Collective punmishment is not a joke. It is both immoral and illegal - Very Nazi like.
News From Gaza
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
- Status
I wonder how Gaza got this bad eh?
The History is So short the Revisionism unprecedented - Bigots are blind to Facts.
I mean Israel RETURNS it in Full... only to have it turned it into "Terror Central"- and This Terror organization get's Elected .... Collectively.
Israel Leaves Gaza; Arabs Rush to Burn Synagogues
by Hillel Fendel
Sept 12, 2005
"38 years of presence in Gaza have come to an end, and we are now deploying anew," said Defense Minister Sha'ul Mofaz this morning.
Gen. Aviv Kokhavi, commander of the Gaza Formation, said at the conclusion of the retreat, "From now on, the responsibility for what goes on in Gaza is in the hands of the Palestinian Authority; the responsibility for Israeli citizens remains in the hands of the IDF."
Just this morning, a Kassam rocket was fired at the Negev border city of Sderot; no one was hurt. O.C. Southern Commander Dan Har'el said that he sees the PA as responsible for the shooting, that the shooting was a violation of the PA's commitment to maintain security, and that the IDF will respond.
In the early afternoon hours, reports of another Kassam rocket towards Yad Mordechai were heard, just north of Gaza. The Red Dawn early-warning alarm system was activated, sending residents to their shelters for a brief period.
Shortly after the first Kassam fell, Defense Minister Sha'ul Mofaz said, "The Palestinians well understand that the State of Israel's policy regarding Kassams has now changed. There are no hard and fast rules regarding our response, but I strongly recommend that we act according to the toolbox that the IDF has."
In response to this announcement, the Katif.net website issued a warning to the residents of Sderot: "If the army has already started its declarations on the first day [of the retreat], your situation is not simple. Speaking from experience, we residents of Gush Katif well know the 'responses' of the army - such as when the terrorists fired 100 mortar shells on our towns and the IDF chose to respond with quiet. This in turn led to running away and the destruction of the Gush Katif communities."
As the Israeli flag was being lowered over Gaza to mark the end of Israel's 38-year-presence in the area, teenaged Arabs threw rocks at IDF troops near the demolished N'vei Dekalim community. Four Arabs were reported injured in the clash.
During the midnight hours, mobs began swarming onto several formerly-Jewish areas even before the last Israeli soldiers had left. This, despite the fact that PA officials had said they would attempt to prevent entry of Arabs to the newly-abandoned areas, and declare them "closed military zones."
They mobs poured into N'vei Dekalim, Morag, Kfar Darom and Netzarim, setting out for the synagogues and trying to burn them down. The buildings are mainly concrete and therefore did not catch fire, but black smoke continues to darken the skies above the former Jewish towns. The IDF had hung orange signs on the 21 synagogues in Gush Katif, declaring them a "holy place."
The United States, which takes credit for disseminating the concepts of freedom of religion and respect for religious sites, condemned Israel for its decision not to destroy Jewish places of worship in Gaza.
"The decision places the Palestinian Authority in a no-win situation," said a State Department spokesman.
Former Gush Katif spokesman Eran Sternberg warned that the PA's enabling of the burning of the synagogues gives an "appearance of legitimacy for any Jew to strike out against Moslem holy sites, including the [mosques on the] Temple Mount."
Ynet - arguably Israel's most widely-read internet Hebrew news site - provided its angle of the events in Gaza by its choice of links in its main Gaza articles today. In a list of four links in one of its articles on the Gaza retreat, two of them were these:
* An exlusive interview with the father of Muhammed al-Dura, killed in October 2000. At the time, the PA disseminated footage purporting to prove that he was killed by Israeli crossfire, when in fact it was later shown almost conclusively that the event was staged and that the boy was out of the line of IDF fire. "I can't forget that day," his father is quoted as saying.
* Another exclusive interview with the mother of the last soldier killed in Gaza.
israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/89694
The History is So short the Revisionism unprecedented - Bigots are blind to Facts.
I mean Israel RETURNS it in Full... only to have it turned it into "Terror Central"- and This Terror organization get's Elected .... Collectively.
Israel Leaves Gaza; Arabs Rush to Burn Synagogues
by Hillel Fendel
Sept 12, 2005
"38 years of presence in Gaza have come to an end, and we are now deploying anew," said Defense Minister Sha'ul Mofaz this morning.
Gen. Aviv Kokhavi, commander of the Gaza Formation, said at the conclusion of the retreat, "From now on, the responsibility for what goes on in Gaza is in the hands of the Palestinian Authority; the responsibility for Israeli citizens remains in the hands of the IDF."
Just this morning, a Kassam rocket was fired at the Negev border city of Sderot; no one was hurt. O.C. Southern Commander Dan Har'el said that he sees the PA as responsible for the shooting, that the shooting was a violation of the PA's commitment to maintain security, and that the IDF will respond.
In the early afternoon hours, reports of another Kassam rocket towards Yad Mordechai were heard, just north of Gaza. The Red Dawn early-warning alarm system was activated, sending residents to their shelters for a brief period.
Shortly after the first Kassam fell, Defense Minister Sha'ul Mofaz said, "The Palestinians well understand that the State of Israel's policy regarding Kassams has now changed. There are no hard and fast rules regarding our response, but I strongly recommend that we act according to the toolbox that the IDF has."
In response to this announcement, the Katif.net website issued a warning to the residents of Sderot: "If the army has already started its declarations on the first day [of the retreat], your situation is not simple. Speaking from experience, we residents of Gush Katif well know the 'responses' of the army - such as when the terrorists fired 100 mortar shells on our towns and the IDF chose to respond with quiet. This in turn led to running away and the destruction of the Gush Katif communities."
As the Israeli flag was being lowered over Gaza to mark the end of Israel's 38-year-presence in the area, teenaged Arabs threw rocks at IDF troops near the demolished N'vei Dekalim community. Four Arabs were reported injured in the clash.
During the midnight hours, mobs began swarming onto several formerly-Jewish areas even before the last Israeli soldiers had left. This, despite the fact that PA officials had said they would attempt to prevent entry of Arabs to the newly-abandoned areas, and declare them "closed military zones."
