Well we could always go by the stated intentions of say like hamas who stated goals is to make it to costly for Israel to mantain they strangle hold of palestine. based on atrrition a long used tactic. while their targeting might not be moral not terrorism because they fear caused is incidental and not the primary reason for it.
Netanyahu aide: Israel using Collective Punishment on children of Gaza because parent
- Thread starter common_sense_seeker
- Start date
Well we could always go by the stated intentions of say like hamas who stated goals is to make it to costly for Israel to mantain they strangle hold of palestine. based on atrrition a long used tactic. while their targeting might not be moral not terrorism because they fear caused is incidental and not the primary reason for it.
If they were making things costly for Israel without getting Israelis or their own citizens killed then I would probably agree that they were not engaged in terrorism. That unfortuantely (for Gazans) isn't the case.
terrorism requires fear to be used that kinda of why the root is terror. I understand given your support of Irael that you wish the governmental definition to stand but the simple fact that the definition is purely political and must give way to a more etymological based definition
I second PJs comment. Good solid post Bells. It should be read and ingested in the spirit offered. One of deep human empathy. :m:Which is ironic really. We try to ram democracy down other people's throats but when they elect someone we don't like, we stop viewing them as human beings and consider collective punishment against their children to be acceptable.
Okay.. But what about granting rights to the rest of the Palestinians not living in Gaza?
Why punish the people for having no real choice because others have forced them into this position?
I see.
Let me tell you something spider, when an armed forces specifically targets small children over and over again, whether in conflict or not, then their parents are going to get pissy and want to kill those who are killing and harming their children. Now, the more Israel collectively punishes the Palestinians, the more terrorists they are going to breed.
They don't need to teach their children spider. Those children are born in occupation. They don't have enough food. They can't get a proper education. They can't even have toys that my children take for granted. They don't have a childhood. They are forced to live in refugee camps and ghettos and are constantly harrassed by their occupiers, who will at time take pot shots at them and kill them, or kidnap them. Israel is reaping what it has sown and it will continue to reap if it maintains the same practice it has maintained thus far.
I'd be pissed off. So you can understand the Palestinian's anger then? You know, since their children are not only shot walking to and from school, their schools are also often targetted by the IDF. Let me put it this way, if this were my kid, I'd take out as many of those who did it to her as I could and I'd do it with a smile on my face:
So how do they breed terrorists again? If Israel acted with a minute sense of humanity, Hamas would not exist. Israel could take the high ground, but has instead chosen to target children.
So it is more acceptable to kill other people's children because you are nostalgic about that real estate? You do realise that's what the Israeli Government is doing, don't you?
So Israel kills children for that real estate?
No. They have imposed a blockade on the populace, which is slowly killing them. So tell me, how many Palestinian children need to die so a settler can enjoy a sea view from his home?
Then you should move to Israel. I can assure you, it would be guarranteed there. Even if they have to shoot a little children to ensure it.
Definitions can be contorted to fit an agenda. I could argue that the IDF is a militia as well.
Or can be recognized as an elected government and negotiated with.
Sadly, yes there is. Your unfortunate state of denial won`t alter this.
And it is Israelis very existence which offends HAMAS. So its time to TALK yes?
As have and do many Jews who have a shred of humanity, and are opposed to oppressive and violent Israeli policies. Living in Israel does not alter realities. :m:
Whether that fear is intentional or a natural by-product isn't very important to me.
So by your definition every violent act is terrorism.
Every intentional violent act exclusively against civilians for religious / political goals.
that's not what your definition says though. your definition would make every violent act terrorism.
To ask the question is to know the answer.
If you see my definition and your statement as equal then there's not much I can do.
Bells
Staff member
How lucky for you and Israelis that you have bomb shelters. What a shame that the Palestinians do not have that same luxury. Think of how many children would have been saved when the IDF decided to use phosphorus bombs on them if they had the same luxury as Israelis have in the form of bomb shelters.
But hey, that would defeat the purpose of collective punishment, wouldn't it? I mean, kill their children in the hope they rise against Hamas. The irony is that you think you have a moral ground in supporting it.. Would be funny if it wasn't so god damn tragic.
Considering all the tunnels Palestinians have I'm sure the have "bomb shelters". Also bomb shelters would be death traps to white phosphorous, the fumes alone would kill.
The fact children are "harmed" by a blockade doesn't mean much, get back to me when Israel is murdering children by crushing their skulls, or raiding Palestinian schools and shooting up kids, or when the Israelis advocate pushing them "into the sea".
The fact children are "harmed" by a blockade doesn't mean much, get back to me when Israel is murdering children by crushing their skulls, or raiding Palestinian schools and shooting up kids, or when the Israelis advocate pushing them "into the sea".
Bells
Staff member
So that is only when we should be concerned?
Shooting them, killing them, denying them health care and an education, denying them their freedom to be children and kidnapping and beating them isn't quite enough?
Thank you for your honesty. I guess it explains why we remained silent during Rwanda and Sudan.. It wasn't as bad as the atrocities in WWII.. so we should just shrug it all away.
If they have bomb shelters, why are so many of them killed in their homes and going to and from school and even in their schools? But hey, if we think deliberately harming children is no big deal, then we've pretty much failed as a human race, regardless of what side you happen to support.
The use of that kind of weasel wording - "specifically targeted" - to avoid owning up to what kind of horrorshow Israel has created for itself to live in, is frankly sickening.spidergoat said:
Israel is murdering children, starving children, traumatizing children, as a matter of deliberate and intentional policy, deliberate and intentional action. Israel knows what it is doing, even if its apologists and deniers refuse to admit the nature these actions.
You whine about Hamas - things were no different with the PLO, or any other Palestinian government.
And you are not one of those raising a family under the Israeli guns, and behind the Israeli walls, and continually subjected to the Israeli threats and harassment for so many years now - sonic booms and military assault in the middle of the night, stuff that actually kills people, not a few stray rockets that seldom hit anything. No bomb shelters, and far more lethal ordnance coming in.spidergoat said:
Israel has become a terrorist government that needs to be controlled. Failing that, it needs to live without US support. Failing that, it needs to divert a large share of its military budget to establishing treatment centers for Palestinian children suffering from PTSD - which, looking down the road, may prove a better investment in self-defense than another upgrade to its nuclear arsenal.
It is Gazains that deny them health care and education, and that strap bombs to them, not Israel. Again in all war you could say that children are being punished by collective guilt, that does not make one side or the other wrong.
I don't think you know my position on Rwanda and Sudan, so I don't think you can make this statement.
Israel is not deliberately harming children, if Israel wanted to deliberately harm the children, they would have exterminated the Palestinians years ago, instead Palestinians have incredible number of children and have the fastest breeding rates in the world, nearly half of their population is below the age of 14, with an average life expectancy of 72 those kids aren't dying off.
well except bomb shelters are reinforced the palestinian smuggling tunnels probably aren't(they probably would if they could but they don't have access to the materials required to do so). if the structure is weak enough the shock wave from a bomb could collapse the tunnel if the bomb is placed right.
the problem with that argument is it presupposes that evil is going to be stupid about it. Nothing benefits evil more than that argument.
No it does not presume, it states as fact, assuming Israel is the "evil" you speak of it has been as a fact very asinine about it evil goals! Riding the land of Palestinians being the goals, having failed for 60+ years and only allowing their population to increase is clear sign with out a doubt that they have failed to achieve the latter evil objectives. If the goals are the most insidious of evil and thus a desire for peace via a 2 state solution, oppressing the Palestinians for decades on end is certainly not smart, as decades of evidence on how well that works is proof of.