New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

[Michael]

Except for one minor detail, it ain't true.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...-no-more-taxpayer-subsidized-profits-for-you/

http://www.businessinsider.com/wal-mart-relies-on-taxpayers-to-subsidize-low-wages-2013-6

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...care-policy-medicaid-obamacare_n_2220152.html


How surprising right wingers are lying to us again. Unfortunately there is no surprise there, it's just more of the same kind of dishonesty which is now all too familiar to us. It's just the latest in a long series of right wing lies about Obamacare. My unsubsidized Obamacare is similar to my corporate healthcare and a few dollars cheaper to boot.

Walmart's job is to sell cheaply made Chinese shit and low quality food to obese Americans, NOT to provide them a full time job. Part-time worker at these stores was ONLY supposed to be for kids in highschool or needing to make a little extra cash while going to University OR MAYBE the occasional stay at home parent looking to make a little vacation money.

So, what's your solution? Get rid of part time work?! That's asinine.

Walmart has part-time staff. Those part-time staff are not afforded benefits of full-time staff because what they have to sell is not worth hiring full-time. Therefor they will not receive the benefits of people valued enough to hire full-time. I don't care if it's Walmart or if it's the University of Michigan - PART TIME STAFF will not be given full-time benefits. No amount of magic thinking is going to up-turn the laws of mathematics Joe.


The real problem is Cogs - and that the Public Schools pump their functionally illiterate arses out by the millions a year. Perfect for a dumbed-down public that's just that much easier to control with idiotic political messaging like "No more taxpayer subsidized profits for you". There's so many Cogs, and not enough businesses, that Cogs can not sell their one and only service (labor) into the market at a reasonable price and are stuck in dead-end part-time work.

This is the inevitable outcome of Progressive Policies across the last 110 years.

That the Federal Government has so hyper-regulated the markets in favor of chain-retailers and fast-food chains that no 'free' American can fight their way past the millions of miles of paperwork to actually start a business and compete. Most of those that try are so functionally illiterate they would never be able to read and understand all the regulations and taxes they'd be liable for. Those that do, are stuck dealing with fat obese Mericans who'd rather waddle their fat arses into a Walmart - regardless of what some politician they voted for told them!!! At the end of the day, said Cog are STUCK being a Cog that the State made them into! This is NOT the fault of Walmart. Walmart is just extremely apt at playing the game called Fascist USSA. But they didn't 'create' the game. Walmart is powerless - they actually can't do shit. ONLY the State has the right to turn lose it's police force against innocent people trying to compete in these hyper-regulated markets. This is how Walmart wins.

Now, you may want to ask yourself this, all those welfare queens living in various Slum-Houses - they are living off the Government teet/general welfare - do their Slum-Lords own them a full time job? Maybe they do? Maybe we need to end any and all subsidizes and living assistants and force Slum-Lords who have been getting fat off the public teet to PAY FOR their tenants! To provide them with income? How does that sound? Stupid enough yet? Because this is how stupid it is to expect part-time businesses to pay full-time benefits.

How's this one sound: "No more taxpayer subsidized profits for Slum-Lords! Tax the Slum-Lords 95%!!!" Don't worry Joe, when it becomes the means of being elected, you WILL hear "Progressives" demagogue the public. History shows this is how the game of Fascism ends - always, without exception. But hey, look at it this way, we still have to have another couple big Wars to burn-out of the Cogs. You know, the ones flag-waving 'defending the nation from X' (insert: Nazi's, Gooks, Commies, Terrorists, IslamoFascists, Mericans....)




If we want affordable healthcare we need:
- sound money (end the fed)
- free markets (end regulations)
- property rights (end income tax)
- law (courts)

BUT, that isn't going to happen. So, on wards and down wards we go.

 

[Michael]

Except for one minor detail, it ain't true.

Oh, and it is true. Full time Walmart staff are given a much better deal relative to someone forced onto ObamaCare. Part-time staff at Walmart (or anywhere else for that matter - including Kmart, Cosco, Joe's Kitchen, etc...) are PART-TIME these jobs are entry level and generally have no benefits. They didn't when I was a kid, they still don't.

But, I'm sure you little Progressives will put an end to that, and in the process putting an end to most mom and pop small business - regulating them out of business and allowing for the expansion of more big box tops and fast-food chains thus turning the USSA into an even more bland, boring, shit-hole, progressive paradise (SEE: Detroit).


