New Evidence of Artificiality,Cydonia

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally posted by Electric_Ashalar
As for Stating some sort of hypothesis,I'm getting at This:

I believe Cydonia is the Ancient,destroyed remains of an intelligent civilisation(if that wasn't obvious in the title of thread).
Highly Eroded,Blasted by meteoric assualt ,and Buried over Eons of Sand,dust,and ice/snow.
Click to expand...


That's what I assumed, but I just wanted to be sure. If I were to take your side in this, there are some additions I would make to the methods of testing your hypotheses. I use the plural, because in order to support the main hypothesis, some sub-hypotheses must hold true:

1) The concept of axes and geometric regularities are repeatable phenomena within various known civilizations.

2) The concept of axes and geometric regularities are rare in other natural environments similar in scale and representation.

3) An artificial construct can survive weathering, errosion, and millions of years of sedimentary deposition. This is a hypothesis which presents some questions:

a) What is the actual scale in meters of the area you are using in the hypothesis? Height of "structures?"
b) What data exists as the mineralogical composition of the area?
c) What are the hypothesized ages of tectonic/geologic activity on Mars? In other words, how long ago was Mars' geology active with volcanoes, oceans, etc. (there are, undboubtedly, some reasonable ideas made by planetary scientists).

4) Other images of the area taken at different times with, perhaps, different methods support the initial image with the axes and geometric regularities.

5) Probability that the "square" is either naturally occurring as a feature or an artifact of the thermal method of imaging is lower than the probability that it is artificial.

Originally posted by Electric_Ashalar
I believe That Using The NEWLY discovered Square in Southern Cydonia...It can be Used as a "Control" to Seek out Other Instances of Intelligent Design that will be "HIGHLY" Angular and oriented on 1 but probably MORE than one Axis Shared by the Square.
Click to expand...

First, you would have to establish that the probability of it being artificial is highly likely, as I mentioned in hypothesis # 5 above. Then you would have to establish that angles and axes are typically exclusive to civilizations in pattern, as in #1 and #2.

Originally posted by Electric_Ashalar
I -only- ENDORSE @ Present- FOUR -enigmas in Cydonia As POSITIVELY Artificial:in "MY" Opinion The Face,Fort,D&M and Square Complex...
Click to expand...

So, are you saying that if four "enigmas" can be located in testable terrain in a similar pattern, then the hypothesis can be invalidated?

Originally posted by Electric_Ashalar
And Trust me
NASA has an Employee that Takes The Past Civilisation seriously
who also Verifies JPL's RELUCTANCE to investigate.
Click to expand...

Of that I've no doubt.
 
No SW.
I'm Saying That ,At This Time,I Am Confident of ---These 4 Anomalies Only--- but do Freely Speculate on Many Others.
And Can ---USE--- The Cydo-Axis to Help Identify Other Possible Constructions.

I'm Still absorbing your subhypothesis but wanted to clear that up right away so you were clear what I meant.
As Stated On Anomalies net on the First Page of My Thread...
Help Me Make Some Sense of This.

This is a work in Progress...You are able To watch my Whole Progression of thought on this From The Moment I Realized the Square to the present typing of the period at the end of this sentence.
 
Originally posted by Electric_Ashalar
As For the Face Being a Trick of Light and Shadow...That Does Not Hold up in Light of Recent Studies.(thank God No-one Says faces in the Clouds...That's OLD and Boring)
Click to expand...


Actually it holds up very well and is very convincing as to being just that... an illusion. You don't want to hear it repeated, but "finding faces" in other objects is nothing new for humans. We are pattern seeking, catagorizing by nature and facial recognition is the most common method of pattern recognition that we use as a species.

Even by looking past the lines drawn on this photo (eyeballs and teeth... come on, man... nothing remotely resembles those details) it's hard to make out a "face" that could be considered anything more than coincidental.

What "ancient civilization" left this monolith for us to remember here on Earth?
phallusrock.jpg


Coincidences happen. I would say that this rock more resembles a penis than that formation resembles a face :cool:

Why not use this image as an example of the "face on Mars?"
mgs_cydonia3.jpg


Above you see an example of what is probably a Shield Volcano. The collapsed portion is likely due to the magma chamber collapsing from the weight of the "roof" after the magma was emptied or receded.

