New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
Tiassa, you're starting to sound like Baghdad Bob:
It is an indisputable fact that the Obamacare rollout is going horribly. Deny it all you want, you only make yourself look foolish. Even Bill Clinton is criticizing it:
“Even if it takes a change to the law, the president should honor the commitment the federal government made to those people and let them keep what they got,”
And if you think everything will be fine when they finally get the website working, well, look at this story from Al Jazeera America. Colorada has a functioning insurance exchange constructed by the state. Al Jazeera America interviewed one of Colorado’s exchange navigators who told them that she had yet to sign up a single person. The rates were too high, even with the subsidies.
[video=youtube;6p62BtJwYdE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p62BtJwYdE[/video]
As Ezra Klein points out, Obamacare is in serious trouble:
As Ezra points out, doing what President Clinton suggests might well put the insurance market on the exchanges into a death spiral caused by adverse selection as those who (like me) are happy with their current insurance stay on that plan and only the sick and old apply on the exchanges. Rates on the exchanges would soar, causing even more adverse selection until the entire thing collapsed.
On the other hand, not doing anything may prove politically very difficult.
Madwayne is thrilled that Obamacare isn't working yet, especially in Colorado where, guess what, there were serious problems with the GOP providing enough funding for the exchange to work.
Fuck Bill Clinton, Obama should have stuck to the plan, he has nothing to lose.
Fuck Bill Clinton, Obama should have stuck to the plan, he has nothing to lose.
The problem with the old system was that old people paid far more than younger people.
Sick people paid far more than healthy people.
So the highest burden fell on those who were old and sick, and often unable to afford it.
The simplest answer was to pay for the whole system through taxation,
but the people who have grown rich on the old system wouldn't allow it.
Taxation would also make it even clearer that it is a socialist policy. Anathema.
I can't figure out what was in Obama's head when he said people could keep their old plans.
The general idea is that people pay more in their healthy younger years, so that later in life they benefit from a fairer system.
How could they keep their old plans?
Sick people paid far more than healthy people.
So the highest burden fell on those who were old and sick, and often unable to afford it.
The simplest answer was to pay for the whole system through taxation,
but the people who have grown rich on the old system wouldn't allow it.
Taxation would also make it even clearer that it is a socialist policy. Anathema.
I can't figure out what was in Obama's head when he said people could keep their old plans.
The general idea is that people pay more in their healthy younger years, so that later in life they benefit from a fairer system.
How could they keep their old plans?
Getting re-elected.
He sold Obamacare on the promise that it would mean lower insurance rates for everyone, coverage for the uninsured, and no change whatsoever for those who were happy with their current plans. Despite that pie in the sky sales pitch, Obamacare has never been popular and Obama was barely re-elected.
Now imagine what would have happened if he'd been honest. If he had told the American people that millions of them would be forced off of the insurance plans they liked and forced to purchase more expensive plans. Would he have been re-elected?
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Can Americans be so naive?
Wouldn't it have been better to explain how the system worked?
It is simple enough.
If you have good universal basic standards of health, housing, transport and education, everyone benefits.
That, to me, is the province of Government.
Wouldn't it have been better to explain how the system worked?
It is simple enough.
If you have good universal basic standards of health, housing, transport and education, everyone benefits.
That, to me, is the province of Government.
Have you seen this video? Obama makes multiple very unequivocal statements to the effect that if you liked your insurance you can keep it, period, no matter what:
[video=youtube;qpa-5JdCnmo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpa-5JdCnmo[/video]
So, yes, a large segment of the American public is so naive as to believe the president was not lying to their faces over and over again.
The fact is those people who's plans were cancelled were putting an unfair burden on the rest of us. You can accept your credit for finally catching Obama at a legitimate goof. But the issues at heart are larger than your crass political point counting.
Yes, I've seen it.
If you like your insurance you can keep it.
Plain as day.
Same as the Guantanamo camp was going to close.
If you like your insurance you can keep it.
Plain as day.
Same as the Guantanamo camp was going to close.
