Other than the fact that the oldest surviving Qur;'an are different than modern day Qur'an, no one even knows who wrote which bit, when it was finished, the name of each person who contributed to what and when, what day it was completed, who said so, who cananized it and on what criteria, etc etc etc...
Since Omar started the tradition of Tahfiz immediately after Muhammed's death, which has continued until today, there is almost nil chances of the oldest surviving Quran being any different from the modern Quran (the only differences are in didactic marks and Tahfiz takes care of that.
The same goes for your beleif in the Indian King, you may believe it is true but you can not know it is true. Actually, logic suggests it is not true as no other people recorded the event and it's biased towards a superstitous beleif.
Quite possibly.
Which is why I was referring to Islamic tradition.
So was I.
Two questions:
1) Would you say that Islamic tradition throughout the centuries have taken, on the whole, a beleif that at times Mohammad killed people or commanded the people be killed? Or are you saying he carried a sword he never used? He lead from the rear so to speak?
I think you need to differentiate between those who actually study the Quran and Hadith and those who merely express unstudied opinions.
Have you ever met an Islamic fiqh scholar or Hafiz who told you that Muhammed had killed anyone?
2) Do you Sam believe that Mohammad had killed someone or commanded that someone be killed?
Of course he did, after all he was the Judge and while he was alive passed legal rulings. I'm sure that in his legal position, he must have put murderers and terrorists to death, if they were not forgiven by their victims (in Islamic law, a victim can either forgive, demand compensation or blood retribution from the Judge)
I wonder why so many Muslims I talk to say yes he killed people. Just flat out say Oh course he killed people he was a courageous hero bla bla bla....
Considering how little the Muslims you meet appear to know about Islam, I'm not at all surprised.
Lastly, I am referring to Islamic tradition. Is there a tradition in Islam that Mohammad killed people or had other people kill people? If so who and under what circumstances?
As for:
Then why read the Qur'an at all?
"
The oldest manuscripts of the Quran still in existence date from not earlier than about one hundred years after Muhammad's death." ("Jam' Al-Qur'an", page 153)
Oh BUT Michael Michael Michael - THAT'S completely different!
Michael
(I'm tempted to ask if you believe the story about Mohammad riding magical winged fairy creature ... surely no?!?!?!? )
Lastly, DH, I asked a
question and I provided
links - asking a question is not bagging Islam - that is trying to get an answer. Maybe the answer is one you don't like but that's tough - it's still worthwhile to ask the question. So why do you be a dear and answer it?
You're a very poor researcher. The oldest
surviving Quran is from 100 years after Mohammed. Know of many 1300 year old books? Only one-third of the Othman Quran has survived, from 17 years after Mohammed's death.
As for tradition, it is collected and cited; however, the older they are the more likely they are to be accurate especially if the citations are beyond reproach. Even the ones that are well cited, if they happen to be later, only give an indication of the accuracy of citation, without that of accuracy of the subject matter. In the interest of allowing all opinions to survive (and for the integrity of later research), the Muslims kept all records with citations as they heard/found them.
Also there are issues with dating old Qurans
A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of Wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large masahif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first masahif were written. There are also examples of later masahif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!
