News From Gaza

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[How hype views the GCs]

You can't pick and choose which sections you want to apply and which not to. You have to view all clauses in the context of the entire set of rules.

In any case, feel free to write an essay on
* why the GCs are not outdated and irrelevant,
* why they actually do provide protection to non-signatories that don't abide by them, and
* why should it apply to one side but not the other, but not on 'technical' grounds, but on substance.

I've repeatedly provided you the courtesy by following your tangents, now let's get back to my challenge to you, which you so unskillfully avoided meeting: It's time that you start condemning "Palestinian" terrorism 1/100th as much as you do Israeli counter-terrorism. And that you stop morally equating the 2.

Because when "Palestinians" kill Jewish kids on purpose, they celebrate. When Israelis kill Arab kids as an honest mistake, they apologize, feel terrible, and try to modify their procedures.

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That makes all the difference, morally. The "people" you defend are morally bankrupt and reprehensible (Hamas, their ilk and supporters). You continue to defend baby killers who are proud to be baby killers. Who teach the new generation to be baby killers. How does that make you feel? Oh, right. Tell me more why technically the word "oppression" doesn't really apply to what Hamas is doing, since they're technically not really a state. :rolleyes:

Hype, I hope you get help soon and join the rest of the world, just like this doytchbag did.
 
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Can you say "human shield"? Doesn't Hamas care what happens to Palestinian children when Hamas soldiers quite deservedly get attacked for rocket attacks on Israeli children?

It is a known fact that Israli army uses civilian palestininans and even children as human shields.
 
Billy T, as long as Hamas continues to operate in civilian areas, even your plan would kill civilians.
Yes, some, but I see this as about an order of magnitude reduction in the number killed by Israel. -Perhaps Israel wants to keep a 25 to 1 (or greater) kill ratio, so Israel is not interested in my plan or any other which will not eventually drive away or kill all the Palestinians?

Can you state how my plan is not at least a great reduction in innocents killed by Israel? My plan is a true "security wall" border, which requires about 100 meter wide strip along the borders of Israel, entirely on ISRAELI land - not a "land grab" (or more accurately a "water grab") by Israel.

Why would Israel only promptly firing counter battery rockets and artillery shells (instead of the routine random daily firing of about 20 shells into mainly empty lots, olive groves, beach areas, etc.) kill more? I do think that if Israel only fired into Palestine in direct, prompt, response to rocket launches (and only at the "back calculated launch point from the radar net data) there would be fewer killed (and with this policy, much less support for the terrorists by the innocent locals.)

It really is sad to see that 95+% of all the post here (and in similar threads) are concerned with blaming the other side, instead of trying to reduce the killing.

Please explain why your think otherwise (Instead of just asserting that POV).
 
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only at the "back calculated launch point from the radar net data

Even if there was readily available technology that could do this, and that is was affordable enough to cover the entire border, it would still destroy the area from which the rockets were launched, which inevitably seems to be a civilian area.
 
Even if there was readily available technology that could do this, and that is was affordable enough to cover the entire border, it would still destroy the area from which the rockets were launched, which inevitably seems to be a civilian area.
The rockets are usually fired from olive groves, fields etc. but if the terrorists did only fire from busy markets etc and If the Israeli counter battery fire was prompt (less than 15 seconds after first rocket launch about four Israeli artillery shells explode in that market), it would not happen many times as the locals would force the terrorists to go back to shooting from olive groves etc.*

No not the entire border (your text I made bold). That would be too expensive for the semi-automatic counter battery fire I think would be more protective of Israeli lives than Israel's current random shelling of fields, oilive groves, gardens, beaches, etc. (Israel only fires at specific cars, apartments, etc. near market crowds etc. that their intelligence leads them to believe has a "high value" targets. Often they are correct and get their man (and a few innocent bystanders who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.) These efforts are not directly in response to some particular rocket nor directed at the site from which it was launched. Usually they are US supplied missiles fired from US supplied helicopters.

I.e. there are only about three Israeli towns of any significant size within range of these crude rockets, which only hit inside the town a small fraction of the time as they are so crude and unguided. Israel already has more than enough of the mobile (sort of tank mounted) artillery pieces to place more than a dozen in each of those three or four high-risk border regions.