They mobs poured into N'vei Dekalim, Morag, Kfar Darom and Netzarim, setting out for the synagogues and trying to burn them down. The buildings are mainly concrete and therefore did not catch fire, but black smoke continues to darken the skies above the former Jewish towns. The IDF had hung orange signs on the 21 synagogues in Gush Katif, declaring them a "holy place."
The United States, which takes credit for disseminating the concepts of freedom of religion and respect for religious sites, condemned Israel for its decision not to destroy Jewish places of worship in Gaza.
"The decision places the Palestinian Authority in a no-win situation," said a State Department spokesman.
Former Gush Katif spokesman Eran Sternberg warned that the PA's enabling of the burning of the synagogues gives an "appearance of legitimacy for any Jew to strike out against Moslem holy sites, including the [mosques on the] Temple Mount."
Ynet - arguably Israel's most widely-read internet Hebrew news site - provided its angle of the events in Gaza by its choice of links in its main Gaza articles today. In a list of four links in one of its articles on the Gaza retreat, two of them were these:
* An exlusive interview with the father of Muhammed al-Dura, killed in October 2000. At the time, the PA disseminated footage purporting to prove that he was killed by Israeli crossfire, when in fact it was later shown almost conclusively that the event was staged and that the boy was out of the line of IDF fire. "I can't forget that day," his father is quoted as saying.
* Another exclusive interview with the mother of the last soldier killed in Gaza.
israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/89694
As I predicted when the plan to leave Gaza was announced, the width drawl was a Brilliant move by Israel to frustrate the creation of a Palestine state. Because the entire world from US to Russia is demanding that creation, the exposure of the internal conflicts* of the Palestinians was the only way to effectively block that state's creation. Again I say it was "Brilliant, simply Brilliant." real politics on Israelis' part. More details at:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1808596&postcount=788
I am somewhat puzzled by your "Bigots are blind to Facts." Are you calling yourself a "bigot"?
You seem to be blind to the fact that before Israel left, Israel's bulldozers destroyed every house that had housed about 10 to 20,000 people. It is true that Israel did leave the sturdy, concrete synagogues - sort of a challenge - to frustrate and infuriate the religious Moslem fanatics, Israel even painted signs on the synagogues stating "these are the holy places."
------------------
*The current issue of The Economist has a special section of about 8 articles exposing the "internal conflicts" of Israel. One of the more serious is that the more secular Jews, who provide the foundations of Israeli's economy with their creative brain power (Tiny Israel has more high tech companies on the Nasdaq than all other countries, except two.) are well on their way to becoming a minority. Many are planning to leave Israeli when the religious right takes full power, forces "No work on the Sabbath" etc. rules on the society.
Last edited by a moderator:
I did not know this. Where did you get this information, do you remember?
I do not remember now. It was common knowledge. No one disputes it.
I did omit one detail, which detracts from point I was making. The Palestine Authority did not object to this distruction of housing. Those houses were much nicer than it can provide and in the best locations, of course. The PA, which no longer has power in Gaza, was considering building public housing, much more modest and higher density. If they did that, then they would have destroyed the relatively fancy Jewish homes. - Why they did not object.
PS to SAM:
My copy of the APL News arrived yesterday. I learn that my old friends in the space department have made for India's Chandreyaan-1, moon orbiter planned for launch in a few months a "synthetic radar" (called Mini-RF"). Synthetic radars are very high resolution instruments can have the same resolution in one dimension** as if they were many miles wide. They Look from point "a" in their orbit and remember the signals, even the phase, and later look at same target area from point "b" (and many points in between, sometimes) then combine the information to get their extreme resolution with only a tiny antenna.) Your satellite will join the Chinese one already circling the moon. They have similar missions - yours is focusing on the possibility that there is ice at the poles. Thus it must be in a polar orbit. I think the Chinese one is in a more inclined orbit and may not fly over either pole, but I am not sure of this. If true I hope it indicates some cooperation in the mission planning. The US will not (cannot afford to) continue the GWB nonsense of a manned mission to Mars. That will be one of the first things cut from the budget after the election. Probably if the US ever does return to the moon, it will need to ask China, Japan and India for "landing permission." - The future belongs to Asia - manage it well.
---
**As the orbit plane is fixed in space but the moon rotates every 28 days, your orbiter will fly over the moon crossing along many different moon longitude lines. Thus, in a year or so, you will have enough of these high resolution 1D passes to construct (in computers) a high resolution 2D image of the poles. Sort of like the high-resolution, 3D, medical scans of the human body are constructed in computer for only the 1D data of beam absorption taken at many cross sections along the body. (Usually not the entire body, just the part of concern, like a head which may have a tumor in it.)
PS2 Sorry if I bored you. - I love to teach and can not restrain myself.
Last edited by a moderator:
Billy T, mi kurason, the more I read your posts the less I am convinced that you are worth my time.
Let me just tell you this:
Israel should under no circumstances take responsibility for the "palestinian" refugee problem from 1948. I won't concentrate too much on the fact that many of the initial 700,000 or so "refugees" were just foreign workers from surrounding areas who came to Palestine because Jews who came before them drained the swamps and created economic prosperity and started hiring... just the way people flock to the US (sometimes illegally) to find jobs and have a better life for themselves. Just because you have worked in Palestine for a few years does not make you "palestinian". I mean it in the sense that Arabs usually mean it -- that your family is from there.
Anyway, back to the other part whose families were from Palestine. Israel should never take responsibility for having those Arabs leave. The responsibility (and this is a pretty obvious thing) lies with the 7 Arab countries who together tried to gang-rape, murder, and destroy the tiny country which was created on only 6% of the area originally allocated for its creation.
Bear in mind that Jews lived in Palestine for many generations, and in some cases for centuries (some say that there has been a small but uninterrupted Jewish presence in Palestine since Jesus' time), and just like any people (minorities or otherwise) have a natural right to create their own state, so did the Jews.
So why are the Arab countries responsible for making "palestinians" "homeless"? Here's an incomplete list:
In conclusion:
I'll give you another benefit of the doubt by assuming you don't know the above things (even though you are a retired professor with a Ph.D.)
There are other issues complicating the matter (e.g. jihadism) but I won't get into those now.