I guess he figured reasonable people wouldn't like paying for a crappy plan. I guess never underestimate the American desire to get taken advantage of.
He doesn't have that power, congress does.
So when he said:
"As President, I will close Guantanamo, reject the Military Commissions Act and adhere to the Geneva Conventions. Our Constitution and our Uniform Code of Military Justice provide a framework for dealing with the terrorists. "-
he wasn't being entirely factual, was he?
See more at: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/07/obama-guantanamo.html#sthash.8etAbOyA.dpuf
Re Jimmy Carter
As time has passed, his standing has improved markedly on the Historical Ranking Charts.
He is not far away from JFK.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents
I wonder will the same happen to George W?
"As President, I will close Guantanamo, reject the Military Commissions Act and adhere to the Geneva Conventions. Our Constitution and our Uniform Code of Military Justice provide a framework for dealing with the terrorists. "-
he wasn't being entirely factual, was he?
See more at: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/07/obama-guantanamo.html#sthash.8etAbOyA.dpuf
Re Jimmy Carter
As time has passed, his standing has improved markedly on the Historical Ranking Charts.
He is not far away from JFK.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents
I wonder will the same happen to George W?
Obama cancelled no one's plan, the reason they could not keep their grandfathered plan was because the INSURANCE COMPANIES canceled those plans, as they have done for years on the individual market to the tune of 30% or more per year. These policies had huge deductibles and could be dropped if you ever had to use them. Imagine being hit while riding a bike and finding out that in addition to not paying for a hospital stay, they don't pay the first 10,000 dollars of anything else either, all for over 300 dollars a month. They would not cover pre-existing conditions(like being a female of child bearing age)and if you got sick one year, you couldn't get coverage the next for stacks of gold. When Obama said you could keep those policies, it was referring only to the fact that they had been grandfathered. Obama had no way to guarantee that the insurance company would continue to offer it. Context means nothing to Teabaggers and the Republicans in Congress, however. And the corporate media...
All you have to do to put this in proper perspective is to look at what was going on before Obamacare. The Republicans like to claim the free market would do a better job, but they actually could not have done a worse one. Those who got their insurance through their employers won't see much difference, if the ACA is successful their premiums will probably not change much at all. But their insurance companies can no longer cancel their insurance if they use it, can't limit yearly charges, can't limit their lifetime charges, must spend 80 cents of every dollar on actually paying the people who actually provide our health care instead of on the obscene profits and executive pay packages they did have(Single payer would automatically be 20% cheaper, you know), their college age kids can stay on their policy so that they won't have that expense in addition to being crushed by tuition debt, their policies must meet standards, no more outlandish deductibles and selective coverage and, for the first time in history, we will be covering everyone so we won't have to pay their Emergency Room bills, it will actually save billions over the next decade.
On the other side we have 30 some Republican governors of the poorest, least covered states refusing to set up exchanges or expand Medicare, leaving MILLIONS with no healthcare at all. Why? To appease the Right Wing Loonies? Or to satisfy their masters? Because they're just A_holes? For political gain? Because this conservative Heritage Foundation plan(also Romneycare)was put forward by a black man that beat them like a bass drum(twice)? Racism(or, as I like to call it "Obama Derangement Syndrome)?
Yes.
Grumpy
All you have to do to put this in proper perspective is to look at what was going on before Obamacare. The Republicans like to claim the free market would do a better job, but they actually could not have done a worse one. Those who got their insurance through their employers won't see much difference, if the ACA is successful their premiums will probably not change much at all. But their insurance companies can no longer cancel their insurance if they use it, can't limit yearly charges, can't limit their lifetime charges, must spend 80 cents of every dollar on actually paying the people who actually provide our health care instead of on the obscene profits and executive pay packages they did have(Single payer would automatically be 20% cheaper, you know), their college age kids can stay on their policy so that they won't have that expense in addition to being crushed by tuition debt, their policies must meet standards, no more outlandish deductibles and selective coverage and, for the first time in history, we will be covering everyone so we won't have to pay their Emergency Room bills, it will actually save billions over the next decade.