Do I know that for sure? No. But I have an education in geology (Earth sciences is my minor) that allows me to make a hypothesis that has more probability than an ancient civilization expending considerable effort, energy and resources to leave a monument to future observers of the planet to argue over.

Cover those other sub-hypotheses with testable results and I'll lean more toward your main hypothesis. I, too, want to believe that an ancient civilization resided on Mars... that will give promise that we are not alone in the universe... but I also recognize that it is so unlikely that it will have to be confined to science fiction. For now, anyway.
 
Here's a couple of images to consider. I cropped both from the areas indicated in this image in pink. The white boxed area is the image source as listed on each of the other two.

The images were aquired by MGS during orbit 220 on 4-5-98.

cydonia_coverage.jpg


MarsFace 4-5-98.jpg


MarsCaldera 4-5-98.jpg


I think both are more representative of known volcanic configurations than civilization.

Have you started considering the scale of these objects yet? This is certainly a factor to include. Because as advanced as our culture is, we are hesitant to erect structures that require enormous expenditures of capital and resources when multiple, smaller structures would suffice. The kind of scale required for a building to be discernable from space is beyond the capital of our current civilizations. Although the pyramids can be seen from orbit, it is doubtful that they will survive millions of years based upon their current rate of decay.

It has been estimated that water flowed on Mars millions of years ago if not billions. What kind of civilization can build a structure that lasts millions of years and is the size of a mountain? Moreover, what kind of civilization can do this over and over again? The capital, resources and technology of such a civilization would have been more significant than anything we can imagine.

It's possible. It's just not probable.
 
Yes I have Cosidered The Size of these Immense Structures and Find No insurmountable Problem With their Scale at The moment.
(I hope I can Get this thought process Coherent enough for you)

With Less Gravity on Mars(I can't offhand recall how much less at the moment) less expenditure of effort would be required.
The lesser Gravity on Mars, I believe Would By default,Not Make the Rocks as dense or heavy to Manipulate By the inhabitants,The inhabitants Themselves could be Larger because of Said Gravity,

The execution of construction can Take Many Forms,Like The Pyramids as Block Construction or Like Machu Pichu wich we'll agree is a Mountain can be Modified from it's natural State.

Assuming Capital is or Must be Used ,We can equally Assume This could be Slavery,Volunteerism,Religious Belief and or Fanaticism as well as a Sense of Duty to Your People ,etc.But likely a combination of above.
This is not inconsistant with Either Worshipping /Respecting/Immortalizing a Deity,Pharoah,or Like mount Rushmore Political Figures.

As A geological Student It would Be Interesting To Tell You I have Spoken to Noel Gorelick,(also Known as "BAMF") From Themis ASU/Themis in IRC Chat on a Few Occasions And Was Surprised To Learn That Besides His Duties There He Also Has A Hobby,
His Hobby is Making "ARTIFICIAL" Rocks for his Rock Garden.
Wich Places him in an Unique Position as One Who Makes "Natural looking Rocks" out of Various materials and Working With Spacecraft...I Find That oddly Connected as I am SEARCHING for Artificial Rock Using His Camera...Lol!
 
Today Begins The 6th Mars Conference
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/sixthmars2003/
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/sixthmars2003/sixthmars2003.authorindex.html#C

Carlotto M. J. 3208 Enigmatic Surface Features Posters, Thu, a.m., Dabney Garden

==================================================
Dr.Carlotto's ABSTRACT (in .pdf)

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/sixthmars2003/pdf/sess28.pdf
==================================================
Also here is Dr.Carlotto's Independant conclusions of The Square

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/cydoniacontroversy/updates/secondTHEMIS/secondTHEMIS.shtml

from NEW FRONTIERS in SCIENCE
http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/
 
SW
Man !!! yer Gonna Make Me Sing for My Supper before I Get your interest ,Aren't You,Lmao!
QUOTE:
"If I were to take your side in this, there are some additions I would make to the methods of testing your hypotheses. I use the plural, because in order to support the main hypothesis, some sub-hypotheses must hold true:"

Please be Patient as I will Attempt to Address Your Sub-Criteria One at a Time Sir(and Members of This Board)...All The While Please Do Continue To Question me Further ...I Luv Debate


1) The concept of axes and geometric regularities are repeatable phenomena within various known civilizations.
yes
GIZA3.jpg


Double Yes
knibbs.gif

FROM:
http://www.library.cornell.edu/Reps/DOCS/knibbs.htm

Triple Yes
washcyd.gif

FROM:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/2900/dcmars.html

Whew!!!
Beer Time.
 