Oh, and by the way, i.bel, Israel did not "return" Gaza to the "palestinians". It simply gave it away. It has never been under "palestinian" control.
------------------------------------------
EDIT:
Just wanted to also mention that if Israel was into expulsions, they'd have finished the job. Instead, half of the Israeli Arabs stayed and are today an integral part of the Israeli scenery.
A note to SAM - you know I don't take you seriously or even bother reading the crap you write, so please don't respond to what I write.
Let me just tell you this:
Israel should under no circumstances take responsibility for the "palestinian" refugee problem from 1948. I won't concentrate too much on the fact that many of the initial 700,000 or so "refugees" were just foreign workers from surrounding areas who came to Palestine because Jews who came before them drained the swamps and created economic prosperity and started hiring... just the way people flock to the US (sometimes illegally) to find jobs and have a better life for themselves. Just because you have worked in Palestine for a few years does not make you "palestinian". I mean it in the sense that Arabs usually mean it -- that your family is from there.
Anyway, back to the other part whose families were from Palestine. Israel should never take responsibility for having those Arabs leave. The responsibility (and this is a pretty obvious thing) lies with the 7 Arab countries who together tried to gang-rape, murder, and destroy the tiny country which was created on only 6% of the area originally allocated for its creation.
Bear in mind that Jews lived in Palestine for many generations, and in some cases for centuries (some say that there has been a small but uninterrupted Jewish presence in Palestine since Jesus' time), and just like any people (minorities or otherwise) have a natural right to create their own state, so did the Jews.
So why are the Arab countries responsible for making "palestinians" "homeless"? Here's an incomplete list:
- The Arab countries have brought their armies to Israel and started bombing it. That's why people were made refugees.
- There were promisses made to the Arab inhabitants inside Israel by those Arab governments right before the war: "we're coming to attack, to completely destroy Israel, so why don't you just get out of the country for a while until we finish the job, and then you can return." Obviously that promise was not fulfilled as Israel was victorious. But who is responsible here? I think it's clear. In the least, Arab governments should compensate those refugees for advertising false promises. In Brazil if a company promises you something and doesn't deliver, you can sue them, can't you?
- The above promise was promised again and again over the last 60 years. "OK it didn't work the 1st time, but we're hatching a new plan, a much better one. Just wait a little while longer and you'll be able to "return". There have been 6 Arab-Israeli wars so far, and in all these wars the Arabs lost, and all the while the "palestinian refugees" are still waiting. It reminds me of Microsoft products in the late 90's and early 2000s... Bill Gates kept delivering broken and unfinished products, and kept promissing better products. People never learned and kept buying those future products which ended up being just as bad, if not worse
I suppose the "palestinians" didn't really have a choice of not going along with these rejectionist Arabs' plans. This brings me to my next point: - What have the Arab countries done to help ease the "palestinian" suffering? Not much, other than to provide them military training and brainwashing. Most "palestinian refugees" who live in Arab countries to this very day are kept in refugee camps. They aren't allowed to own property or work outside of the camp, are not given citizenship despite living there for decades, and are generally treated like scum. I'm not talking about the Arab rhetoric about the poor "palestinians" -- I'm talking about the actual treatment.
In conclusion:
- Palestine was not "stolen"
- The Arab world is responsible for creating, and prolonging for 60 years the plight and misery of the "palestinians"
- The Arab world should therefore take responsibility for their actions and the results of those actions, and compensate those "refugees" with money, and at least citizenships and equal rights like the rest of their citizens and immigrants enjoy.
I'll give you another benefit of the doubt by assuming you don't know the above things (even though you are a retired professor with a Ph.D.)
There are other issues complicating the matter (e.g. jihadism) but I won't get into those now.
Oh, and by the way, i.bel, Israel did not "return" Gaza to the "palestinians". It simply gave it away. It has never been under "palestinian" control.
------------------------------------------
EDIT:
Just wanted to also mention that if Israel was into expulsions, they'd have finished the job. Instead, half of the Israeli Arabs stayed and are today an integral part of the Israeli scenery.
A note to SAM - you know I don't take you seriously or even bother reading the crap you write, so please don't respond to what I write.
Last edited:
The Expulsion of the Palestinians
The "Palestinian refugee problem"--that is, the human tragedy created by the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians from their homeland, Palestine--remains a seemingly insoluble aspect of the Middle East puzzle.
Yet the expulsion of the Palestinians was an inescapable outcome of the United Nations' 1947 decision to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states the following year. (The Arab state never came into existence.)
Before the partition, Jews comprised only one-third of the population of Palestine, which held some 608,000 Jews and 1,237,000 Arabs. Even within the area designated for Israel under the U.N. partition plan, the population consisted of some 500,000 Jews and 330,000 Arabs. How could a country with such a large Arab minority become a Jewish homeland?[1]
The answer is that it could not. A massive population transfer would be required. And this was understood by Jewish military leaders during the war of 1947-1948. David Ben-Gurion, father of Israel and leader of its military, confidently predicted on February 7, 1948, that "there surely will be a great change in the population of the country" over the next several months. He was right.[2]
(The inevitable conflict between Jewish colonization of Palestine and the rights of the indigenous Palestinians was foreseen from the beginning. Theodor Herzl, the father of political Zionism, articulated the Zionist colonial plan in his 1896 book _Der Judenstaat_ (The Jewish State). Recognizing that a people would not surrender its homeland voluntarily, he wrote: "An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues until the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless based on an assured supremacy.")[2.5]
At the beginning of the strife in late 1947, it is likely that the Jewish political leadership in Palestine would have rejected any formal plan to expel the Palestinians. (Although that would change by the following June, as discussed below, when the new Israeli government prohibited the return of all Palestinian refugees.) There was, however, a shared belief by many of the Jewish (later Israeli) military leaders during the war that the entire Palestinian population was the enemy. Acting on that belief, the Jewish militias (the official Haganah and the unofficial Stern Gang and Irgun) engaged in a consistent course of conduct that was intended to--and did--cause the Arab population to flee. (The Israeli myth that the Palestinians left on instructions from Arab leaders has long since been shown to be a fabrication.)[3]
There is ample evidence of forcible expulsions. The most notorious was the Lydda/Ramle death march. On July 12 and 13, 1948, on the direct order of Ben-Gurion, Israeli forces expelled the 50,000 residents of the towns of Lydda and neighboring Ramle. Yitzak Rabin, later to become Israeli Prime Minister, wrote in his memoirs that "there was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the ten or fifteen miles" required to reach Arab positions. Before they left, the townspeople were "systematically stripped of all their belongings," according to the Economist newspaper in London. Many of the expelled died in the 100-degree heat during the trek.[4]
Eventually the refugees from Lydda and Ramle made their way to refugee camps near Ramallah. Count Folke Bernadotte, Swedish nobleman and United Nations mediator, attempted to offer aid. He later wrote that "I have made the acquaintance of a great many refugee camps, but never have I seen a more ghastly sight than that which met my eyes here at Ramallah." (Later that year, Bernadotte was murdered by the Stern Gang. One of its leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, became Israeli Prime Minister in 1983.)[5]
Forcible expulsions were commonly practiced by the Jewish/Israeli military during 1948: Qisariya on February 15; Arab Zahrat al-Dumayri, al-Rama and Khirbat al-Sarkas in April; al-Ghabisiya, Danna, Najd and Zarnuqa the next month; Jaba, Ein Ghazal and Ijzim on July 24; and al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad on October 31, among many others. Israeli historian Benny Morris has identified 34 Arab communities whose inhabitants were ousted. We may never know the full extent of the ejections, though, because, as Morris notes, the Israeli Defense Forces Archive "has a standing policy guideline not to open material explicitly describing expulsions and atrocities."[6]
More often, though, the instruments of expulsion were the terrorizing and demoralization of the Arab population. Jewish military forces used several tactics in pursuit of these goals.