On the other side we have 30 some Republican governors of the poorest, least covered states refusing to set up exchanges or expand Medicare, leaving MILLIONS with no healthcare at all. Why? To appease the Right Wing Loonies? Or to satisfy their masters? Because they're just A_holes? For political gain? Because this conservative Heritage Foundation plan(also Romneycare)was put forward by a black man that beat them like a bass drum(twice)? Racism(or, as I like to call it "Obama Derangement Syndrome)?
Yes.
Grumpy
I think you are posting in the wrong thread.
I wouldn’t be getting all that excited if I were you or one of your fellow Republicans. I don’t think President Obama lied. Because I don’t believe President Obama knew or thought the statement was factually incorrect. For the overwhelming vast majority of Americans President Obama’s statement is factually correct. That is the unbridled truth. It is only untrue for the small sliver of people who obtained new substandard health policies after the passage of Obamacare. And President Obama through executive action today has extended the ability of health insurance companies to write those policies for another year. Now why would one want a substandard health insurance policy is beyond me. But health insurance companies have the right to write them for another year.
However, I doubt few health insurance companies will extend those policies because they have already factored in their pricing for next year and if they do, the premiums will be quite high. And when these people squawking about losing their substandard health policies find out what they will be getting from the exchanges, they won’t look back and this will go down in history as just another in a long series of attempts by Republicans to undermine Obamacare.
Captain Kremmen
So, if I say "I am going down this road." And, as I proceed to do so, you hit me in the face with a shovel, was my original statement non-factual, or did something get in the way(Obama Derangement Syndrome), Congressional Republicans blocked every attempt he made, of the almost nonexistent bills our house has passed since 2009, one forbade the trying of terrorists in the US. They have tied the House into knots and are the most Do Nothing Congress in History, largely because of ODS.
Carter was a good man who should never have been President. His problem was his temperament and lack of a steel spine(a common fault in Democrats, unfortunately). He was overwhelmed by events instead of leading us through them. The Malaise started at the top.
Bush will be known for centuries as the President who did the most damage to the country and Cheney is Darth Vader. Both are in real danger of being arrested for war crimes overseas and last time I looked, outing an undercover CIA agent in time of war is treason, unless you're a Republican, I guess. If you want to see a perfect example of the depth the OBS goes, examine how many Embassies were attacked under Bush, and how many Congressional Investigations were done about those attacks. Then think "Benghazi", where you would think that Obama personally shot the Ambassador for the riot going on.
No, this concern by the Republicans is fake. The people losing this crappy insurance for better insurance at lower cost are being used in a political game. And while what the President said turns out not to be true for a couple of percent of Americans, the rest of us it was true for and everyone is better off than with what we had. Without the Governors refusing to set up exchanges in their states the rollout would have been better. But the Republicans goal seems to be to prevent their own people from getting medical care, there will be deaths caused by these political stunts. The Shutdown cost 32 billion, for a political stunt. The Congresses inaction since 2008 is estimated to have cost 2 million jobs and 4 Trillion in lost earnings, yet our infrastructure still crumbles. Even with all that the Dow just set new records 4 times last week alone, Obama is turning out to be the worst Socialist, ever.
Fortunately for Republicans, Obamacare covers ODS.
Grumpy
So, if I say "I am going down this road." And, as I proceed to do so, you hit me in the face with a shovel, was my original statement non-factual, or did something get in the way(Obama Derangement Syndrome), Congressional Republicans blocked every attempt he made, of the almost nonexistent bills our house has passed since 2009, one forbade the trying of terrorists in the US. They have tied the House into knots and are the most Do Nothing Congress in History, largely because of ODS.
Carter was a good man who should never have been President. His problem was his temperament and lack of a steel spine(a common fault in Democrats, unfortunately). He was overwhelmed by events instead of leading us through them. The Malaise started at the top.
Bush will be known for centuries as the President who did the most damage to the country and Cheney is Darth Vader. Both are in real danger of being arrested for war crimes overseas and last time I looked, outing an undercover CIA agent in time of war is treason, unless you're a Republican, I guess. If you want to see a perfect example of the depth the OBS goes, examine how many Embassies were attacked under Bush, and how many Congressional Investigations were done about those attacks. Then think "Benghazi", where you would think that Obama personally shot the Ambassador for the riot going on.
