'No evidence' for extraterrestrials, says White House,....

[Ivan Seeking]

You guys aren't really going to argue about the pyramids, are you?

River, why do you think a mystery stands as evidence for ET? Is this how you explain all apparent mysteries?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No, the link explains the methods and while we might not exactly know how they were built, there is nothing to suggest that humans didn't build them.

It's NOT rocket science.

That isn't the point. You made it sound it's all resolved when it's not. That doesn't help your cause.

 

[river]

Lots of them used together I presume.

Are you saying you think it's IMPOSSIBLE, given the massive work force available to them that they could not do so (remember, they don't have to lift it, only drag it)?

your not addressing the block , tackle and rope strength needed to do the job

address this problem

 

[Reiku]

You guys aren't really going to argue about the pyramids, are you?

River, why do you think a mystery stands as evidence for ET? Is this how you explain all apparent mysteries?

No, I have no intentions talking about the pyramids. Tricks are kids.

 

[adoucette]

your not addressing the block , tackle and rope strength needed to do the job

address this problem

What problem?

Only 6 of these ropes would be needed to do it and only about 10 of these manila ropes would do it with a good margin of safety, particularly if 30 or so large strong men were pushing/levering it from behind.

http://www.knotandrope.com/Store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=10&idcategory=3

Maybe their ropes were half the strength, and they needed to use 20 ropes?

So what? They had the time and the manpower and the materials to do so and that's still a FAR more reasonable of an answer than Aliens came down and helped them.

One of the things that most impressed me, though, was the fact that in 21 days, 12 men in bare feet, living out in the Eastern Desert, opened a new quarry in about the time we needed stone for our NOVA Pyramid, and in 21 days they quarried 186 stones. Now, they did it with an iron cable and a winch that pulled the stone away from the quarry wall, and all their tools were iron. But other than that they did it by hand.

So I said, taking just a raw figure, if 12 men in bare feet—they lived in a lean-to shelter, day and night, out there—if they can quarry 186 stones in 21 days, let's do the simple math and see, just in a very raw simplistic calculation, how many men were required to deliver 340 stones a day, which is what you would have to deliver to the Khufu Pyramid to build it in 20 years. And it comes out to between 400 and 500 men. Now, I was bothered by the iron tools, especially the iron winch that pulled the stone away from the quarry walls, so I said, let's put in an additional team of 20 men, so that 12 men become 32, and now let's run the equation. Well, it turns out that even if you give great leeway for the iron tools, all 340 stones could have been quarried in a day by something like 1,200 men. And that's quarried locally at Giza—most of the stone is local stone.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/who-built-the-pyramids.html

Like I said, it isn't rocket science.

 

[river]

“ Originally Posted by river
your not addressing the block , tackle and rope strength needed to do the job

address this problem ”

What problem?

140,000lbs

Only 6 of these ropes would be needed to do it and only about 10 of these manila ropes would do it with a good margin of safety, particularly if 30 or so large strong men were pushing/levering it from behind.

six ropes lift 140,000lbs , really , by 30 people

ohhhh... please

http://www.knotandrope.com/Store/pc/...0&idcategory=3

Maybe their ropes were half the strength, and they needed to use 20 ropes?

which equals 7000lbs each rope

So what? They had the time and the manpower and the materials to do so and that's still a FAR more reasonable of an answer than Aliens came down and helped them.

more reasonable than aliens.......

 

[adoucette]

140,000lbs

And I showed that wasn't an insurmountable problem

six ropes lift 140,000lbs , really , by 30 people

ohhhh... please

That's NOT what I wrote.

I didn't say how many people were pulling on the TEN ropes I suggested, I pointed out that in addition to the people pulling on the ropes (they would use as many as needed) you could also have about 30 men pushing/levering the block from behind.

about 10 of these manila ropes would do it with a good margin of safety, particularly if 30 or so large strong men were pushing/levering it from behind.