Good thing we have those Public Schools pumping out functional illiterates by the millions - Walmart will never need to worry about competition for labor.
Good thing we have the State hyper-regulating all aspect of all markets - those Cogs won't worry about starting their own small business.
Good thing we have the Federal Reserve destroying our way of life - those Cogs didn't want much out of this world other than to be Tax Cattle and die.

Lucky us we have magic thinking, sound bites and demagoguery to replace sound logic and ethics.

 

[joepistole]

Walmart's job is to sell cheaply made Chinese shit and low quality food to obese Americans, NOT to provide them a full time job. Part-time worker at these stores was ONLY supposed to be for kids in highschool or needing to make a little extra cash while going to University OR MAYBE the occasional stay at home parent looking to make a little vacation money.

So, what's your solution? Get rid of part time work?! That's asinine.

Walmart has part-time staff. Those part-time staff are not afforded benefits of full-time staff because what they have to sell is not worth hiring full-time. Therefor they will not receive the benefits of people valued enough to hire full-time. I don't care if it's Walmart or if it's the University of Michigan - PART TIME STAFF will not be given full-time benefits. No amount of magic thinking is going to up-turn the laws of mathematics Joe.


The real problem is Cogs - and that the Public Schools pump their functionally illiterate arses out by the millions a year. Perfect for a dumbed-down public that's just that much easier to control with idiotic political messaging like "No more taxpayer subsidized profits for you". There's so many Cogs, and not enough businesses, that Cogs can not sell their one and only service (labor) into the market at a reasonable price and are stuck in dead-end part-time work.

This is the inevitable outcome of Progressive Policies across the last 110 years.

That the Federal Government has so hyper-regulated the markets in favor of chain-retailers and fast-food chains that no 'free' American can fight their way past the millions of miles of paperwork to actually start a business and compete. Most of those that try are so functionally illiterate they would never be able to read and understand all the regulations and taxes they'd be liable for. Those that do, are stuck dealing with fat obese Mericans who'd rather waddle their fat arses into a Walmart - regardless of what some politician they voted for told them!!! At the end of the day, said Cog are STUCK being a Cog that the State made them into! This is NOT the fault of Walmart. Walmart is just extremely apt at playing the game called Fascist USSA. But they didn't 'create' the game. Walmart is powerless - they actually can't do shit. ONLY the State has the right to turn lose it's police force against innocent people trying to compete in these hyper-regulated markets. This is how Walmart wins.

Now, you may want to ask yourself this, all those welfare queens living in various Slum-Houses - they are living off the Government teet/general welfare - do their Slum-Lords own them a full time job? Maybe they do? Maybe we need to end any and all subsidizes and living assistants and force Slum-Lords who have been getting fat off the public teet to PAY FOR their tenants! To provide them with income? How does that sound? Stupid enough yet? Because this is how stupid it is to expect part-time businesses to pay full-time benefits.

How's this one sound: "No more taxpayer subsidized profits for Slum-Lords! Tax the Slum-Lords 95%!!!" Don't worry Joe, when it becomes the means of being elected, you WILL hear "Progressives" demagogue the public. History shows this is how the game of Fascism ends - always, without exception. But hey, look at it this way, we still have to have another couple big Wars to burn-out of the Cogs. You know, the ones flag-waving 'defending the nation from X' (insert: Nazi's, Gooks, Commies, Terrorists, IslamoFascists, Mericans....)




If we want affordable healthcare we need:
- sound money (end the fed)
- free markets (end regulations)
- property rights (end income tax)
- law (courts)

BUT, that isn't going to happen. So, on wards and down wards we go.

Aside from being wrong on all the above, I think you missed the point. Walmart healthcare prior to Obamacare for most of its employees was the state (i.e. Medicaid). For full time employees it offered healthcare savings accounts. Healthcare savings accounts are not healthcare insurance. They are saving accounts. And the healthcare insurance Walmart did offer was cheap and is now considered substandard. Under Obamacare all employers with more than 50 employees (that incudes Walmart) must offer their employees good quality healthcare. So the bottom line here is that the healthcare Walmart employees received prior to Obamacare is in no way comparable to the coverage they now have.

 

[joepistole]

Oh, and it is true. Full time Walmart staff are given a much better deal relative to someone forced onto ObamaCare.