What is lacking is their integration and automation with a country wide radar net/ fire control system. The cost would not be even equal to a week of within Gaza ops. In fact, the US could give Israel the "cooperative engagement" computer automation and fire control system APL developed for the US navy which lets every ship in the entire carrier battle group have a common radar picture of an area more than 50 miles in diameter and fight as if it were one ship. Etc.

Compared to the political problems, the technical ones required by my plan are very simple and economical. Israel could even use the old first generation CIWS that it removed from its ships years ago as that CIWS is more than adequate to shoot down these incoming slow, un-guided, crude rockets, especially as they are not "sea skimmers" but follow high arcs and are going very slow at their highest trajectory points. (I assume those old CIWS are sitting in some warehouse somewhere now. Even the more modern ones now on the ships will soon be replaced by the Rolling Airframe Missiles, RAMs. Except for simple fast computers, Plan requires only 60 year old WWII technology. It is cheap - available from military surplus warehouses, except for a few tons of food annually for the killer-attack trained dogs.)

The truth is that Israel needs to lose 5 or 10 Israelis every year to justify killing 100s of Palestinians and making horrible conditions for millions of others. The obvious plan is to make the Palestinians go away or die. There are too many Palestinians to treat them like Israel is treating the Bedouins. both have their simple houses bulldozed into the ground, but few are concerned about the Bedouins and Israel does not say much about them as not one Bedouin has been a suicide bomber of launched one rocket. Their only crime is to be on land Israel wants to develop in the Sinai. Israel, like Australia a generation ago, is destroying the Bedouin's way of life "to educate the children" - forcing this nomadic people into "cities" are differ from Nazi concentration camps mainly in that (1) none are being actively killed; (2) there are schools; (3) there is no work to do.
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*Israel claims to be trying to change the behavior of the Palestinians firing rockets at border towns with its random daily shelling and occasional invasions. This is like trying to house break a dog with random beatings. That just makes the dog or the Palestinians more mad and vicious. What is need is immediate punishment directly associate with the pissing on the floor (by dog) or the firing of rockets (by terrorists) - not indiscriminate random artillery shells falling in Palestine.
 
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That makes all the difference, morally. The "people" you defend are morally bankrupt and reprehensible (Hamas, their ilk and supporters). You continue to defend baby killers who are proud to be baby killers. Who teach the new generation to be baby killers. How does that make you feel? Oh, right. Tell me more why technically the word "oppression" doesn't really apply to what Hamas is doing, since they're technically not really a state. :rolleyes:

And you are defending a system that compensated a soldier after he killed a little girl. A soldier who emptied his gun into her body as she tried to hide in a ditch. You want to talk about being morally bankrupt and reprehensible?

At the end of the day, both sides are as bad as each other.

How does the actions of that soldier make you feel Oth? After all, Israeli's are meant to be on the good side of this debate, are they not? One has to wonder at the morals of a society that deems fit to compensate a man who kills a child in cold blood. So before you attempt to comment on the morals of Hamas, be sure to look at the morals of the Israelis who see fit to slaughter small children on their way home from school and then confirm the "kill". Be sure to look into just how fucked up a society would have to be to compensate a man who kills a little girl.

I can assure you Oth, had a man hunted down a 13 year old girl and then killed her in any other country, he would have been tried as a murderer. Not compensated.

But hey, she was a Palestinian, so that's alright, eh Oth? So before you comment on militants who take pride in killing children, remind yourself that there are soldiers in Israel's army who would kill a child simply because she is 'from the other side of the road' and a Palestinian, and then get compensated and promoted for their actions.
 
The rockets are usually fired from olive groves, fields etc. but if the terrorists did only fire from busy markets etc and If the Israeli counter battery fire was prompt (less than 15 seconds after first rocket launch about four Israeli artillery shells explode in that market), it would not happen many times as the locals would force the terrorists to go back to shooting from olive groves etc.*

No.

The locals would complain, a couple would be singled out as "Israeli sympathizers" and either beaten or shot, and the rocketing would continue. How are unarmed civilians going to argue with men carrying AKs?
 