No, this concern by the Republicans is fake. The people losing this crappy insurance for better insurance at lower cost are being used in a political game. And while what the President said turns out not to be true for a couple of percent of Americans, the rest of us it was true for and everyone is better off than with what we had. Without the Governors refusing to set up exchanges in their states the rollout would have been better. But the Republicans goal seems to be to prevent their own people from getting medical care, there will be deaths caused by these political stunts. The Shutdown cost 32 billion, for a political stunt. The Congresses inaction since 2008 is estimated to have cost 2 million jobs and 4 Trillion in lost earnings, yet our infrastructure still crumbles. Even with all that the Dow just set new records 4 times last week alone, Obama is turning out to be the worst Socialist, ever.
Fortunately for Republicans, Obamacare covers ODS.
Grumpy
Except this isn't what's going to eventuate. It will be the poor subsidizing the rich. It will be the poor dying in public hospitals while the rich fly overseas or pay for private.
We all agree - no one wants to see people sick and not get treatment.
I'm certainly of the mind that ALL children being innocent by nature can be provided healthcare - no one wants to see innocent children go without health-coverage (and they don't).
No one wants to see illiterate children - and so we paid and built public schools. Now many poor children graduate with a literacy rate LOWER than in 1910!
No one wants to see homeless - and so we paid for a built public housing. Now many poor children who can not read live in crack filled gang-run housing slum projects worse than in 1910! Shit, worse than in 1510.
and etc...
The fact is Healthcare (to be correct this should be called disease care) is the second most regulated industry after finance (and we all know what a f*cking mess that is). The AMA pays the second most money in political donation to KEEP THE PRICE HIGH (just after finance). If we truly want cheap high-quality healthcare, real healthcare, then we need a free market. What we don't need is more government. We need LESS government. We need more competition. It should be clear there's something wrong when Americans can pay for an all expense trip to South Korea and have elective surgery cheaper than having it done in their own city. Healthcare has become a money making racket. It may end up being cheap airfair that is the ONLY thing that can bring down prices in healthcare as people just fly somewhere else.
I'm sure everyone patted themselves on the back when the paint was fresh on the walls at the local public school and local public housing project, no one would have imaged the shit-holes they were laying the ground work for (or maybe they did and didn't care). Well, this is ObamaCare today, with it's fresh paint. And it isn't looking nice. It won't look like that in 30 years. In 30 years, I promise you, the last place you're going to want to healthcare is at a Government hospital. This is going to be a mess.
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One of us is living in La La Land. Let's see, we have Government Schools graduating students who can't read and write, Government losing one War in S. Asia and now two more in the ME - while lying about the reasons for the wars the entire time, Government Housing Slum Crack-Whore Projects complete with lawless rampant gang-violence, Government Roads that injure a couple million people a year, Government run generational welfare dependency, Government's massive waste of energy (largest energy consumer on the planet) and creation of pollution (largest polluter on the planet) and think this same incompetent collection of sociopathic demagogues who'd stab their own mothers in the heart to get reelected - are going to magically fix a problem THEY themselves created! Ha!!! Give me a f*cking break. Yeah, put the Wolves in charge of the hen-house and when it all goes to hell - give them the keys to barn as well!LOL, still living in la la land I see.
You Joe, live in La La Land.
But, then again, the Federal Reserve is pilling on nearly $100 billion a month in debt 6 years AFTER bailing out the banking criminals who pay for their political lackey's elections and you call that a success too. Yes, a wonderful success. Well, that doesn't surprise me, you live in La La Land. Like a princess high up in a magical palace tower.
This billion dollar Chicago-style CRONY f*cked up ObamaCare website is a symptom of an incompetent disease riddled Government run amok and a clear sign of things to come for healthcare in the USA.
Some people will pay far more, and others far less than they did before Obamacare.