One was psychological warfare. Radio broadcasts in Arabic warned of traitors in the Arabs' midst, spread fears of disease, reported confusion and terror among the Arabs, described the Palestinians as having been deserted by their leaders, and accused Arab militias of committing crimes against Arab civilians.[7]
Another effective psywar tactic involved the use of loudspeaker trucks. At various times they urged the Palestinians to flee before they were all killed, warned that the Jews were using poison gas and atomic weapons, or played recorded "horror sounds"--shrieks, moans, the wail of sirens and the clang of fire-alarm bells.[8]
A second tactic, economic warfare, was a favorite of Ben-Gurion, who described "the strategic objective" of the Jewish forces to be "to destroy the [Arab] urban communities." "Deprived of transportation, food, and raw materials," he later noted with satisfaction, "the urban communities underwent a process of disintegration, chaos, and hunger."[9]
A third technique to induce Arab flight was military attack on a town's Arab population. These assaults often used Davidka mortars--horribly inaccurate, but useful for creating terror--and barrel bombs. The latter consisted of barrels, casks, and metal drums filled with a mixture of explosives and fuel oil. Rolled into the Arab section of a town, they created "an inferno of raging flames and endless explosions." Another destructive maneuver described by writer Arthur Koestler was the "ruthless dynamiting of block after block" of the Arab community.[10]
Not uncommonly, the Jewish forces resorted to simple terrorism. Sometimes this took the form of bombs planted in vehicles or buildings: 30 killed in Jaffa on Jan. 4., 1948, with a truck bomb; 20 killed the next day when the Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed; 17 killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem two days later.[11]
More often, a Jewish military force entered an Arab village and massacred civilians, either during a night raid or after the seizure of the village. The massacres started early: Major General R. Dare Wilson, who served with the British troops trying to keep peace in Palestine before the end of the British Mandate, reported that on Dec. 18, 1947, the Haganah murdered 10, mostly women and children, in the Arab village of al-Khisas with grenades and machine gun fire. Wilson also described how on Dec. 31 the Haganah slaughtered another 14, again mostly women and children, again using machine guns and throwing grenades into occupied homes, this time in Balad Esh-Sheikh.[12]
Throughout 1948, the massacres continued: 60 at Sa'sa' on Feb. 15; 100 murdered in Acre after its May 18 seizure by the Haganah; several hundred at Lydda on July 12, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash Mosque; 100 at Dawayma on Oct. 29, with an Israeli eye-witness reporting that "the children were killed by smashing their skulls with clubs"; 13 young men mowed down by machine guns in open fields outside Eilabun on Oct. 30; another 70 young men blindfolded and shot to death, one after another, at Safsaf the same day; 12 killed at Majd al-Kurum, also on Oct. 30, with a Belgian U.N. observer writing that "there is no doubt about these murders"; an unknown number killed the next day at al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad, described by a U.N. official as "wanton slaying without provocation"; 14 "liquidated," according to the Israeli military's report, at Khirbet al-Wa'ra as-Sauda on Nov. 2.[13]
A particularly repugnant method of killing employed by the Jewish militias was the blowing up of houses with their occupants still inside, often at night. The militia would place explosive charges around the stone houses, drench the wooden window and door frames with gasoline, and then open fire, simultaneously dynamiting and burning the sleeping inhabitants to death.[14]
The supreme act of terrorism by Jewish militias was the slaughter of nearly the entire village of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948. According to Jacques de Reynier, a Swiss physician working for the Red Cross who arrived before the bloodletting had ended, 254 people were "deliberately massacred in cold blood." "All I could think of," he later said, "was the SS troops I had seen in Athens." According to Meir Pa'il, who served as a communications officer for the Haganah in Deir Yassin and was present during the assault, 25 male survivors were taken to Jerusalem and paraded through the streets in a perverse victory celebration, then shot in cold blood.[15]
Menachem Begin, the leader of the Irgun, one of the militias involved in the horror at Deir Yassin, called the atrocity a "splendid act of conquest." In 1977, Begin was elected Prime Minister of Israel.[16]
The massacre at Deir Yassin played a crucial role in undermining the morale of the Palestinian population. As de Reynier, the Swiss physician, wrote, "a general terror was built up among the Arabs, a terror astutely fostered by the Jews."[17]
Once the Israeli military had forced the Palestinians to flee, various Israeli institutions attempted to insure that there would be no return. The new Israeli government decided on June 16, 1948--just a month after Israel had declared independence, and before half of the refugees had even become such--that it would not permit the Palestinians to return to their homeland. The military, meanwhile, worked to render return a physical impossibility. Its forces leveled 418 Palestinian towns and villages, erasing the majority of Palestinian society from the face of the earth.[18]
http://www.robincmiller.com/pales2.htm
Source for above information:
The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: The Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Service Analysis of June 1948; published in Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986.