GeoffP: "How are unarmed civilians going to argue with men carrying AKs?"

Not all by themselves. We aren't often confronted with AKs in happier parts of the world, because reason and moral accountability have displaced aggression and violence to a greater extent (not that the culture of violence doesn't push back). Change happens when the force of reason displaces the force of violence. It is not a law of nature that every fight must regress into mortal violence in order for there to come a resolution. Unarmed civilians will successfully confront violence the moment there is sufficient support for justice, and rejection of injustice, that they don't stand alone.

Because Israel obviously has the upper hand in this conflict, it is appropriate that the greatest pressure for positive change be applied to the Israeli society. This is not to say that there is nothing wrong with violent Palestinian resistance- this is to say that the maximum de-escalatory leverage can and must be applied to Israel.

There are three possibilities: Israel will be allowed to complete their ethnic cleansing, and suffer the lasting consequences of the crimes. There will be a protracted, stalemate cycle of violence between the IDF and Palestinians turning to violence. Or, Israel will abandon zionism, along with the ethnic cleansing and violence that it requires- along with the ethnic separatism that is zionism's objective.

For the third option, the definitive battle is not being fought in Gaza. It is being fought right here, and everywhere the zionist ruse continues to assert that injustice and violence against Jews is more egregious than injustice and violence against any other ethnicity. It is being fought everywhere where criticism of zionist apartheid is dismissed as "anti-semitism", and as animosity for Jewish people. Until the world, and especially the USA can overcome the zionist moral jamming that is preventing honest appraisal of Israeli oppression of Palestinians, those who look down the threatening barrels of AKs and M-16s and other weapons are effectively alone. Many will die alone, for as long as the USAmerican public and the world finds Israeli apartheid acceptable enough to support and enable the mindless attrition of lives and property at a proportion chosen by Israel.

Tthose of us critical of zionism face so much personal attack whenever we speak our minds publicly for a reason. Zionists understand that world opinion, and especially US public opinion are essential to their power over Palestinians. So if you understand this, understand also that the rattle of rifles and the booming of rockets are only the end result of opinions. The culture of violence in the Levant is our culture of violence. Israel, and Israeli policy toward their non-Jewish neighbors critically depends upon world public opinion for its perpetuation. They are not going to resolve this peacefully on their own. Israel is presently on course for a "Final Solution" for Palestine that like its even more audacious Nazi prototype is no solution, and will never be final. Our choice is how far we are content to let this unjustifiable violence go before we defeat it with reason.
 
GeoffP: "How are unarmed civilians going to argue with men carrying AKs?"

Not all by themselves. ...Many will die alone, for as long as the US American public and the world finds Israeli apartheid acceptable enough to support and enable the mindless attrition of lives and property at a proportion chosen by Israel.... The culture of violence in the Levant is our culture of violence. Israel, and Israeli policy toward their non-Jewish neighbors critically depends upon world public opinion for its perpetuation. They are not going to resolve this peacefully on their own. Israel is presently on course for a "Final Solution" for Palestine that like its even more audacious Nazi prototype is no solution, and will never be final. Our choice is how far we are content to let this unjustifiable violence go before we defeat it with reason.
Congratulations on another excellent and thoughtful analysis, very well expressed. Yes, ultimately the US is mainly responsible for Israel’s slow extermination of the Palestine people as a culture and nation. - Israel's slower "final solution" to the Palestine problem is a US problem also.

In the case of the Nazi holocaust’s "final solution," most Europeans and almost all Americans honestly did not know it how extreme it was when it was happening. In contrast, Israeli slower version is well covered daily by all the world's media, especially TV. Not “fully covered” in western media; for example, the routine random daily shelling by Israeli artillery is not mentioned unless some particularly tragic thing results, like the family that was killed by a direct hit while picnicking on the beach. We will not have the luxury of claiming as many Germans can that "We did not know." The moral responsibility for this Israeli caused holocaust is clearly largely ours (America’s). Most of the rockets fired by Israel into apartment buildings are American made and fired from American made Apache helicopter gunships. Israel does make it own tanks and armored bulldozers for destroying apartments more economically, but many of their components, such as the motors etc are imported, I believe, from those who someday will not be able to claim "We did not know."

