My turn for genocide

[S.A.M.]

Its not his fault. There is a lot of confusion about who the "first Jews" truly are.

For example,

The idea of a "common origin" fails standard testing of the hypothesis. Yet the "common origin" is the standard basis for analysis and discussion of all such tests. Why is that so?



e.g. see this "explanation" of why Jews in most regions resemble the non-Jews of that region

Source http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Xt7f6WBEP0EC&dq=Kurds+Jews+genes&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Its like having a conclusion before you even have any results

 

[James R]

SAM:

The "native Jews" was brought up by spidergoat. I challenged his assertion as to their "nativeness"

It seems to me that all you're saying is that if you look back far enough into the past you can always find a time when the group of people who live in a place today did not live there (or, more accurately, their direct ancestors didn't live there).

There were no Spanish people in the Americas prior to Columbus's expeditions. So, your argument would presumably go along the lines that people of Spanish descent have no right to live in the Americas today. Is that correct?

For example? I've looked and can't find any historical evidence that there were a people called "Jews" before Islam in Palestine.

The bible is one obvious historical source. Even the New Testament was 500 years earlier than Islam.

I'd be happy to see one source which shows that the Jews of modern Israel are the same people as the Hebrews of ancient Judea or even the Israelites of ancient Israel.

What do you mean by "same people"?

Are modern Germans the "same people" as the Germanic tribes of the middle ages? Are modern Australians the "same people" as the indigenous inhabitants who lived there 40,000 years ago? Are modern Norwegians the "same people" as the Vikings? Are modern Inuit the "same people" as the inhabitants of Alaska 2000 years ago?

Or even a source that shows there was an ancient Israel.

If you don't want to look back further than 2000 years ago, you'll find Roman records that record that the land area of Israel was occupied by Jewish people then. The bible also corroborates the story, of course, but the Romans had no reason to lie.

I think, SAM, that as usual you are being disingenuous. If you go looking for the modern state of Israel in ancient times, you won't find it. But you won't find France or the United States or India or any other country either. So, I still don't see what your point is.

 

[S.A.M.]

If you don't want to look back further than 2000 years ago, you'll find Roman records that record that the land area of Israel was occupied by Jewish people then

Can you show me a Roman record of Jewish people? We can look at that data objectively and move on from there. Opinions only take us so far and no further. How about a citation?

 

[James R]

A 2 second google search turned these up, SAM:

The Jewish-Roman wars were a series of revolts by the Jews of Iudaea Province against the Roman Empire. Some sources use the term to refer only to the First Jewish-Roman War (66–73) and Bar Kokhba revolt (132-135). Other sources include the Kitos War (115–117) as one of the Jewish-Roman wars; however this revolt started in Cyrenaica, and merely its final stages were actually fought in Iudea Province.

* First Jewish-Roman War (66–73) - also called the First Jewish Revolt or the Great Jewish Revolt.
* Kitos War (115–117) - sometimes called the Second Jewish-Roman War.
* Bar Kokhba revolt (132-135), also called the Second Jewish-Roman War (when Kitos War is not counted), or the Third (when the Kitos War is counted).

Further revolts by the Jews in Iudaea Province:

* War against Gallus (351), the Jewish revolt originating in Sepphoris.
* Revolt against Heraclius (613), the Jewish revolt originating in Tiberias.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Jewish-Roman_wars

The Persecution of the Jews in the Roman Empire (300-428)

http://vlib.iue.it/carrie/texts/carrie_books/seaver/text.html

The Jews under Roman rule: from Pompey to Diocletian
By E. Mary Smallwood

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...#v=onepage&q=roman references to jews&f=false

Happy reading, SAM!

(The second link has references to hundreds more sources in the bibliography, but make sure you read the entire thing.)

 

[S.A.M.]

I've read those. They are written by people who confuse Jews with Judeans. Did the Judeans ever call themselves as Jews? Did the Judeans practise Judaism?

A more critical approach:

This essay puts that question in a larger frame, by considering
first Ioudaismos and then the larger problem of ancient religion. It argues
that there was no category of “Judaism” in the Graeco-Roman world, no “religion”
too, and that the Ioudaioi were understood until late antiquity as an ethnic group
comparable to other ethnic groups, with their distinctive laws, traditions, customs,
and God. They were indeed Judaeans.

III. Searching for Ancient Jews
In the absence of either “religion” or “Judaism,” I have argued, the Ioudaioi /
Iudaei of Graeco-Roman antiquity understood themselves, and were
understood by outsiders, as an ἔθνος, a people comparable to and contrastable
with other ἔθνη. It remains to elaborate this point and to draw consequences
from it for historical work.
In form, ᾽Ιουδαῖος is cognate to ᾽Ιουδαία and indicates a “person of
Judaea”: a Judaean. It bears precisely the same relationship to the name of
the homeland that ῎Αραψ, Βαβυλώνιος, Αἰγύπτιος, Σύρος, Παρθυαῖος,
and ᾽Αθηναῖος have to the names of their respective homelands. If one
asked where a Babylonian or Egyptian or Syrian or Parthian was from, in
what laws and customs they had been educated, the answer was apparent
in their ethnic label. Th at was also the case with ᾽Ιουδαῖος (= of ᾽Ιουδαία),
which should therefore be translated “Judaean” by analogy. A hypothetically
equivalent question today, “Where are Jews from?” would not admit
of a straightforward answer, because, although the name originates with
μydwhy, ᾽Ιουδαῖοι, and Iudaei, the changes that produced our English word
have removed any immediate association with a place (as have die Juden, les
juifs, or modern Hebrew μydwhy).71 Even in Israel many Jews consider
themselves to be “from” Poland, Russia, Yemen, or Iraq, and some preserve
Ashkenazi or Sephardi traditions in dress, diet, outlook, and speech. Since
1948 it has been possible for Jews also to be “from Israel,” but the ethnicon
that corresponds to this homeland is “Israeli,” not “Jew.” Since the modern
English “Jew” does not mean “of Judaea” as Ioudaios did, the ancient term
is more faithfully rendered “Judaean.”

http://www.judenfrei.org/files/judaeans-not-jews.pdf

You need to spend more than two minutes on google for this. At least, if your approach is more than frivolous in this regard.

 

[Gustav]

2 seconds, sam

 

[S.A.M.]

I could absorb a great deal of information in two minutes, hence my comment [I'm being biased in assuming others can too, of course]. In two seconds, I can barely find a link to support my thesis but it will have to be one I am familiar with, not one I have to read and analyse.

 

[(Q)]

I could absorb a great deal of information in two minutes, hence my comment [I'm being biased in assuming others can too, of course]. In two seconds, I can barely find a link to support my thesis but it will have to be one I am familiar with, not one I have to read and analyse.

No, you pass over and ignore a great deal of information and you don't need two seconds, two minutes or two centuries, you'll still ignore it.

 

[(Q)]

Indeed. And there is no harm in them, as long as they do no harm to others.

That's the problem, isn't it. Live and let live. However, that is something the Abrahamists won't let anyone do as they demand the world change to their set of bigoted beliefs. You fuckers wade through the world causing harm to everything and everyone you contact.

So, don't give us that bullshit, Sam. You're as guilty if not more than those you condemn.

 

[quadraphonics]

Judenfrei.org, huh?

Maybe next we'll be treated to some excerpts from Mein Kampf.