Subcriteria of Skinwalker
#2) "The concept of axes and geometric regularities are rare in other natural environments similar in scale and representation."

This is an EXCELLENT question ,Sir
and The Hunt is On as we Speak for this subject.
So Far I have Not Encountered anything that Fit's your Category though it may exist...The Members Here are MORE than Welcome to Hunt Some Down

Anything associated with this is limited By NASA or it's colleagues to Zilch(besides Statements like"reminicsent of Camelback Mountain(in regards to the Face...as it seems they will not Broach the subject beyond that @ Present)that even matters more than my opinion or yours
but Here I will Include at the Least a Sceptics point of View on Sheild Volcanoes with Percieved geometry for Balance in this Thread.His Screename is "KY" and He is a Formidable Intellect as well as a More Than Competant Image Analyst

But be Warned...You viewed geology as a Penis earlier...LOL!
You Can bet yer Life This Looks Like it's Female Counterpart.
Touche'

dmanim.gif


I recall earliear You think the Face may be a Collapsed shield Volcanoe But that is Doubtful when The D&M resembles that category more.

As for the Face I will include a terrestrial Analogy from a Side View and will include an Ariel view of the Same Artificial MOUND later when I can Find the Damn Image and you can compare this one to that Crappy Image Malin gave us that You Posted Earlier
(also at a side View...BUT the ---Ariel View--- of This EARTHWORK in IRAN absolutely ROCKS!!!)
iranside.gif

and
MarsFace%204-5-98.jpg
 
Skinwalker?
Sir?
Are You Still Here?
I'm Not going to let you Shrink away from this :)

2CONFIRM.jpg

I will address your earlier posits fothwith...I only ask a reciprocation,Please.
 
Skinwalker:

To carry on in a non-linear answer session:

3) An artificial construct can survive weathering,
errosion, and millions of years of sedimentary deposition.
This is a hypothesis which presents some questions:
3)
The great pyramid of Gizah was "Robbed" of it's polished limestone casing to make the streets of Cairo and the core blocks will probably survive at least a million years regardless

a) What is the actual scale in meters of the area
you are using in the hypothesis? Height of "structures?"
b) What data exists as the mineralogical composition of the area?
c) What are the hypothesized ages of tectonic/geologic activity on Mars?
In other words, how long ago was Mars' geology active with volcanoes, oceans, etc.
(there are, undboubtedly, some reasonable ideas made by planetary scientists).

Skinwalker: as a Student with a "Minor" in Geology/earth Sciences
This is a Question "YOU" could answer Circles around me
and is best left for you to answer/inquire.
To post the entire known data at this time is obviously beyond the Scope of this thread...
but any insight you provide is welcome.

That Subquestion(# a,b,c) at present is a distraction and the data is not all "in" Yet.
But What I CAN answer:
...I will:
3a)
In regards to the Square complex/"Cydo-axis"
sqaure.gif



3a) What is the actual scale in meters of the area you are using in the hypothesis? Height of "structures?"

3a)Approx 10 kilometers to a side/the 4 sides each being 10 km.

3b) What data exists as the mineralogical composition of the area?

3b)That is a question Nasa is still debating...links provided on request but get off yer ass and help yerself(LOL!!!)
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-water-science-03k.html
http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/photos/mars.shtml

3c) What are the hypothesized ages of tectonic/geologic activity on Mars? In other words,
how long ago was Mars' geology active with volcanoes, oceans, etc. (there are, undboubtedly, some reasonable ideas made by planetary scientists).