"The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948" is the name of a document that was produced by Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service. It is dated June 30, 1948 and consists of two parts: a 9 page text and a 15 page appendix. The details in the appendix serves as a basis of the statistical breakdown in the text.
The author is assumed to be Moshe Sasson, assistant to the director of the Arab Department in the Intelligence Service. (He was later Israel's ambassador to Italy and Egypt.)
The document became publicly known in in 1985, after a copy of the report had been discovered among the papers of Aharon Cohen (former director of Mapam´s Arab Department), which were given to the Hashomer Hatza'ir Archive, Israel.
The "Palestinian refugee problem"--that is, the human tragedy created by the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians from their homeland, Palestine--remains a seemingly insoluble aspect of the Middle East puzzle.
Yet the expulsion of the Palestinians was an inescapable outcome of the United Nations' 1947 decision to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states the following year. (The Arab state never came into existence.)
Before the partition, Jews comprised only one-third of the population of Palestine, which held some 608,000 Jews and 1,237,000 Arabs. Even within the area designated for Israel under the U.N. partition plan, the population consisted of some 500,000 Jews and 330,000 Arabs. How could a country with such a large Arab minority become a Jewish homeland?[1]
The answer is that it could not. A massive population transfer would be required. And this was understood by Jewish military leaders during the war of 1947-1948. David Ben-Gurion, father of Israel and leader of its military, confidently predicted on February 7, 1948, that "there surely will be a great change in the population of the country" over the next several months. He was right.[2]
(The inevitable conflict between Jewish colonization of Palestine and the rights of the indigenous Palestinians was foreseen from the beginning. Theodor Herzl, the father of political Zionism, articulated the Zionist colonial plan in his 1896 book _Der Judenstaat_ (The Jewish State). Recognizing that a people would not surrender its homeland voluntarily, he wrote: "An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues until the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless based on an assured supremacy.")[2.5]
At the beginning of the strife in late 1947, it is likely that the Jewish political leadership in Palestine would have rejected any formal plan to expel the Palestinians. (Although that would change by the following June, as discussed below, when the new Israeli government prohibited the return of all Palestinian refugees.) There was, however, a shared belief by many of the Jewish (later Israeli) military leaders during the war that the entire Palestinian population was the enemy. Acting on that belief, the Jewish militias (the official Haganah and the unofficial Stern Gang and Irgun) engaged in a consistent course of conduct that was intended to--and did--cause the Arab population to flee. (The Israeli myth that the Palestinians left on instructions from Arab leaders has long since been shown to be a fabrication.)[3]
There is ample evidence of forcible expulsions. The most notorious was the Lydda/Ramle death march. On July 12 and 13, 1948, on the direct order of Ben-Gurion, Israeli forces expelled the 50,000 residents of the towns of Lydda and neighboring Ramle. Yitzak Rabin, later to become Israeli Prime Minister, wrote in his memoirs that "there was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the ten or fifteen miles" required to reach Arab positions. Before they left, the townspeople were "systematically stripped of all their belongings," according to the Economist newspaper in London. Many of the expelled died in the 100-degree heat during the trek.[4]
Eventually the refugees from Lydda and Ramle made their way to refugee camps near Ramallah. Count Folke Bernadotte, Swedish nobleman and United Nations mediator, attempted to offer aid. He later wrote that "I have made the acquaintance of a great many refugee camps, but never have I seen a more ghastly sight than that which met my eyes here at Ramallah." (Later that year, Bernadotte was murdered by the Stern Gang. One of its leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, became Israeli Prime Minister in 1983.)[5]
Forcible expulsions were commonly practiced by the Jewish/Israeli military during 1948: Qisariya on February 15; Arab Zahrat al-Dumayri, al-Rama and Khirbat al-Sarkas in April; al-Ghabisiya, Danna, Najd and Zarnuqa the next month; Jaba, Ein Ghazal and Ijzim on July 24; and al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad on October 31, among many others. Israeli historian Benny Morris has identified 34 Arab communities whose inhabitants were ousted. We may never know the full extent of the ejections, though, because, as Morris notes, the Israeli Defense Forces Archive "has a standing policy guideline not to open material explicitly describing expulsions and atrocities."[6]
More often, though, the instruments of expulsion were the terrorizing and demoralization of the Arab population. Jewish military forces used several tactics in pursuit of these goals.
