My first out of body experience

[Lori_7]

And that cop out answer is satisfactory to you Lori?

How does the spirit interact with your physical body? There must be an interface, ... so how come we cannot detect the spirit through that interface?

Do you even understand the question?

Yes I do. I don't know how but if I had to guess I'd say its through a form of energy. And I have detected that energy. Its manifested in a variety of ways that I have been able to observe.

 

[Lori_7]

There are no other realms.

you don't know that. as a matter of fact, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary that you blatantly and arbitrarily dismiss, citing reasons as profound and insightful as lying and delusion and insanity.

you know as well as i do that no scientist that takes his work seriously, or has any appreciation for his work would ever say what you just said here. it would be contrary to everything he stands for.

So, that means you can defy gravity? Do you have a point?

my point is that there's this force that we observe and are affected by every minute of every day, and we don't know what causes it. we can't explain it's cause or where it comes from, we only observe it's effect. that is no different scenario than what i'm proposing of the spiritual realm.

 

[John99]

IT was not night tremors, later in more protracted OOBE my conscious awareness separated from my body

actually while sleeping a person is not conscious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

this can explain the sensation of the separation you feel. night tremor\terror and sleep paralysis are very related and then once you inject a dream state things get pretty intense. If a person has the sensation of paralysis then perhaps they would feel as though since they cannot physically move then they can do so by OBE.

 

[BertBonsai]

On the contrary, since they have been reproduced as a purely mental effect then they HAVE been shown to be delusion.

No, even if touching part of the brain produces the experience, that's not proof that it's a delusion.

For example?

No example needed to make my point there.

Correction, you believe.

Just like all knowledge is belief.

"Another reality"?

Yep. all you want, you're not showing anything except your ignorance.

 

[BertBonsai]

There are no other realms.

And your proof of that? Let me guess, absence of evidence?

 

[Dywyddyr]

No, even if touching part of the brain produces the experience, that's not proof that it's a delusion.

Since it can be induced in the brain then it's a delusion.

No example needed to make my point there.

Ah, we just take your word for it.
Righto.

Just like all knowledge is belief.

Nope.

Yep. all you want, you're not showing anything except your ignorance.

Again, no.
What evidence of "other realities" do we have?

 

[BertBonsai]

Its not real and if you do some searches (sounds like you have from the terms you are using) you will see that they are very common. Night tremors.

Those docs know everything eh? Perfect all-encompassing knowledge they have.

I never got to the point of OBE.

Keep a radio or t.v on and most likely they wont happen.

You missed out, big time. Hopefully you'll get the opportunity again. I too resisted it for many years; too scared.

 

[BertBonsai]

Since it can be induced in the brain then it's a delusion.

Nope, that's merely an assumption.

Ah, we just take your word for it.
Righto.

You need not. Just don't claim what you can't prove.

Nope.

Yep. All knowledge is belief when it comes down to it.

Again, no.
What evidence of "other realities" do we have?

No evidence is needed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense.

 

[Lori_7]

Since it can be induced in the brain then it's a delusion.

dy, everything we experience can be induced in the brain. i mean, you can poke my brain and make me smell cherries even when there are no cherries under my nose, but that doesn't mean cherries don't exist. right?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Nope, that's merely an assumption.

Wrong again. If it's purely internal then it isn't "real" i.e. related to phenomena in the "real" world.

You need not. Just don't claim what you can't prove.

You were the one that made the claim. And your word means nothing.

Yep. All knowledge is belief when it comes down to it.

I suggest you check the meanings of the two words.

No evidence is needed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense.

Oops. Agreed absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but neither is unsupported speculation in the face of lack of evidence evidence for a phenomenon.

dy, everything we experience can be induced in the brain. i mean, you can poke my brain and make me smell cherries even when there are no cherries under my nose, but that doesn't mean cherries don't exist. right?

You're confusing two separate phenomena: it can be shown that cherries have an existence other purely in the brain.

 

[Lori_7]

You're confusing two separate phenomena: it can be shown that cherries have an existence other purely in the brain.

not without a brain you can't. it's like if a bear takes a shit in the woods and there's nobody there to smell it.

besides, we're continually discovering the existence of new things that we had no idea about before...like black holes, and 7 ft tubeworms.

 

[BertBonsai]

Wrong again. If it's purely internal then it isn't "real" i.e. related to phenomena in the "real" world.

"Purely internal" is merely an assumption on your part. Also an alternate reality need not be related to phenomena in the "real" world, the one we're experiencing now.

You were the one that made the claim. And your word means nothing.

Yes, I can't prove it, I can't show an example. But that doesn't prove it's not real, i.e. an alternate reality.

