manual tools, there are still incomplete blocks, roughly hewn, and a broken needle, still attached to the bedrock.

what manual tools , at the time could chip away granite ?

 

[Reiku]

I don't hear anyone saying that. The question is intelligent life with technology to travel the stars.

There are many scales of intelligent life we must consider. Even the more experienced, more intelligent lifeforms have a rightful place in this universe considering the amount of planets we have not observed, galaxies we have not dissected.

 

[river]

There are many scales of intelligent life we must consider. Even the more experienced, more intelligent lifeforms have a rightful place in this universe considering the amount of planets we have not observed, galaxies we have not dissected.

agreed
can the many grasp this though ...

 

[Ophiolite]

what manual tools , at the time could chip away granite ?

Other stones. Many large hammer stones have been found in the quarries. The bulk of the pyramids were constructed using softer rocks such as limestone which could be readily cut with copper tools.

 

[Reiku]

agreed
can the many grasp this though ...

Well adoucette seems to have problems grasping that what we have observed in the universe is about a fraction of what is really there. They seem to be under the delusion that (even though we have studied deep space using advanced telecopes for such a short time) the probability for life is rapidly decreasing.

That is folly. Complete rubbish.

We haven't even studied enough to even say there has been a remarkable statistical change against the arguement in question... so no... I doubt many will grasp these things.

 

[phlogistician]

what manual tools , at the time could chip away granite ?

How come you don't know this already? If you have some notion aliens had to be involved because the task was too difficult for humans, the only reasonable way to come to that conclusion is to have studied the accepted method of construction in detail.

You should then know that stone and copper tools were used by the masons of the age.

But of course, this still doesn't answer why you single out the construction on the pyramids as being extraordinary, when you don't question the pillaging of the giant obelisks and their removal to other countries, by ancient Romans etc. Or why you don't marvel at the construction of Lincoln Cathedral, which became the largest structure on Earth, surpassing the Great Pyramid.

Here's a picture from the inside of Lincoln Cathedral:

And the ascent inside the Great Pyramid to the burial chamber:

So, understand this,... the Cathedral is taller, and more decorative, a more complex shape, with bigger expanses than the Egyptians could engineer (go to Karnak and see how close the columns are together, then see the majesty of the vaulted arches in Lincoln). But you doubt humans could pile up a bunch of blocks, and smooth the outer and inner layers? But it's achievable to make vaulted arches, using no more than wooden scaffolds and rope?

Don't get me wrong, the Great Pyramid is impressive, but simply because it is big. Visiting it, you understand the sheer effort it took to create, but it's not actually that complex.

 

[adoucette]

Well adoucette seems to have problems grasping that what we have observed in the universe is about a fraction of what is really there. They seem to be under the delusion that (even though we have studied deep space using advanced telecopes for such a short time) the probability for life is rapidly decreasing.

Nope, you just ignore posts that you can't come up with a rational argument for.
Indeed, your entire argument is that of course alien civilizations can easily travel between stars and galaxies with absolutely no evidence to support that assertion. Indeed, you haven't come up with a single reason why even a very advanced civilization, that was capable of travel at near C, would travel outside its home galaxy of 300 to 600 billion suns or if they could even do FTL travel, why out of the 100 billion other galaxies to choose from, they would come here.

 

[Reiku]

Well, adoucette, no offense, but you don't think ''physics'' at all.

For instance, your question, ''Indeed, you haven't come up with a single reason why even a very advanced civilization, that was capable of travel at near C, would travel outside its home galaxy of 300 to 600 billion suns or if they could even do FTL travel,'' is a non-problem. If they can travel at superluminal speeds, I assure you, taking a trip from one galaxy to another would be like taking a strole to your nextdoor neighbour to ask for sugar for your tea.

Secondly, I have provided a reason why they may have came here. I gave you one the other day, In fact I gave you two.

 

[phlogistician]

Secondly, I have provided a reason why they may have came here. I gave you one the other day, In fact I gave you two.

If they have such technology, there's nothing here that would interest them, or require them to visit in person.

 

[Reiku]

If they have such technology, there's nothing here that would interest them, or require them to visit in person.

What a niave assertion.

Do animals in the outback have lazer guns we are interested in?

If not, why do we go hide behind bushes and observe their actions?

 

[adoucette]

Well, adoucette, no offense, but you don't think ''physics'' at all.

For instance, your question, ''Indeed, you haven't come up with a single reason why even a very advanced civilization, that was capable of travel at near C, would travel outside its home galaxy of 300 to 600 billion suns or if they could even do FTL travel,'' is a non-problem. If they can travel at superluminal speeds, I assure you, taking a trip from one galaxy to another would be like taking a strole to your nextdoor neighbour to ask for sugar for your tea.

BS

Galaxies are generally pretty far apart, and for our purposes we only care about the closest galaxies.

Andromeda is ~2,500,000 Light Years from us.

Even if you can go 10,000 times the speed of light, that's still too far to traverse.

So no, it's not like strolling to your nextdoor neighbor.

More to the point, with ~300 Billion stars within ~100,000 light years or so what's the point?

Secondly, I have provided a reason why they may have came here. I gave you one the other day, In fact I gave you two.

Must not have made much of an impression.

 

[gmilam]

If they can travel at superluminal speeds, I assure you, taking a trip from one galaxy to another would be like taking a strole to your nextdoor neighbour to ask for sugar for your tea.

Except:

1. According to our current understanding, superluminal speed is not possible.
2. We hadn't sent out any signals to draw attention to the fact that something is going on here until very recently.

 

[adoucette]

What a niave assertion.

Do animals in the outback have lazer guns we are interested in?

If not, why do we go hide behind bushes and observe their actions?

Well because it's easy to get there, we know it's there before we leave on the trip and we know there are going to be life forms there.

Something beings in another galaxy could not know of us.

 

[Reiku]

BS

Galaxies are generally pretty far apart, and for our purposes we only care about the closest galaxies.

Andromeda is ~2,500,000 Light Years from us.

Even if you can go 10,000 times the speed of light, that's still too far to traverse.

So no, it's not like strolling to your nextdoor neighbor.

More to the point, with ~300 Billion stars within ~100,000 light years or so what's the point?



Must not have made much of an impression.

Not only do you not talk physics, you don't understand it either. Nice combo going for future discussions.

Anyway, a faster than light object oscillates in time. You never heard

The bar tender says, ''we don't serve tachyons at the bar''
A tachyon walks into a bar.

Objects moving faster than light implies that they'd get here too early, not too late!

 

[Reiku]

Well because it's easy to get there, we know it's there before we leave on the trip and we know there are going to be life forms there.

Something beings in another galaxy could not know of us.

I feel sometimes you intentionally fail to think outside the box.

Who is to say they haven't been here for a very long time, stumbled across us? Remember what I said, if the universe is teeming with life, then you would expect a small handful of civilizations to atleast stumble across each other, that is just an exponentially increasing fact as time would go on.

Other possible things to consider, is that they will have techniques to search for habitable galaxies that will be far advanced to our own. You are limiting aliens to our finite influences on this universe. You are personalizing aliens on your own inferior ways.

 

[Reiku]

Except:

1. According to our current understanding, superluminal speed is not possible.
2. We hadn't sent out any signals to draw attention to the fact that something is going on here until very recently.

According to our understandings, superluminal speeds is possible. Where did you get that from?

 

[adoucette]

Objects moving faster than light implies that they'd get here too early, not too late!

You don't go back in time.

 

[Reiku]

You don't go back in time.

Who said you can't? Have you ever sped across the gaalxy at superluminal speeds? Do you know something I don't?