3c) refer to above ,No offence.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/events/lectures/apr03.html
6th MARS CONFERENCE July 20-25th/'03
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/sixthmars2003/
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/si...horindex.html#C


Now *if* I did defer to Your Question I can State This:
In Freemasonry They Have a Stone.
It is called an Ashlar.
There are TWO versions of an ASHLAR
a "rough" ashlar
and a perfected ashlar.
essentially they are Identical in Composition...except the Rough version is a hewn rock or stone...
the other is a Cut/dressed /polished one.

Any Sensor would not be able to pick one out from the other..."UNLESS"

Unless: it was Albedo or reflectance as a rough rock would diffuse the light and a finished rock would reflect .

I will now carry on and Analyse your HI-RES image of the"City-Square"
in the coming day or so.
*******************
Beercules...I'm grasping ...
for the "BRASS RING" buddy :)
and any mention of Straws will only be in the context of...

Broke the camel-back mountains back.LMAO!
(wich nasa affiliates say"REMINDS" them of THE Face on Mars)
CIRCLE1.jpg
 
4) Other images of the area taken at different times with, perhaps, different methods support the initial image with the axes and geometric regularities.
4) GAWD!!! where have YOU been???(oh yeah, you Made your mind up long ago)
READ THIS!!!
http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=25;t=004845

From Mariner 9 cydonia
(wich I discovered using the Cydo-axis) to Viking,to MGS/MOC and oddessy/Themis.

It's all Covered in The Thread linked to above.
Do I strike you as Lazy?
I check this stuff out. I recommend you do also Sir,
As you are at a Disadvantage.
Me and You are Gonna get along JUST FINE :)
 
5) Probability that the "square" is either naturally occurring as a feature or an artifact of the thermal method of imaging is lower than the probability that it is artificial.
5)
This is my Task.
To FIND OUT
Wanna get On Board and Help???.
Sceptics are a MUST!!!
ESPECIALLY with Formal GEOLOGICAL TRAINING.

...but we will leave you with Carlotto's analysis of the face for now
http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/Members/v01n01/a/NFS0101a_1.shtml

and a Look at what Mars is like NOW

http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/photos/mars.shtml

and May have once been...

mars%20oceanBrandenburg.jpg


I look forward to your response
 
Space is void, vast and empty (lovely use of an oxymoron)

Space has presently only been seen even remotely worth exploiting commercially through the use of Satellites and communications networks.

It's known throughout our history that certain tycoons that have money to spend, usually do on projects that seem a bit bizarre. So it's therefore probable that the overall "Cydonia Hype" has been created just to get more backing for "expeditions".

It would also explain the fact that no "Outright" claim has been drawn up by those that collect data, and have telescopes and satellites capable of disproving the gulibility of people.

How ever I will say that there is a likelihood that where there is life there is bound to be structures and Re-organisation of the environment, maybe even done because of some form of control just to make it known that intelligence exists.

This can be proven with:

http://www.stormloader.com/users/abrax7/hillfig.htm
Chalk carvings in England

http://www.discover.com/jan_03/archaeology.html
Very small picture of some Egyptian carvings

I haven't been able to track down the Mayan hummingbird I believe.
(Which might have been carved due to a drought, since the hummingbird for certain other races was suppose to be the avatar of the "sun". So potentially it could have been carved because there was a hot spell, and water was scare, and they were either trying to win back the favour of the sun, or give it a message that they've had enough of it.)

Personally I tend to think mar's a barren planet, which if it has even sustained any life it would be minor life forms, that didn't for some reason take to the planet as well as they should have, which would be the reason for the lack of lifesustainable atmosphere.

(Afterall ask yourself, if there was life, why are their no Plants? or grasses? Okay so we say that it's a different planet and therefore would have different species there would still be something that would mimic the place of grass within the ecosystems heirarchy.)
 
you know, the problem is, your looking it from an awful big distance, and you know, that and i can find a picture on mars and draw my ass and a middle finger , That and a thought balloon calling you an idiot
 
SkinWalker,

I find the whole lump of pseudoscience that has become so popular to be dangerous to our country if not mankind. It inhibits progress... people stop learning and start hoping.
Click to expand...


Im surprised to see that point of view, most of the people i know in the sciences ("legitimate") are there because they were initially tantalized by fiction. I'd argue that pseudoscience and science fiction pushes people to learn more not less. Hell, modern chemistry was born out of alchemy - the ultimate pseudoscience.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top