Israel may not be able to eradicate 6 million, in a few years as the Nazis did, but when the total over 60 to 80 years is added up, including those many children who died of malnutrition, poor sanitation or preventable childhood diseases, the Israeli holocausts total will be about the same as the Nazi holocausts total.

We will and do know this Israeli made holocaust is happening. Even the Israelis know and now some Israelis are using their word for “holocaust” to describe what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people.

The sad day when Israel has destroyed a more primitive people*, with stronger claim to the disputed land than Israel’s European Jews have, is surely coming if American continues to support Israel as if Israel could do no wrong. Fortunately, I think that support will terminate soon for two main reasons:

(1) Israel's high educational level and biotechnology advances.
(2) The global economic slowdown or depression and US's unsustainable debts.

Either one of which alone will be sufficient to terminate the Israeli slaughter of innocents in the Israeli version of the holocausts against the Palestinians. It is now more accurately descrbed as "collective punishment" rather than a full scale nazi style holocaust effort, but it is a holocaust in "slow motion."

On (1):
Israel will soon (less than a decade) find that the rockets and suicide bombers, which they cannot stop** with their current policy, are dispensing anthrax and killing hundreds if not thousands with each attack. I suspect that Iran is now in the final stages of development of anthrax weapons. It is so much easier and cheaper than developing a nuclear bomb. Also there is no IBEC (International Biologic Enforcement Commission) or treaty, like the IAEC.
When the first load of anthrax is spread in Israel, many Israelis will then understand the foolishness of their current policy, but it may be too late for Israel to survive. I hope that is not the case. Israelis are in general well educated and may be able to foresee where the current policy is leading them in time to avert a "final solution" that they did not intend.

On (2):
Israel receives at least an order of magnitude more US support (measured in dollar values) per person than any other nation. (I have not studied this in detail - just guessing, but I would not be the least surprised if the correct number is 100 times more than any other nation on a per capita basis when the private contributions are included along with the value of all the military equipment etc. and direct financial aid from US government.) I may be wrong in my long standing prediction that the US and EU are headed for the world's worst depression in the next few years, but certainly now most will agree that the burdened of such generous support for Israel will be recognized and reduced by demand of Joe Americans, many of whom cannot support their own financial needs. Israel is not able to "go it alone" - the current policy is a failure as it is not stopping the rockets or suicide bombers. This failure will become much more obvious when the domestic economic needs of the US terminate the transfer of US wealth to Israel.

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*The Sinai Bedouins and their nomadic life style are also being destroyed by Israel. They have not launched one rocket or sent one suicide bomber. Their only “crime” is to have lived for more than 10,000 years on land that Israel wants to develop. Most Americans can at least honestly claim to be ignorant of this much smaller ethnic cleansing holocaust, but I cannot, so I mention it too. To speak out against these evil acts is a moral duty, IMHO. Not only that, it is also an effort to see that Israel has a future / can survive both items (1) and (2) above.

**According to the Israeli government, as reported by CNN, 11 rockets fell yesterday in Israel. The killing of about 150, mostly innocent people, in this five day invasion effort was worse than "ineffective" - it recruited dozens more of willing suicide bombers etc.
 
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"excellent and thoughtful"

Thanks, and right back at you, Billy T

I'm a little less alarmed than you about what weaponry is/will be provided the Palestinians. I suspect that the most powerful people in the Mideast are eager to pay lip-service, while content to leave the Palestinians to their worst possible fate.
 
...I suspect that the most powerful people in the Mideast are eager to pay lip-service, while content to leave the Palestinians to their worst possible fate.
I would agree with that, except for fact Israel is having success in driving Palestinians into other Arab countries (especially neighboring Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria). These migrants are causing considerable and continuing economic burden and even great threat to their political stability, especially in Lebanon.
 
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Gaza strip in worst condition ever.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/06/israelandthepalestinians.humanrights

John Dugard, the UN special rapporteur on Palestinian human rights in the occupied territories, described Palestinian terrorism (!!!) as the "inevitable consequence" of Israeli occupation and laws that resemble apartheid. Palestinian terrorist acts are to be deplored but "must be understood as being a painful but inevitable consequence of colonialism, apartheid or occupation", wrote Dugard, whose report accused Israel of acts and policies consistent with all three.