One was psychological warfare. Radio broadcasts in Arabic warned of traitors in the Arabs' midst, spread fears of disease, reported confusion and terror among the Arabs, described the Palestinians as having been deserted by their leaders, and accused Arab militias of committing crimes against Arab civilians.[7]
Another effective psywar tactic involved the use of loudspeaker trucks. At various times they urged the Palestinians to flee before they were all killed, warned that the Jews were using poison gas and atomic weapons, or played recorded "horror sounds"--shrieks, moans, the wail of sirens and the clang of fire-alarm bells.[8]
A second tactic, economic warfare, was a favorite of Ben-Gurion, who described "the strategic objective" of the Jewish forces to be "to destroy the [Arab] urban communities." "Deprived of transportation, food, and raw materials," he later noted with satisfaction, "the urban communities underwent a process of disintegration, chaos, and hunger."[9]
A third technique to induce Arab flight was military attack on a town's Arab population. These assaults often used Davidka mortars--horribly inaccurate, but useful for creating terror--and barrel bombs. The latter consisted of barrels, casks, and metal drums filled with a mixture of explosives and fuel oil. Rolled into the Arab section of a town, they created "an inferno of raging flames and endless explosions." Another destructive maneuver described by writer Arthur Koestler was the "ruthless dynamiting of block after block" of the Arab community.[10]
Not uncommonly, the Jewish forces resorted to simple terrorism. Sometimes this took the form of bombs planted in vehicles or buildings: 30 killed in Jaffa on Jan. 4., 1948, with a truck bomb; 20 killed the next day when the Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed; 17 killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem two days later.[11]
More often, a Jewish military force entered an Arab village and massacred civilians, either during a night raid or after the seizure of the village. The massacres started early: Major General R. Dare Wilson, who served with the British troops trying to keep peace in Palestine before the end of the British Mandate, reported that on Dec. 18, 1947, the Haganah murdered 10, mostly women and children, in the Arab village of al-Khisas with grenades and machine gun fire. Wilson also described how on Dec. 31 the Haganah slaughtered another 14, again mostly women and children, again using machine guns and throwing grenades into occupied homes, this time in Balad Esh-Sheikh.[12]
Throughout 1948, the massacres continued: 60 at Sa'sa' on Feb. 15; 100 murdered in Acre after its May 18 seizure by the Haganah; several hundred at Lydda on July 12, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash Mosque; 100 at Dawayma on Oct. 29, with an Israeli eye-witness reporting that "the children were killed by smashing their skulls with clubs"; 13 young men mowed down by machine guns in open fields outside Eilabun on Oct. 30; another 70 young men blindfolded and shot to death, one after another, at Safsaf the same day; 12 killed at Majd al-Kurum, also on Oct. 30, with a Belgian U.N. observer writing that "there is no doubt about these murders"; an unknown number killed the next day at al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad, described by a U.N. official as "wanton slaying without provocation"; 14 "liquidated," according to the Israeli military's report, at Khirbet al-Wa'ra as-Sauda on Nov. 2.[13]
A particularly repugnant method of killing employed by the Jewish militias was the blowing up of houses with their occupants still inside, often at night. The militia would place explosive charges around the stone houses, drench the wooden window and door frames with gasoline, and then open fire, simultaneously dynamiting and burning the sleeping inhabitants to death.[14]
The supreme act of terrorism by Jewish militias was the slaughter of nearly the entire village of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948. According to Jacques de Reynier, a Swiss physician working for the Red Cross who arrived before the bloodletting had ended, 254 people were "deliberately massacred in cold blood." "All I could think of," he later said, "was the SS troops I had seen in Athens." According to Meir Pa'il, who served as a communications officer for the Haganah in Deir Yassin and was present during the assault, 25 male survivors were taken to Jerusalem and paraded through the streets in a perverse victory celebration, then shot in cold blood.[15]
Menachem Begin, the leader of the Irgun, one of the militias involved in the horror at Deir Yassin, called the atrocity a "splendid act of conquest." In 1977, Begin was elected Prime Minister of Israel.[16]
The massacre at Deir Yassin played a crucial role in undermining the morale of the Palestinian population. As de Reynier, the Swiss physician, wrote, "a general terror was built up among the Arabs, a terror astutely fostered by the Jews."[17]
Once the Israeli military had forced the Palestinians to flee, various Israeli institutions attempted to insure that there would be no return. The new Israeli government decided on June 16, 1948--just a month after Israel had declared independence, and before half of the refugees had even become such--that it would not permit the Palestinians to return to their homeland. The military, meanwhile, worked to render return a physical impossibility. Its forces leveled 418 Palestinian towns and villages, erasing the majority of Palestinian society from the face of the earth.[18]
http://www.robincmiller.com/pales2.htm
Source for above information:
The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: The Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Service Analysis of June 1948; published in Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986.
"The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948" is the name of a document that was produced by Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service. It is dated June 30, 1948 and consists of two parts: a 9 page text and a 15 page appendix. The details in the appendix serves as a basis of the statistical breakdown in the text.
The author is assumed to be Moshe Sasson, assistant to the director of the Arab Department in the Intelligence Service. (He was later Israel's ambassador to Italy and Egypt.)
The document became publicly known in in 1985, after a copy of the report had been discovered among the papers of Aharon Cohen (former director of Mapam´s Arab Department), which were given to the Hashomer Hatza'ir Archive, Israel.
Last edited:
"Arab orders" to flee:
(p.31) "In refuting Teveth´s single-cause ("Arab orders") explanation of the exodus up to 15 May, I pointed out that there is simply no evidence to support it, and that the single document Teveth is able to cite, the Haganah report of 24 April, refers explicitly to "rumours" and to an order to "several localities" (rather than a blanket order to "the Arabs of Palestine"). Moreover, neither these "rumours" nor the purported order were referred to again in any subsequent Haganah intelligence report (which surely would have been the case had these "rumours" been confirmed and had an actual order been picked up). The fact is that the opposite occurred: Haganah intelligence and Western diplomatic missions in the Middle East at the time, around 5-6 May 1948, picked up, recorded and quoted from Arab orders and appeals (by King Abdullah I, Arab Liberation Army Commander Fawzi Qawuqji, and Damascus Radio) to the Arabs of Palestine to stay put in their homes or, if already in exile, to return to Palestine. Not evidence of "Arab orders" to flee but of orders to stay put during those crucial pre-invasion weeks are what one find in Israeli and Western Archives. But Teveth's thesis is defective not merely because of a lack of evidence. It flies in the face of the chronology, which there is no getting around. There was an almost universal one-to-one correspondence between Jewish attacks in specific localities and on specific towns and Arab flight from these localities and towns;
* Tiberias was attacked by the Golani Brigade on 17 April; its Arab population evacuated on 18 April.
* Arab Haifa was attacked and defeated on 21-22 April; most of its 70,000 Arab inhabitants, evacuated the city over 22 April -1 May.
* Jaffa was assaulted by the Irgun Zva´i Leumi on 25-27 April; the bulk of its 70,000-80,000 population fled the city between 25 April and 13 May.
* Safad was attacked and conquered by the Palmah on 9-10 May; its Arab population of 10,000 fled the city on 10 May.
* Eastern Galilee was conquered by Palmah units between 2 May and 25 May; the villages in the area decamped during that period. And so on.
(p.32): What this means is that Haganah / Irgun /IDF attack was usually the principal and final precipitant of Arab flight....[].. For if the Arab order/orders had been issued on 10 April, why did the inhabitants of Haifa wait a fortnight, and those of Safad or Eastern Galilee a month or more to depart? And it the order was issued, say, on 25 April, why did the inhabitants of Tiberias depart three days before; or those of Safad wait a further fortnight before leaving?