Well that's not what your first post said. But of course, any one receiving employer subsidized healthcare is getting a better deal than someone who is not getting subsidized healthcare. But that has always been the case. It has nothing to do with Obamacare.

 

[Grumpy]

Michael

Freedom is inherent in being human. No one has to PAY for their freedom. You are BORN free

Freedom is a hard won condition allowed you by the civilization you happened to be born in. By far, the majority of humans born on this planet were not free from birth or at any time in their lives. It's only been true(relatively)in the US for about 150 years now. My black friends would say it's not true now(with some justification, we still arrest 50% of all black males before their 23rd birthday, thus keeping them in an artificially created lower class status). Our country does not always use it's military might wisely or morally, but without it you would not be free(though that would still be true if we spent 25% of what we spend on defense). Like it or not, your personal freedoms are a result of government, government is the result of politics and politics is people deciding together the rules under which we will live. ALL freedoms are constrained, you do not have a right to pee on my leg. If you live among other people, peeing on their legs is also not something you are free to do. Since everyone feels the same about this leg wetting problem, everyone decides to pool their resources and get a pot. Therefore everyone then has a pot to piss in and civilization is born. Your whole ranting idiocy can be boiled down to the fact that you don't want to pay anything for the pot, but you expect to be able to pee, anyway. I'm sorry, if you don't pay for your share of the pot, you can just hold it, forever(or receive a beating from whomever's leg you just peed on). You have to earn that freedom for you and yours as those before you earned that freedom for themselves and you, part of earning that freedom is paying your fair share to fund the kind of civilization you want to be free in. And if you decide that you just don't want to pay, you're damn right the rest of us will make you pay, anyway. We only have to force the stupid, the greedy, the sneaky, the dishonest, the selfish, the ideologically retarded and the deadbeats.

Grumpy

 

[Michael]

Freedom is a hard won condition allowed you by the civilization you happened to be born in. By far, the majority of humans born on this planet were not free from birth or at any time in their lives. It's only been true(relatively)in the US for about 150 years now. My black friends would say it's not true now(with some justification, we still arrest 50% of all black males before their 23rd birthday, thus keeping them in an artificially created lower class status). Our country does not always use it's military might wisely or morally, but without it you would not be free(though that would still be true if we spent 25% of what we spend on defense). Like it or not, your personal freedoms are a result of government, government is the result of politics and politics is people deciding together the rules under which we will live. ALL freedoms are constrained, you do not have a right to pee on my leg. If you live among other people, peeing on their legs is also not something you are free to do. Since everyone feels the same about this leg wetting problem, everyone decides to pool their resources and get a pot. Therefore everyone then has a pot to piss in and civilization is born. Your whole ranting idiocy can be boiled down to the fact that you don't want to pay anything for the pot, but you expect to be able to pee, anyway. I'm sorry, if you don't pay for your share of the pot, you can just hold it, forever(or receive a beating from whomever's leg you just peed on). You have to earn that freedom for you and yours as those before you earned that freedom for themselves and you, part of earning that freedom is paying your fair share to fund the kind of civilization you want to be free in. And if you decide that you just don't want to pay, you're damn right the rest of us will make you pay, anyway. We only have to force the stupid, the greedy, the sneaky, the dishonest, the selfish, the ideologically retarded and the deadbeats.

You really have no idea what you're talking about and commit so many logical fallacies that I'm not going to bother listing all (or even most) of them.

1. Historical fallacy - look it up.
2. Civil liberties - look it up.
3. Civilization - look it up.

RE: If you live among other people, peeing on their legs is also not something you are free to do. Since everyone feels the same about this leg wetting problem, everyone decides to pool their resources and get a pot. Therefore everyone then has a pot to piss in and civilization is born.

This is a great example of *magic* thinking. "And then everyone decides to flap their arms and fly". Sorry, but this isn't how a piss pot came about. It's called division of labor (look it up). AND while money (look it up) needn't be used - most often it was promise trading(look it up) but within civilizations money was used as it is much more efficient. Which is why the soundness (look it up) of money is an important aspect to a moral (look it up) society. The following is magic thinking: "everyone decides to pool their resources and *poof magic happens and they* get a pot". No, that's not how a piss pot comes about. Some people have to mine ore. Some people have to smelt metal. Some provide food. Some shape metal. Etc... THEN someone decides to buy some metal with sound money in a free-trade to make a receptacle for people to piss into. But get this, they didn't that for the fun of it. They did it because piss is then collected and used in tanning. So they take the piss and sell it to the tanner. Thus, so long as no one is being forced to do anything against their will, and no one is using force against another person then we'd call this society an ANARCHY (look it up). All the free trade would be the 'economy' (look it up).