I suggest you check the meanings of the two words.

I did. They're synonymous when it comes down to it.

Oops. Agreed absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but neither is unsupported speculation in the face of lack of evidence evidence for a phenomenon.

It's not speculative for those of us who've experienced OBEs. The OPer isn't claiming to prove anything.

 

[BertBonsai]

not without a brain you can't. it's like if a bear takes a shit in the woods and there's nobody there to smell it.

That's right. It's all inputs and outputs, using the brain. Like, we input the observations of a cherry into our brain, and it outputs "cherry".

 

[Dywyddyr]

not without a brain you can't. it's like if a bear takes a shit in the woods and there's nobody there to smell it.

Re-read what I wrote.
And think this time.

"Purely internal" is merely an assumption on your part.

Ah, so you'd rather assume all the extra, unprovable stuff?

Also an alternate reality need not be related to phenomena in the "real" world, the one we're experiencing now.

If we're going to sense it in any way at all it has to be related to the real world.

Yes, I can't prove it, I can't show an example. But that doesn't prove it's not real, i.e. an alternate reality.

So you're just waffling again.

I did. They're synonymous when it comes down to it.

Fail. They are not synonymous.

It's not speculative for those of us who've experienced OBEs. The OPer isn't claiming to prove anything.

It's not the speculation that's the problem: it's the fact that it's unsupported speculation.

 

[BertBonsai]

Re-read what I wrote.
And think this time.

What she wrote made sense. How do you propose to prove that cherries have an existence other than purely in our brain?

Ah, so you'd rather assume all the extra, unprovable stuff?

When you've had an OBE, you won't call it a delusion. You won't need proof in this reality.

If we're going to sense it in any way at all it has to be related to the real world.

That relationship exists in the minds of those who've had OBEs. We've retained the memory of the experience in this reality.

So you're just waffling again.

About what?

Fail. They are not synonymous.

They are. What is the difference between belief and knowledge in your book? How can you tell the difference?

It's not the speculation that's the problem: it's the fact that it's unsupported speculation.

It's not unsupported. We have the testimonies of thousands of people. You just expect support of a different type.

 

[Dywyddyr]

What she wrote made sense. How do you propose to prove that cherries have an existence other than purely in our brain?

You seem to have missed an entire school of thought/ philosophy...

When you've had an OBE, you won't call it a delusion. You won't need proof in this reality.

Why is it that every delusional crank automatically assumes than everyone who has the experience they did will also come to absolutely the same conclusions? Lori has already been told that is an incorrect assumption with regard to other "paranormal" phenomena.

That relationship exists in the minds of those who've had OBEs. We've retained the memory of the experience in this reality.

No, you've retained the memory of the illusion of reality.

About what?

You used a claim you can't substantiate to validate another claim you can't substantiate. Way to go.

They are. What is the difference between belief and knowledge in your book? How can you tell the difference?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
Knowledge is independently verifiable. Belief isn't.

It's not unsupported. We have the testimonies of thousands of people. You just expect support of a different type.

Ah, eye witness accounts. One the most unreliable methods of "support" in history. Testimony and anecdote.

 

[(Q)]

you don't know that.

And, the believers are here to tell us they DO in fact know there are other realms.

as a matter of fact, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary that you blatantly and arbitrarily dismiss

Believers incoherent, out-of-touch-with-reality ramblings, for example?

you know as well as i do that no scientist that takes his work seriously, or has any appreciation for his work would ever say what you just said here. it would be contrary to everything he stands for.

I love it when believers talk about science, it's so cute. Awww...

my point is that there's this force that we observe and are affected by every minute of every day, and we don't know what causes it. we can't explain it's cause or where it comes from, we only observe it's effect. that is no different scenario than what i'm proposing of the spiritual realm.

Lying for Jesus, again.

 

[(Q)]

And your proof of that? Let me guess, absence of evidence?

Well, we could go on about giant lizards sneezing the universe out its nostrils or flying pink dragons or invisible unicorns and such, but if you want to talk about those so-called other realms, please feel free to enlighten us.

Incoherent ramblings from ignorant believers are all there is for evidence of those realms.

 

[Lori_7]

And, the believers are here to tell us they DO in fact know there are other realms.

that it provides a logical explanation for what they've experienced.

Believers incoherent, out-of-touch-with-reality ramblings, for example?

see?

I love it when believers talk about science, it's so cute. Awww...

it's extra cute when i'm right.

Lying for Jesus, again.

i was talking about gravity silly.

 

[(Q)]

that it provides a logical explanation for what they've experienced.

So does insanity, which is far more logical, since there is no evidence for those realms but plenty of evidence for religious insanity.