Source:
''1948 and after: Israel and the Palestinians'' is a collection of essays by the Israeli historian Benny Morris. The book was first published in hardcover in 1990. It was revised and expanded, (largely on the basis on newly available material) and published by Clarendon Press, Oxford, in 1994, ISBN 0-19-827929-9.
(p.31) "In refuting Teveth´s single-cause ("Arab orders") explanation of the exodus up to 15 May, I pointed out that there is simply no evidence to support it, and that the single document Teveth is able to cite, the Haganah report of 24 April, refers explicitly to "rumours" and to an order to "several localities" (rather than a blanket order to "the Arabs of Palestine"). Moreover, neither these "rumours" nor the purported order were referred to again in any subsequent Haganah intelligence report (which surely would have been the case had these "rumours" been confirmed and had an actual order been picked up). The fact is that the opposite occurred: Haganah intelligence and Western diplomatic missions in the Middle East at the time, around 5-6 May 1948, picked up, recorded and quoted from Arab orders and appeals (by King Abdullah I, Arab Liberation Army Commander Fawzi Qawuqji, and Damascus Radio) to the Arabs of Palestine to stay put in their homes or, if already in exile, to return to Palestine. Not evidence of "Arab orders" to flee but of orders to stay put during those crucial pre-invasion weeks are what one find in Israeli and Western Archives. But Teveth's thesis is defective not merely because of a lack of evidence. It flies in the face of the chronology, which there is no getting around. There was an almost universal one-to-one correspondence between Jewish attacks in specific localities and on specific towns and Arab flight from these localities and towns;
* Tiberias was attacked by the Golani Brigade on 17 April; its Arab population evacuated on 18 April.
* Arab Haifa was attacked and defeated on 21-22 April; most of its 70,000 Arab inhabitants, evacuated the city over 22 April -1 May.
* Jaffa was assaulted by the Irgun Zva´i Leumi on 25-27 April; the bulk of its 70,000-80,000 population fled the city between 25 April and 13 May.
* Safad was attacked and conquered by the Palmah on 9-10 May; its Arab population of 10,000 fled the city on 10 May.
* Eastern Galilee was conquered by Palmah units between 2 May and 25 May; the villages in the area decamped during that period. And so on.
(p.32): What this means is that Haganah / Irgun /IDF attack was usually the principal and final precipitant of Arab flight....[].. For if the Arab order/orders had been issued on 10 April, why did the inhabitants of Haifa wait a fortnight, and those of Safad or Eastern Galilee a month or more to depart? And it the order was issued, say, on 25 April, why did the inhabitants of Tiberias depart three days before; or those of Safad wait a further fortnight before leaving?
Source:
''1948 and after: Israel and the Palestinians'' is a collection of essays by the Israeli historian Benny Morris. The book was first published in hardcover in 1990. It was revised and expanded, (largely on the basis on newly available material) and published by Clarendon Press, Oxford, in 1994, ISBN 0-19-827929-9.
It's pretty amusing seeing the hamsters in your head furiously running and running and running I know OCD is a serious issue, but you're still damn funny
Now, instead of SpAMing like you usually do, why don't you give the man a chance to actually notice my post, which is what he wanted to see. Will the hamsters allow you to do that?
Probably not... oh well.
I know OCD is a serious issue, but you're still damn funny Now, instead of SpAMing like you usually do, why don't you give the man a chance to actually notice my post, which is what he wanted to see. Will the hamsters allow you to do that?
Probably not... oh well.
Here are a few suggestions to help reduce spam and long unreadable posts (which is to your benefit because if you make your posts in reader-friendly format, more will bother reading them) :
1) Use the "quote" tag, among others, for an easier reading
2) When quoting, try to quote the meat of the article instead of meat + potatos + salad + gravy
3) Try linking to your own previous posts, which contain lots of information already (I mean, 36,200 posts... you gotta have some info there that you can re-use)
Just a few tips...
1) Use the "quote" tag, among others, for an easier reading
2) When quoting, try to quote the meat of the article instead of meat + potatos + salad + gravy
3) Try linking to your own previous posts, which contain lots of information already (I mean, 36,200 posts... you gotta have some info there that you can re-use)
Just a few tips...
Sure, I'm giving him the reality to your image
The reality of a confused OCD sufferring extremist
That would make a great Hollywood movie!
I will not refute your claims - not worth my time. Especially as SAM already has, in two well documented posts -too much for even me to do more than skim. I do know that Israel passed a special law that denied the expelled Palestinians from even trying to use the Israeli courts to seek compensation. Perhaps SAM mentioned it and I just missed her reference in my quick skim.
BTW, you still are refusing to answer both my specific direct questions. Must be some common characteristic of the "Israel can do no wrong" posters. Mr. Spock never does answer either. I guess that refusing to answer is only bad form if someone else is doing it.
That is pretty lazy of you, professor
If you're dismissing everything I've said with "I don't see a link there!" then you've proven my original assessment of you correct, and you really are not worth any of my time.
It was nice "debating" a real "intellectual"
um that british mandate was refered to as palstine and transjordan. the palestians were supposed to get their own country let the land that would have gone the creation of said state israel took during the war so yeah it is stolen. the eastern half of the mandate of palestine was called transjordan and was land the jewish people never controlled at any point and there was no rational reason for it to be used to make a jewish homeland. so basically your saying the jews got shafted because they didn't get land that was never theres and was never part of any jewish country.Billy T, mi kurason, the more I read your posts the less I am convinced that you are worth my time.
Let me just tell you this:
Israel should under no circumstances take responsibility for the "palestinian" refugee problem from 1948. I won't concentrate too much on the fact that many of the initial 700,000 or so "refugees" were just foreign workers from surrounding areas who came to Palestine because Jews who came before them drained the swamps and created economic prosperity and started hiring... just the way people flock to the US (sometimes illegally) to find jobs and have a better life for themselves. Just because you have worked in Palestine for a few years does not make you "palestinian". I mean it in the sense that Arabs usually mean it -- that your family is from there.
Anyway, back to the other part whose families were from Palestine. Israel should never take responsibility for having those Arabs leave. The responsibility (and this is a pretty obvious thing) lies with the 7 Arab countries who together tried to gang-rape, murder, and destroy the tiny country which was created on only 6% of the area originally allocated for its creation.