Of course the majority of the stones were FAR smaller.

more reasonable than aliens.......

Yes, since there is absolutely NO evidence of aliens or the need for alien technology to build them.

 

[river]

“ more reasonable than aliens....... ”

Yes, since there is absolutely NO evidence of aliens or the need for alien technology to build them.

precision and

what kind of tools did they have to form granite ?

 

[river]

“ about 10 of these manila ropes would do it with a good margin of safety, particularly if 30 or so large strong men were pushing/levering it from behind. ”

140,000lbs

your serious

we havn't even talked about getting these blocks 175ft in the air

Of course the majority of the stones were FAR smaller.

so what , you still have to deal with 70ton blocks

 

[river]

“ six ropes lift 140,000lbs , really , by 30 people

ohhhh... please ”

That's NOT what I wrote.

I didn't say how many people were pulling on the TEN ropes I suggested, I pointed out that in addition to the people pulling on the ropes (they would use as many as needed) you could also have about 30 men pushing/levering the block from behind.

please

 

[river]

“ Originally Posted by river
140,000lbs ”

And I showed that wasn't an insurmountable problem

 

[kx000]

Why would there be evidence of extra-terestreials? Is there evidence of humans on planet young money cash money business?

 

[phlogistician]

No you fail to understand, terribly as most likely ill-informed about the physics.

What qualifications have you attained btw?

wormhole is indeed a solution to relativity. But who needs a wormhole to time travel? All you need is a strong enough gravitational distortion, like a cold run-down nuclear star, like a nuetron star. There would be enough gravitational distortions around one of them to constitute some noticable time dilation effects.

And a strong gravitational field only slows time locally. A craft would have to take the neutron star with them, to benefit, and then have all the engineering problems of accelerating such a large mass.

There is also the alcubierre drive which is created from the relativistic postulate that the universe is dynamic, can be bent and warped.

Which, just like wormholes, has energy problems with a practical solution.

There are also more primitive means of travelling quite reasonably large distances by using what is called the Sling Shot effect. All those concerned about massive amounts of energy required to accelerate an object to very high speeds might be achievable by using the gravitational attraction of planets.

Which we already use to propel probes to other planets, and which also does not get over the fact that the speed limit for an object with mass is 'c'.

Of course, we must also be open to the fact that aliens have at their disposal important requirements which must be met when speculating about a wormhole like you have done. You would require exotic matter with a negative energy to keep a wormhole open as they are manifestly unstable.

Why must we? You are making a circular argument here, I fear. You assert they are visiting with scant evidence, then postulate they are using loopholes in relativity, to justify the visitation.

And you haven't dealt with how they pick a region of space to explore. We've only been broadcasting radio signals for about 120 years, so those early, faint radio signals can only have alerted life within 120 light years to our existence. Conversely, we haven't picked up any of their radio signals through SETI at all. Given we've made good use of radio for over a century, and don't seem to be giving up any time soon, it's fair to assume any other civilisation used radio communications for some time also,... so why don't we hear them?

 

[phlogistician]

well tell me how to lift 70 ton blocks of granite 175ft up off the ground back then , then ?

Oh deary me. Go to Egypt. I have.

If you go to the granite quarry at Aswan, you'll see where the blocks were chipped away using manual tools, there are still incomplete blocks, roughly hewn, and a broken needle, still attached to the bedrock.

Now, if some alien intelligence lifted the blocks into place, why didn't they cut the blocks with frikking lasers, instead of letting the locals chip them free with copper and stone tools?

But anyway, if you'd taken the time to go explore Egypt, as I have, you'd experience many and various works of civil engineering, which are impressive, but you see the development of the craft, from basic mastabas to the stepped pyramids at Saqqara, to the pyramids.

