My turn for genocide

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S.A.M. said:
This is a curious argument one often hears these days i.e. one cannot do anything about the settler enterprise of Israel because it is a "fact" that cannot be undone. No more than say, giving America/Canada/Australia or New Zealand back to its natives.

ie an ongoing occupation is compared to one where the demographics have been adjusted by various means in favour of the settlers, ignoring that the Palestinians [all 10 million of them] are still there.

By this logic, what right does anyone have to stop any future genocides? Why can't everyone get their turn at it?
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The population doesnt matter, whomeve rhas more strength tpically is the dominate power.
 
S.A.M. said:
No atheists in the army? Or are we now pretending to forget that the Zionist fatherland was settled by atheist Jews?
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Ah, the lies of the Islamic propagandist. Whether it's scientific miracles in the Quran or all science is based on the Quran or sliced bread was discovered by Muhammad or the whole fucking universe is killing Muslims for fun, it's all the same agenda.
 
S.A.M. said:
Is that your justification for genocide? Because I don't see how some Jews living on a land means all Jews have a right to move there just as I would not see how some Muslims living on the same land would give all one billion Muslims the right to live there. Mythology shouldn't trump history.
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Agreed. For example: there was no genocide.
 
S.A.M. said:
How much land did the 7% native Jewish Palestinians own?
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How much were they allowed to own? The locals seem to have had some interesting ideas on culling their minorities with riots and pogroms when they seemed too uppity. (Hey, maybe that's why the Jews there "liked" living in tiny ghettos! At least they were safe from their "equals".)
 
S.A.M. said:
So all the Jews from everywhere in the world have the same culture and religion as those from the mythical Israel of 2000 years ago?
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If the culture and religion of Judaism remained in one place, it would also not remain fixed but change somewhat over time like most religions. Israel was not mythical, it's existence is confirmed by historical records, unlike the existence of Jesus.
 
Also true.

This is the first time Sam has used diversity as an example of something bad. A simplification, true.
 
S.A.M. said:
You mean the ancestors of the Palestinians? No idea. Africa, maybe? Is it relevant?
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You made the claim, SAM, that the Jews did not originate in Israel. i.e. Judaism did not originate in Israel.

Now you're saying your comment was irrelevant. Why bother making it, then?
 
James R said:
You made the claim, SAM, that the Jews did not originate in Israel. i.e. Judaism did not originate in Israel.

Now you're saying your comment was irrelevant. Why bother making it, then?
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I did not realise that there was a relevance of the origin of Judaism to the origin of Jews today, anymore than I see a relevance of the origin of Islam to the origin of Muslims today. Is there any historical evidence for the origin of Judaism in Palestine?

Meanwhile, what does the origin of the ancestors of the Palestinian people have to do with the argument?

According to Israeli historian Shlomo Sand, there are no "Jewish people"

Israel's Declaration of Independence states that the Jewish people arose in the Land of Israel and was exiled from its homeland. Every Israeli schoolchild is taught that this happened during the period of Roman rule, in 70 CE. The nation remained loyal to its land, to which it began to return after two millennia of exile. Wrong, says the historian Shlomo Zand, in one of the most fascinating and challenging books published here in a long time. There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened - hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt and, most satisfactorily, the horrors of the conquest under Joshua. It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel, he asserts.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959229.html
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Once again, what does the origin of Judaism or Jewish people [which are mutually exclusive incidents] have to do with the argument?
 
There is no evidence of an exodus, but there is archeological evidence for Judaism originating in the region of modern Israel. A Jewish religion leads to a Jewish people.
 
The kinds of things you find when humans live in a place- pottery, houses, bones of what they ate.
 
It shows a shift in culture from polytheism to a more sophisticated society made up of monotheists. A population came from outside, mixing with the locals and borrowing one of their Gods to form a new culture, which became the Jews.
 
spidergoat said:
It shows a shift in culture from polytheism to a more sophisticated society made up of monotheists. A population came from outside, mixing with the locals and borrowing one of their Gods to form a new culture, which became the Jews.
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How do you know they didn't bring it with them from outside? Doesn't Jewish mythology say the first monotheist, Abraham was born in Ur?
 
Abraham was not a monotheist, if he even existed, and the first forms of Judaism were also not monotheist. The name of the Jewish God came from existing caananite (I think) culture. This knowledge came from an archeologist that I heard in an interview, although I cannot tell you the source at the moment.
 
spidergoat said:
Abraham was not a monotheist, if he even existed, and the first forms of Judaism were also not monotheist. The name of the Jewish God came from existing caananite (I think) culture. This knowledge came from an archeologist that I heard in an interview, although I cannot tell you the source at the moment.
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I'd be most interested to see a source that definitively says Abraham was not a monotheist.

And that the Jews adopted El as their God after coming to Canaan.

Could you tell me when Jews started referring to themselves as Jews?
 
Don't you mean Judeans? Or Hebrews?

The word Jew is an innovation and has never been used to refer to followers of Judaism except in the modern languages.
 
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