The rough idea is to spread the cost so that people pay much the same to cover necessary healthcare whether they are young or old, healthy or sick.
Most people, in most countries, think that is fair, and have no problem with it.
They are amazed at the American reaction to a basic public health service.
Obama has done a terrible job of explaining it.
How can you keep the same policy, when the cost is going to change?
A man in his prime will be paying three times as much for a no-frills policy than he did previously.
From Forbes:
To answer this question, analyses were conducted using premium rates derived from an American Action Forum study. The AAF study revealed that for a 30 year old single nonsmoking male, average national monthly insurance premiums for the lowest-cost plan in 2014 were set to increase to $187.08 from $62.00 in 2013.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...ange-versus-federal-exchange-under-obamacare/
Captain Kremmen
It's not the American people causing these problems, it's the Koch/Insurance companies owned Republican party spreading lies and doing nothing but voting 42 times to repeal the ACA. It's a political power struggle. They have been doing everything they can to nullify the election of Obama since 2009, some are maddened they got beat so badly(twice)by a black man. The shutdown was a premature coup attempt by the John Birch society(their father was a founder and they have never had the experience of earning a living), Ted Cruz was smoking in the powder room and set it off before the Kochs had all the charges set. It cost this country 32 billion dollars. Since 2009, when Obama took office, Republican tactics and lack of action has cost this country about 2 million jobs and 4 trillion dollars in lost wages and productivity. And yet they have done nothing about our bridges falling(good jobs there) The Tea Party was wholly Astroturfed by Koch money and they have spent hundreds of millions to buy elections country wide. They are behind ALEC and the Republicans are now a wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries. If Romney had won we would already be a lot like pre-war Germany, the Industrialists would live pretty well for a while, but the rest of the country starved, to the point that Communism started to look good. The Class War would be over, the rich won(partly by denying there was such a war going on, usually through one of their mouth pieces in Congress). Denying healthcare for the poor, cutting food support, fighting minimum wage, ignoring the immigration bill, etc. is part of that war, too. Every other advanced country on Earth solved this decades ago(England in 1948), they have lower costs and universal coverage, if you are a citizen you are covered for any necessary care. And they pay HALF what we do. But those greedy insurance companies and the obscene profits they were making kicking sick people to the curb, condemning some to avoidable death or short lifetimes and no coverage at all for millions, they are pouring money into the Republican coffers and the Republicans are flirting with the suicide of their party to deliver.
Grumpy
It's not the American people causing these problems, it's the Koch/Insurance companies owned Republican party spreading lies and doing nothing but voting 42 times to repeal the ACA. It's a political power struggle. They have been doing everything they can to nullify the election of Obama since 2009, some are maddened they got beat so badly(twice)by a black man. The shutdown was a premature coup attempt by the John Birch society(their father was a founder and they have never had the experience of earning a living), Ted Cruz was smoking in the powder room and set it off before the Kochs had all the charges set. It cost this country 32 billion dollars. Since 2009, when Obama took office, Republican tactics and lack of action has cost this country about 2 million jobs and 4 trillion dollars in lost wages and productivity. And yet they have done nothing about our bridges falling(good jobs there) The Tea Party was wholly Astroturfed by Koch money and they have spent hundreds of millions to buy elections country wide. They are behind ALEC and the Republicans are now a wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries. If Romney had won we would already be a lot like pre-war Germany, the Industrialists would live pretty well for a while, but the rest of the country starved, to the point that Communism started to look good. The Class War would be over, the rich won(partly by denying there was such a war going on, usually through one of their mouth pieces in Congress). Denying healthcare for the poor, cutting food support, fighting minimum wage, ignoring the immigration bill, etc. is part of that war, too. Every other advanced country on Earth solved this decades ago(England in 1948), they have lower costs and universal coverage, if you are a citizen you are covered for any necessary care. And they pay HALF what we do. But those greedy insurance companies and the obscene profits they were making kicking sick people to the curb, condemning some to avoidable death or short lifetimes and no coverage at all for millions, they are pouring money into the Republican coffers and the Republicans are flirting with the suicide of their party to deliver.
Grumpy