In Grumpy's world *poof* magic happens a piss pot falls from the sky. Or worse, a few thugs get together in a gang and start stealing the hard work from the people around them by using FORCE. Once they get powerful enough they define the area of land and call it a State and call themselves the Government. But, make no mistake - they're still a gang. The really clever ones create their very own currency and force all the hard working people to pay the State's Government IN fiat currency. Then the stealing get's really easy - it's just a matter of printing up more currency. This is quite nice because not only can they steal from the people, they can let the people steal from their own children - and their children's children by selling 30 year T-bills. How nice.

Let's see how that story ends.

 

[Michael]

Gallup Poll, January 10, 2014:
Americans Still Say Health Law More Harmful Than Helpful

Don't worry, as America continues to bail out the richest 1%, the middle class and the poor will be expected to pay their own way for the first time in 80 years. No more selling debt on children - no one is buying. Thus, Americans can feel the real pain of hyper-regulation and a society of "public" schooled adult-sized children throwing a temper tantrum.

 

[joepistole]

You really have no idea what you're talking about and commit so many logical fallacies that I'm not going to bother listing all (or even most) of them.

1. Historical fallacy - look it up.
2. Civil liberties - look it up.
3. Civilization - look it up.

RE: If you live among other people, peeing on their legs is also not something you are free to do. Since everyone feels the same about this leg wetting problem, everyone decides to pool their resources and get a pot. Therefore everyone then has a pot to piss in and civilization is born.

This is a great example of *magic* thinking. "And then everyone decides to flap their arms and fly". Sorry, but this isn't how a piss pot came about. It's called division of labor (look it up). AND while money (look it up) needn't be used - most often it was promise trading(look it up) but within civilizations money was used as it is much more efficient. Which is why the soundness (look it up) of money is an important aspect to a moral (look it up) society. The following is magic thinking: "everyone decides to pool their resources and *poof magic happens and they* get a pot". No, that's not how a piss pot comes about. Some people have to mine ore. Some people have to smelt metal. Some provide food. Some shape metal. Etc... THEN someone decides to buy some metal with sound money in a free-trade to make a receptacle for people to piss into. But get this, they didn't that for the fun of it. They did it because piss is then collected and used in tanning. So they take the piss and sell it to the tanner. Thus, so long as no one is being forced to do anything against their will, and no one is using force against another person then we'd call this society an ANARCHY (look it up). All the free trade would be the 'economy' (look it up).

In Grumpy's world *poof* magic happens a piss pot falls from the sky. Or worse, a few thugs get together in a gang and start stealing the hard work from the people around them by using FORCE. Once they get powerful enough they define the area of land and call it a State and call themselves the Government. But, make no mistake - they're still a gang. The really clever ones create their very own money and force all the hard working people to pay the State's Government IN that money. Then the stealing get's really easy - it's just a matter of printing up more money. This is quite nice because not only can they steal from the people, they can let the people steal from their own children - and their children's children by selling 30 year T-bills. How nice.

Let's see how that story ends.

That’s hogwash Michael. Grumpy was very succinct, reasoned and factual. Unlike you Michael, Grumpy doesn’t need to reinvent the English language, invent facts, and take leaps of faith in order to make his points. Just because you and your ideology rely heavily on magic and fear, it doesn’t mean others do also.

Grumpy isn’t the demagogue here.

 

[joepistole]

Gallup Poll, January 10, 2014:
Americans Still Say Health Law More Harmful Than Helpful

Don't worry, as America continues to bail out the richest 1%, the middle class and the poor will be expected to pay their own way for the first time in 80 years. No more selling debt on children - no one is buying. Thus, Americans can feel the real pain of hyper-regulation and a society of "public" schooled adult-sized children throwing a temper tantrum.

Even if everything you said were true, which it isn't, your solution, giving all the power to the 1%, isn't going to solve the problems of middle class and the poor. Most people like the things Obamcare really does, they just don't like the fictional version of Obamacare people like the Koch brothers, the guys who finance your ideology, have been selling them.