But then why do you marvel at the pyramids, and assume they needed alien intervention? What about Lincoln Cathedral? It was the tallest building in the world for some 249 years,... taller than the Great Pyramid, yet we know it was built by humans. Architecturally, it's far more complex than the pyramids too. (and I have been inside both, so don't bother arguing that point). The architects of Lincon Cathedral had no more at their disposal than those of the pyramids, just people, wood, and rope. You also seem to forget that various invaders to Egypt took large monoliths, transported them home, and erected them as trophies, many being transported much larger distances than between the quarry at Aswan and their original location. Did aliens move these for the pillagers too? ROFL!

 

[Ophiolite]

But the fact remains, we have found but 33 planets and only ONE planet in the GLZ that is at all earthlike, but it is too massive to likely support life.

Completely misleading statement, made by someone who is well enough informed to know better. That is dishonest, sir, and I call you on it.

 

[adoucette]

Completely misleading statement, made by someone who is well enough informed to know better. That is dishonest, sir, and I call you on it.

It was in reference to the Kepler spacecraft's discoveries, which I admit I didn't make clear in THAT post, but then it WAS in reference to another post in THIS thread where that fact was made clear.

And Kepler's data is relevant because unlike the gas giants found by other methods, Kepler is looking for habitable planets in the GLZ which is the subset that this discussion is about.

Consider that Kepler is looking at data from ~170,000 stars out of about 500,000 in it's field of view with over 300,000 left out because they are not likely to be conducive to life (too small/dim)) and so far we have only ~2,300 candidates and only 33 confirmed planets. While this number of confirmed planets will go up, still it is not looking like it will be anywhere near the 80,000 planets you would need for fp to equal 0.5 for just the 170,000 being looked at. Indeed the number of .01 seems like a more realistic value for fp.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2884334&postcount=360

 

[adoucette]

140,000lbs

your serious

we havn't even talked about getting these blocks 175ft in the air

Sure why not?

A 2 inch Manila rope has a breaking strength of 27,000 lbs.
10 such ropes can lift 150,000 lbs with a large margin of safety.

Let's assume that they could only make ropes half as good as our manila ropes, so what, then they need 20 ropes.

Do you think they couldn't make 20 2 inch diameter ropes from plant material?

so what , you still have to deal with 70ton blocks

And I showed that isn't an insurmountable problem for humans with their level of technology.
See Philogistician's posts as well.

 

[Ophiolite]

It was in reference to the Kepler spacecraft's discoveries, which I admit I didn't make clear in THAT post, but then it WAS in reference to another post in THIS thread where that fact was made clear.

And Kepler's data is relevant because unlike the gas giants found by other methods, Kepler is looking for habitable planets in the GLZ which is the subset that this discussion is about.

Kepler's data is very relevant. What you have failed to make clear is that these thirty three discoveries are those so far confirmed out of over two thousand candidate possibilities declared as of December 2011. I doubt that most of those have been invalidated within the last month, but your post implies that all of them, bar these thirty three have been found invalid.

 

[adoucette]

Kepler's data is very relevant. What you have failed to make clear is that these thirty three discoveries are those so far confirmed out of over two thousand candidate possibilities declared as of December 2011. I doubt that most of those have been invalidated within the last month, but your post implies that all of them, bar these thirty three have been found invalid.

Untrue.

I implied no such thing, indeed I said just the opposite and posted links to all the relevant data in this thread.

so far we have only ~2,300 candidates and only 33 confirmed planets. While this number of confirmed planets will go up, still it is not looking like it will be anywhere near the 80,000 planets you would need for fp to equal 0.5 for just the 170,000 being looked at

I posted both a link to the Kepler site, and to the discoveries table so one can see the data as it changes and to the the false positive list so you can get an idea of how many candidates turn out to be false

http://kepler.nasa.gov/
http://kepler.nasa.gov/Mission/discoveries/
http://archive.stsci.edu/kepler/false_positives.html

 

[Reiku]

Why would there be evidence of extra-terestreials? Is there evidence of humans on planet young money cash money business?

Indeed, I am unclear as to why there should be evidence as well. When I asked this no one could clarify properly why.