There was no serious reaction by the international powers to make Israel change its policies. It keeps violating the basic human rights of Palestininans, destroying their infrastructure, occupying more and more of their land, ignoring the verdict by Internation Court of Justice to stop building its "wall of shame",... and then keeps accusing Iran of not abiding by international laws. Israel is a blatant terrorist state supported by shameless terrorist states.

http://www.pchrgaza.org/Library/Dugard.pdf
 
Here is the latest report:

A coalition of eight British-based human rights organizations on Thursday released a scathing report in claiming that the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip is at its worst point since Israel captured the territory in 1967.

The report said that more than 1.1 million people, about 80 percent of Gaza's residents, are now dependent on food aid, as opposed to 63 percent in 2006, unemployment is close to 40 percent and close to 70 percent of the 110,000 workers employed in the private sector have lost their jobs.

It also said that hospitals are suffering from power cuts of up to 12 hours a day, and the water and sewage systems were close to collapse, with 40-50 million liters of sewage pouring into the sea daily.

The 16-page report - sponsored by Amnesty, along with CARE International U.K., CAFOD, Christian Aid, Medecins du Monde UK, Oxfam, Save the Children U.K. and Trocaire - calls on the British government to exert greater pressure on Israel and to reverse its policy on not negotiating with Gaza's Hamas rulers.

How much you wanna bet this is not a priority in the War on Terrrrooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrz!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/961340.html

Here's a titbit from the Talkback:

For four years, from 1988 to 1992, Israel closed down all Palestinian schools, colleges and universities in the West Bank and Gaza, including all kindergartens as well.

Stuff like that really contributes to peace. Nothing like blocking education for success.
 
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I suppose time has really come for the Palestinian people to remind the world that "You are either with us or against us!"
 
The struggle between Hamas and Fatah over Gaza was not started by Hamas as many thought. It was a pre-thought plan to start a civil war between the Palestinians and give full U.S. support to the corrupt (and treacherous Abbas Band) to destroy the democratically elected Hamas using the American weapons (which are the same weapons killing Palesitnian children over the past week).

The Al Deira Hotel, in Gaza City, is a haven of calm in a land beset by poverty, fear, and violence. In the middle of December 2007, I sit in the hotel’s airy restaurant, its windows open to the Mediterranean, and listen to a slight, bearded man named Mazen Asad abu Dan describe the suffering he endured 11 months before at the hands of his fellow Palestinians. Abu Dan, 28, is a member of Hamas, the Iranian-backed Islamist organization that has been designated a terrorist group by the United States, but I have a good reason for taking him at his word: I’ve seen the video.

To hear an interview with David Rose and to see documents he uncovered, click here.

It shows abu Dan kneeling, his hands bound behind his back, and screaming as his captors pummel him with a black iron rod. “I lost all the skin on my back from the beatings,” he says. “Instead of medicine, they poured perfume on my wounds. It felt as if they had taken a sword to my injuries.”

On January 26, 2007, abu Dan, a student at the Islamic University of Gaza, had gone to a local cemetery with his father and five others to erect a headstone for his grandmother. When they arrived, however, they found themselves surrounded by 30 armed men from Hamas’s rival, Fatah, the party of Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. “They took us to a house in north Gaza,” abu Dan says. “They covered our eyes and took us to a room on the sixth floor.”

The video reveals a bare room with white walls and a black-and-white tiled floor, where abu Dan’s father is forced to sit and listen to his son’s shrieks of pain. Afterward, abu Dan says, he and two of the others were driven to a market square. “They told us they were going to kill us. They made us sit on the ground.” He rolls up the legs of his trousers to display the circular scars that are evidence of what happened next: “They shot our knees and feet—five bullets each. I spent four months in a wheelchair.”

Abu Dan had no way of knowing it, but his tormentors had a secret ally: the administration of President George W. Bush.

A clue comes toward the end of the video, which was found in a Fatah security building by Hamas fighters last June. Still bound and blindfolded, the prisoners are made to echo a rhythmic chant yelled by one of their captors: “By blood, by soul, we sacrifice ourselves for Muhammad Dahlan! Long live Muhammad Dahlan!”