Bear in mind that Jews lived in Palestine for many generations, and in some cases for centuries (some say that there has been a small but uninterrupted Jewish presence in Palestine since Jesus' time), and just like any people (minorities or otherwise) have a natural right to create their own state, so did the Jews.
So why are the Arab countries responsible for making "palestinians" "homeless"? Here's an incomplete list:
- The Arab countries have brought their armies to Israel and started bombing it. That's why people were made refugees.
- There were promisses made to the Arab inhabitants inside Israel by those Arab governments right before the war: "we're coming to attack, to completely destroy Israel, so why don't you just get out of the country for a while until we finish the job, and then you can return." Obviously that promise was not fulfilled as Israel was victorious. But who is responsible here? I think it's clear. In the least, Arab governments should compensate those refugees for advertising false promises. In Brazil if a company promises you something and doesn't deliver, you can sue them, can't you?
- The above promise was promised again and again over the last 60 years. "OK it didn't work the 1st time, but we're hatching a new plan, a much better one. Just wait a little while longer and you'll be able to "return". There have been 6 Arab-Israeli wars so far, and in all these wars the Arabs lost, and all the while the "palestinian refugees" are still waiting. It reminds me of Microsoft products in the late 90's and early 2000s... Bill Gates kept delivering broken and unfinished products, and kept promissing better products. People never learned and kept buying those future products which ended up being just as bad, if not worse
- What have the Arab countries done to help ease the "palestinian" suffering? Not much, other than to provide them military training and brainwashing. Most "palestinian refugees" who live in Arab countries to this very day are kept in refugee camps. They aren't allowed to own property or work outside of the camp, are not given citizenship despite living there for decades, and are generally treated like scum. I'm not talking about the Arab rhetoric about the poor "palestinians" -- I'm talking about the actual treatment.
In conclusion:
- Palestine was not "stolen"
- The Arab world is responsible for creating, and prolonging for 60 years the plight and misery of the "palestinians"
- The Arab world should therefore take responsibility for their actions and the results of those actions, and compensate those "refugees" with money, and at least citizenships and equal rights like the rest of their citizens and immigrants enjoy.
I'll give you another benefit of the doubt by assuming you don't know the above things (even though you are a retired professor with a Ph.D.)
There are other issues complicating the matter (e.g. jihadism) but I won't get into those now.
Oh, and by the way, i.bel, Israel did not "return" Gaza to the "palestinians". It simply gave it away. It has never been under "palestinian" control.
------------------------------------------
EDIT:
Just wanted to also mention that if Israel was into expulsions, they'd have finished the job. Instead, half of the Israeli Arabs stayed and are today an integral part of the Israeli scenery.
A note to SAM - you know I don't take you seriously or even bother reading the crap you write, so please don't respond to what I write.
Last edited:
We never had a debate - you never answered one question. You only complained (in your post 847) that SAM did not answer questions and made unsupported assertions, which pjdude 1219 shows were false in his post 876 just made! I do admit to being lazy, I seldom search, (not very good at it) so I let others domcument things. I thank them....It was nice "debating" a real "intellectual"
Last edited by a moderator:
and im sure you know all about the NAZIS, thinking like one.
thats crap. SAM has lied many times. she said the arabs wanted a bi national state and rejected the white book. she said the jews are at fault the holocaust happened. one time she deliberately left a part of a palastinian attack on jewish residents when she quoted from wiki*, she said that the gunman who killed 8 jewish kids a few weeks ago did it because he was molested by a rabbi and one time she even used the term "zionist propaganda".
none of this were either proven with quotes or references. so once again you are a liar, and your comrade SAM is a liar as well.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*upon being confronted with this lie her response was a photo of a palestinian kid crying, presumably by an israeli soldier.
Last edited:
Can you tell the post where SAM said the part I made bold? I am shocked it she did say that. It is an outrageous statement. The Jews were victims - 'scape goats.
I admit (and honest Jews should too) that there has been a sad dynamic for more than 1000 years of history. Jews have been abused and persecuted - Personally, I think it stems from what I admire most in the Jewish culture - The love of knowledge and learning. Simple literate people, be they the rednecks of Dixie or the peasants of Europe 100 years ago, need scape goats they can look down on and abuse.
Often Jews had to flee in the night with what they could carry. Not surprising that love of knowledge is high in the Jewish culture - it is valuable everywhere and does not weigh even one gram. Likewise, not surprising that most diamond cutters and polishers were Jews. - Diamonds are easy to transport in the middle of the night and hide. A very natural reaction to all this is that the Jews do tend to stick together or as their enemies put it "be clannish." Thus just as now there is a sad self-accelerating dynamic of hate there was an isolation (Jews lived in the ghetto) and some hate both ways for more than 1000 years.
Again if SAM said that she is terrible wrong. Can you prove she did? Give the post.
I have never said SAM is error free, always gives references or documentation, etc. Thus, I am not a liar to note that she usually does. I doubt if it serves your purposes to apologize, but you should.
-------------On your other post comments:
As far as your saying I think like a Nazi (because I did and do state that "collective punishment" is "very Nazi like.") you know little about me. All my life, sometimes at personal risk, I have defended the oppressed. I was a leader in the civil rights movement in Baltimore as a Graduate student. I actually play the role of Eisenhower did in the invasion of Europe. - Namely everyone (some days 200 people) got in the strike cars I told them to, hit the stores I told them too, when I told them to* etc. and in that summer we opened the restaurants in Baltimore to all. I was spit upon more times than I remember - once beaten by old lady's cane. Fortunate she was weak, need it and I caught most blows with my hand. You have your nerve to compare me to a Nazi. - I asume you are looking in the mirror and seeing someone who defends "collective punishment," when doing this.
------------------
*Our enemy, the Restuarant association, was well organized with a telephone allert system. We had to hit all our targets at the same time as if more than a couple of minutes late the doors would be locked and we could only picket outside, not sit at tables as integrated groups in the restuarant. Eisenhower had it easy - his troops had watches. Mine only used CPT. (Colored People's Time) One sunday we closed every nice restaruant all thur Sunday dinner time. - After that the restuarant association did a 180 trun and joined us to get the law passed, claiming they only wanted to be sure all acted togther. We were happy to let them put whatever face on it they wanted, but justice won.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status