 

[Michael]

That’s hogwash Michael. Grumpy was very succinct, reasoned and factual. Unlike you Michael, Grumpy doesn’t need to reinvent the English language, invent facts, and take leaps of faith in order to make his points. Just because you and your ideology rely heavily on magic and fear, it doesn’t mean others do also.

Grumpy isn’t the demagogue here.

Joe, the way this works is you find something you think is incorrect, then you make a sound argument why. What you did just now was babble.

 

[Michael]

Even if everything you said were true, which it isn't, your solution, giving all the power to the 1%,

'My' solution is free-markets - including 'money' via currency competition. 'My' solution is repealing the income tax. See, I actually know the poor, when given half a chance, can easily out compete the rich - who grow fat off rent-seeking.

Most people like the things Obamcare really does,

No they don't. Most people like 'free' - like the 'free' roads or the 'cheap' postage. Most people like $1.25 letters to be delivered for $0.25 cents. As for OblahmaCare - don't worry. The Insurance companies are going to be bailed out through 30 Year T-bond sales thereby allowing grandparents to stick their kids and grandkids with the healthcare bills whether those children like it or not. See how this game is played? Their grandchildren will be forced to pay one way or another. It's called STEALING Joe - and the Government has it down to a fine art.

For a while anyway, but not forever.

 

[joepistole]

'My' solution is free-markets - including 'money' via currency competition. 'My' solution is repealing the income tax. See, I actually know the poor, when given half a chance, can easily out compete the rich - who grow fat off rent-seeking.

No they don't. Most people like 'free' - like the 'free' roads or the 'cheap' postage. Most people like $1.25 letters to be delivered for $0.25 cents. As for OblahmaCare - don't worry. The Insurance companies are going to be bailed out through 30 Year T-bond sales thereby allowing grandparents to stick their kids and grandkids with the healthcare bills whether those children like it or not. See how this game is played? Their grandchildren will be forced to pay one way or another. It's called STEALING Joe - and the Government has it down to a fine art.

For a while anyway, but not forever.

Well we already have free markets. We already have a currency that competes with other currencies. The presence of regulation does not mean markets are not free. Regulations define the marketplace. Participants are free to compete within the marketplace. Repealing the income tax basically defunds government. It defunds police and fire departments, road construction and maintenance, all the regulatory agencies which protect our food supply and keeps our air, land and water free from excessive pollution. And none of this is new to you. It has all been explained to you hundreds if not thousands of times before.

And you really think that some poor undereducated schmuck is going to out-compete a well-educated wealthy schmuck like any of the Koch brothers? With government neutered by the elimination of the income tax, do you really think the Koch brothers and those like them are going to stop using government to screw the lower classes?

So what you are advocating is for policies that will hand all the power over to the one percent and relying on their Randian sense of morality to care for the 99%. Ironically, the people who fund your ideology have grown quite "fat" rent seeking. Why do you suppose they are financing your ideology?

And yeah, imagine that, people like having access to affordable healthcare. People like it that insurance companies can no longer cancel your health insurance when you become ill as was the case prior to Obamacare.

 

[Grumpy]

Michael

You really have no idea what you're talking about and commit so many logical fallacies that I'm not going to bother listing all (or even most) of them.

In other words, you can't debunk so you just rant. Your idiotic rants show only the level of non-thinking ideology you have sunk to. I give up on trying to educate the ineducable, but will leave you with this...

Believe what you like, rave all you want about the injustices you(and you alone)perceive, but reality has a way of slapping the ignorant up side the head, as you will find when your "philosophy" rubs up against more intelligent and reasoned viewpoints. All you have posted here is distortions and lies about reality, the truth will still be there when you climb down from your soapbox:soapbox:

Grumpy

 

[Michael]

Well we already have free markets.

We do not have free markets.

Here's the definition: an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Why don't you list a single 'market' that is a free-market in the USA. One that is totally unrestricted. One that doesn't have ANY interference from the thugs who run the geopolitical entity called the USA. Name one.

And yeah, imagine that, people like having access to affordable healthcare.

Not it will not - and as people see how fascism, unlike free markets with competition, does not bring them quality healthcare - they will stop buying. When they stop buying the Government will then have to bail out the insurance companies. This means it will have to raise taxes or sell child-labor via 30 year T-bonds to raise the money. Either way, the poor will continue to get screwed and the rich will easily afford high quality healthcare.

People like it that insurance companies can no longer cancel your health insurance when you become ill as was the case prior to Obamacare.