There is no one more hated among Hamas members than Muhammad Dahlan, long Fatah’s resident strongman in Gaza. Dahlan, who most recently served as Abbas’s national-security adviser, has spent more than a decade battling Hamas. Dahlan insists that abu Dan was tortured without his knowledge, but the video is proof that his followers’ methods can be brutal.

Bush has met Dahlan on at least three occasions. After talks at the White House in July 2003, Bush publicly praised Dahlan as “a good, solid leader.” In private, say multiple Israeli and American officials, the U.S. president described him as “our guy.”

The United States has been involved in the affairs of the Palestinian territories since the Six-Day War of 1967, when Israel captured Gaza from Egypt and the West Bank from Jordan. With the 1993 Oslo accords, the territories acquired limited autonomy, under a president, who has executive powers, and an elected parliament. Israel retains a large military presence in the West Bank, but it withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

In recent months, President Bush has repeatedly stated that the last great ambition of his presidency is to broker a deal that would create a viable Palestinian state and bring peace to the Holy Land. “People say, ‘Do you think it’s possible, during your presidency?’ ” he told an audience in Jerusalem on January 9. “And the answer is: I’m very hopeful.”

The next day, in the West Bank capital of Ramallah, Bush acknowledged that there was a rather large obstacle standing in the way of this goal: Hamas’s complete control of Gaza, home to some 1.5 million Palestinians, where it seized power in a bloody coup d’état in June 2007. Almost every day, militants fire rockets from Gaza into neighboring Israeli towns, and President Abbas is powerless to stop them. His authority is limited to the West Bank.

It’s “a tough situation,” Bush admitted. “I don’t know whether you can solve it in a year or not.” What Bush neglected to mention was his own role in creating this mess.

According to Dahlan, it was Bush who had pushed legislative elections in the Palestinian territories in January 2006, despite warnings that Fatah was not ready. After Hamas—whose 1988 charter committed it to the goal of driving Israel into the sea—won control of the parliament, Bush made another, deadlier miscalculation.

Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)

But the secret plan backfired, resulting in a further setback for American foreign policy under Bush. Instead of driving its enemies out of power, the U.S.-backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of Gaza.

Some sources call the scheme “Iran-contra 2.0,” recalling that Abrams was convicted (and later pardoned) for withholding information from Congress during the original Iran-contra scandal under President Reagan. There are echoes of other past misadventures as well: the C.I.A.’s 1953 ouster of an elected prime minister in Iran, which set the stage for the 1979 Islamic revolution there; the aborted 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion, which gave Fidel Castro an excuse to solidify his hold on Cuba; and the contemporary tragedy in Iraq.

Within the Bush administration, the Palestinian policy set off a furious debate. One of its critics is David Wurmser, the avowed neoconservative, who resigned as Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief Middle East adviser in July 2007, a month after the Gaza coup.

Wurmser accuses the Bush administration of “engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory.” He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. “It looks to me that what happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen,” Wurmser says.

The botched plan has rendered the dream of Middle East peace more remote than ever, but what really galls neocons such as Wurmser is the hypocrisy it exposed. “There is a stunning disconnect between the president’s call for Middle East democracy and this policy,” he says. “It directly contradicts it.”
Preventive Security

Bush was not the first American president to form a relationship with Muhammad Dahlan. “Yes, I was close to Bill Clinton,” Dahlan says. “I met Clinton many times with [the late Palestinian leader Yasser] Arafat.” In the wake of the 1993 Oslo accords, Clinton sponsored a series of diplomatic meetings aimed at reaching a permanent Middle East peace, and Dahlan became the Palestinians’ negotiator on security.
 
chuuush: 'I suppose time has really come for the Palestinian people to remind the world that "You are either with us or against us!" '


The Marquis: "Remind, as if such an ultimatum was a fact at some point?"


It's a pervasive tactic. "With us or against us" is constantly employed by the government, major media, militarists, the Christian far-right, and pro-zionists in the USA. I prefer "Which Side Are You On" in the clearer choice we all have in almost everything we do, between contributing to violence, or contributing to reason.
 
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