Let me get this straight - you think healthcare insurance companies can cancel your health insurance - WHEN YOU ARE SICK? Do tell me Joe, how is it an insurance company, who has signed a legal agreement with you to pay for a certain amount of your healthcare expenses, are legally allowed to back out of their contractual legal agreement?

OR - are you making up more bullshit?


The best way to ensure the products and services are valued, is through free-market competition. If you find the healthcare products and services are shit - that's because we in the "Land of the Free", good ole' USSA, do NOT HAVE free markets. A few poor un-free market products are puked up as an example of 'free market competition' and these goods and services are of poor quality, overpriced and undervalued.

What would you expect from Rent-Seeking?!

 

[paddoboy]

Not it will not - and as people see how fascism, unlike free markets with competition, does not bring them quality healthcare - they will stop buying. When they stop buying the Government will then have to bail out the insurance companies. This means it will have to raise taxes or sell child-labor via 30 year T-bonds to raise the money. Either way, the poor will continue to get screwed and the rich will easily afford high quality healthcare.

Australia's Universal Health Care system has operated successfully now for nearly 40 years.......
If any right wing government [as we now have] did anything to change it, they would have a revolt on their hands.

 

[joepistole]

We do not have free markets.

Here's the definition: an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Why don't you list a single 'market' that is a free-market in the USA. One that is totally unrestricted. One that doesn't have ANY interference from the thugs who run the geopolitical entity called the USA. Name one.

One of the things you don’t understand Michael is that industries can be regulated without restricting competition. Car production is regulated, but that doesn’t mean the auto industry isn’t a competitive market. It is a very competitive market.

Not it will not - and as people see how fascism, unlike free markets with competition, does not bring them quality healthcare - they will stop buying. When they stop buying the Government will then have to bail out the insurance companies. This means it will have to raise taxes or sell child-labor via 30 year T-bonds to raise the money. Either way, the poor will continue to get screwed and the rich will easily afford high quality healthcare.

As has been pointed out to you numerous times over the course of years, access to affordable healthcare is not in any way similar to fascism. There are many models of more efficient and more effective healthcare that what we have had in The United States. And they all involve some level of government involvement. On the other hand you cannot similarly point to successful libertarian healthcare models.

Let me get this straight - you think healthcare insurance companies can cancel your health insurance - WHEN YOU ARE SICK? Do tell me Joe, how is it an insurance company, who has signed a legal agreement with you to pay for a certain amount of your healthcare expenses, are legally allowed to back out of their contractual legal agreement?

OR - are you making up more bullshit?

LOL if you knew what you were talking about this should not be a surprise to you. It is well known and well documented. Prior to Obamacare insurance companies denied care for as long as possible in order to avoid paying for needed healthcare. Read and learn Michael.

http://www.justice.org/cps/rde/xbcr/justice/InsuranceTactics.pdf

The best way to ensure the products and services are valued, is through free-market competition. If you find the healthcare products and services are shit - that's because we in the "Land of the Free", good ole' USSA, do NOT HAVE free markets. A few poor un-free market products are puked up as an example of 'free market competition' and these goods and services are of poor quality, overpriced and undervalued.

What would you expect from Rent-Seeking?!

Well history has shown rather decisively that your so called “free market” solutions don’t work. We have been there done that, and it didn’t work. Your “free market” American healthcare system was expensive and increasingly less effective and very inefficient. And we have much better proven healthcare models. And isn't "rent seeking" what capitalism is all about? I thought you were a "free market" kind of guy.

 

[Michael]

Australia's Universal Health Care system has operated successfully now for nearly 40 years.......
If any right wing government [as we now have] did anything to change it, they would have a revolt on their hands.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by 'successfully'. Maybe we have a difference of opinion of what is and is not successful health coverage?

With regards to a patient entering an Australian hospital; which of the following rates would you consider to be an unacceptable rate? That is a patient has entered a public hospital and has either died or been harmed or received no benefit at all.

1 in 5
1 in 20
1 in 100
1 in 2000
1 in 5000
1 in 1 million


As an example, in the final category only 1 in 1 million patients would enter the public hospital and either die, be harmed BY the treatment, or receive no benefit. IOWs, the patent would have been safer to have remained at home. Of course, 1 in a million is a ridiculously low number. I just added it there to use as an example.

So? I'm curious - where would YOU put the line in terms of unacceptable incompetency rates in Australian Public Hospitals?

 

[Michael]

One of the things you don’t understand Michael is that industries can be regulated without restricting competition. Car production is regulated, but that doesn’t mean the auto industry isn’t a competitive market. It is a very competitive market.

Red Herring.
The question wasn't 'restricting competition' it was 'free markets'.

LOL if you knew what you were talking about this should not be a surprise to you. It is well known and well documented. Prior to Obamacare insurance companies denied care for as long as possible in order to avoid paying for needed healthcare. Read and learn Michael.

Red Herring (again)

The question wasn't IF healthcare insurance company do not pay out on a contract. I specifically asked for an example of an insurance company being able LEGALLY REFUSE to pay out on a contractual agreement. Of course, you neglect to mention that all these millions of federal healthcare 'regulations' are not 'working'. Or that ObamaCare was written BY the insurance companies - I'm sure the LAST thing they are doing is making it easier for you to sue them. LASTLY, my position is the best solution is free-market competition. And, it is.

As has been pointed out to you numerous times over the course of years, access to affordable healthcare is not in any way similar to fascism. There are many models of more efficient and more effective healthcare that what we have had in The United States.

Red Herring (specifically Argumentum ad Consequentiam)

Well history has shown rather decisively that your so called “free market” solutions don’t work.

Not only is that incorrect, but it's also fallacious: Argumentum ad Antiquitatem

We have been there done that, and it didn’t work. Your “free market” American healthcare system was expensive and increasingly less effective and very inefficient. And we have much better proven healthcare models. And isn't "rent seeking" what capitalism is all about? I thought you were a "free market" kind of guy.

Healthcare is one of the most regulated markets in the USSA. It is NOT a free-market. As for rent-seeking, not, this is 'not what capitalism is all about'. I suggest you look up what rent-seeking IS because it's juxtapose to 'free markets'.


Now, if I actually list ALL of the fallacious arguments you made (sometimes per sentence) - I'd be here another 30 minutes. AND as for YOU Grumpy (as I'm sure you're still readying this even through you said you were done) listing your illogical reasoning by fallacious argument..... that'd take me all day. But, I will note this much: it's not "My Philosophy" - this would be like saying "Your Math" or "Your Science". There is ONLY 'math' and 'Science' and 'philosophy'. Either you are getting closer to the truth - or you are not.

 

[paddoboy]

I suppose that depends on what you mean by 'successfully'. Maybe we have a difference of opinion of what is and is not successful health coverage?

With regards to a patient entering an Australian hospital; which of the following rates would you consider to be an unacceptable rate? That is a patient has entered a public hospital and has either died or been harmed or received no benefit at all.

1 in 5
1 in 20
1 in 100
1 in 2000
1 in 5000
1 in 1 million


As an example, in the final category only 1 in 1 million patients would enter the public hospital and either die, be harmed BY the treatment, or receive no benefit. IOWs, the patent would have been safer to have remained at home. Of course, 1 in a million is a ridiculously low number. I just added it there to use as an example.

So? I'm curious - where would YOU put the line in terms of unacceptable incompetency rates in Australian Public Hospitals?

I'm not interested in your biased right wing diatribe.
All Australians, entering Hospital for needed surgery are covered.
All Australians visiting the Doctor of their choice for any illnesses are also covered.
Medicare covers all.

 

[Michael]

I'm not interested in your biased right wing diatribe.
All Australians, entering Hospital for needed surgery are covered.
All Australians visiting the Doctor of their choice for any illnesses are also covered.
Medicare covers all.

Red Herring

I didn't ask about medicare, I asked about the rates of Australian entering Australian Public Hospitals that either die or are harmed or receive no benefit at all. It really doesn't matter if you have medicare that "covers all" IF you would have been better off staying at home and hoping for the best.


Look, that's OK. Time for you to think *magic* thoughts where the *magical* Australian "Government" (that's cutting public servants as we speak) *magically* turns $35,000 worth of payments by your typical obese Aussie and *magically waves it's magic wand and POOF* turns that $35,000 into $350,000 worth of cardiovascular care without having to sell off most of the country to Asia as well as sell generations worth of bonds (to Asian as well) that will have to be paid back by your grandkids with interest. Oh well, your grandkids can rent with their mates - they didn't want to start a family or own a business anyway.

I'd suggest you go sit down at the children's table and let other's do the thinking for you.
Oh, and I'd advise you to try and get private healthcare insurance. That one was for free.