Muslim Morality

[Michael]

I see you're back to preaching your brand of morality

Is there any other???

What is "Muslim" morality? Is there a code somewhere we can all look up? Or is it the same as individual morality? Do you think that perhaps Sam and Michael share more moral ideals than Sam and some Muslims? I think we do.

Is it tenable? I find it amusing that you conveniently ignore the lack of information about Jesus while making these pronouncements.

I didn't make a "pronouncement" I asked did Jesus murder anyone or command anyone to murder someone? That's a question. Maybe I should have asked: In the Jesus Allegory does the God-man Archetype ever commit Murder or ask a follower to commit Murder? (seeing as in I don't believe that a Jesus ever existed)

Buddhism, as I already told you, disappeared from India after a thousand years (in a country where we have scriptures from over 3000 years ago) so its not socially tenable. Today we have Buddhist militants bombing churches, so its not that foolproof either.

Again, I didn't ask about Buddhists I asked about Buddha. It matters not to me if there is one single Buddhists in the world. I'm not Buddhist and I do not practice Buddhism. While I admire the meditative state I am certain one need not be religous to attain it. Certainly not "Buddhist".

That said, again as this is a Morality thread: In the Buddha Mythos does the Buddha ever commit Murder or ask a follower to commit Murder?


Lastly, in the Myths of The Last Prophet does Mohammad ever murder anyone or ever command that one of his followers murder someone? If so who were the people and under what circumstances were they murdered?

Surely you must know the answer to that question Sam? I mean come on - this is your beleif system after all.


Michael

PS: While I may think murdering someone can be unethical and immoral that doesn't mean that such is the case - just that such is the case for me. So of course it must be my brand of morals. I think that the Sith actually think that it is a moral obligation to attempt to murder one's teacher - but my Jedi Lore isn't so good so I may be wrong on that one???

Look, it's just that I thought someone who God was speaking directly through and to would have some kind of, I don't know, divine immunity or somesuch.

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron....


God's actually a bit of a wimp you see. Any good Prophet is smart enough to pack his own sword

No he did not perform any miracles, except that of the moon, which was also recorded in India, by an Indian king.

:roflmao:

 

[S.A.M.]

Short answer, no we don't know if Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed killed anyone.

:roflmao:

You don't have to see it as a miracle, it may be related to some real cosmic event which appeared as the moon splitting.

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book “Muhammad Rasulullah,” by M. Hamidullah:

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”

All Muslims don't even ascribe it to Mohammed

The splitting of the moon (Arabic: shaqq-al-Qamar), is one of the cosmological events happened at Muhammad's time. Most Muslims look at it as a miracle of Muhammad while others believe that the Qur'an has mentioned the referred incident as a sign of the promised hour, without ascribing it to Muhammad or mentioning it as a miracle.

 

[Michael]

While we can not KNOW jack-all (hell I don't believe Jesus existed for example) I was more interested in the tradition from the people who are the followers (Xians for Jesus, Buddhists for Buddha and Muslims for Mohammad). Did you intentionally used the word "know" - if so that is misleading.

What does Islamic tradition say about Mohammad?


A Murderous Google's tale

Jesus + Murder = Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20
[AKA Jesus is pro-mass Murder]

Buddha + Murder = couldn't find anything

Mohammad + Murder = pay dirt baby
[according to "Islamic" references similar to the one you posted about the moon (which you accept as sincere) - one Islamic sourced example, among many, is the assassination of Abu Afak.]


The smell of death is in the air. Then again, the Abrhamic God is a murderous one. As they say the Apple doesn't fall far from the tree

 

[S.A.M.]

While we can not KNOW jack-all (hell I don't believe Jesus existed for example) I was more interested in the tradition from the people who are the followers (Xians for Jesus, Buddhists for Buddha and Muslims for Mohammad). Did you intentionally used the word "know" - if so that is misleading.

What does Islamic tradition say about Mohammad?


A Murderous Google's tale

Jesus + Murder = Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20
[AKA Jesus is pro-mass Murder]

Buddha + Murder = couldn't find anything

Mohammad + Murder = pay dirt baby
[according to "Islamic" references similar to the one you posted about the moon (which you accept as sincere) - one Islamic sourced example, among many, is the assassination of Abu Afak.]


The smell of death is in the air. Then again, the Abrhamic God is a murderous one. As they say the Apple doesn't fall far from the tree

I do believe Abu Afak was allegedly assassinated.

"Salim Ibn Umayr who was one of the great weepers and who had participated in Badr, said, "I take a vow that I shall either kill Abu Afak or die before him. He waited for an opportunity until a hot night came, and Abu Afak slept in an open place. Salim Ibn Umayr knew it, so he placed the sword on his liver and pressed it till it reached his bed. The enemy of Allah screamed and the people who were his followers, rushed to him, took him to his house and interred him.

 

[Michael]

1) Do you think the murder of Abu Afak was just?
2) Why was he murdered?
3) Were other people assassinated in a similar fashion?


Do you know if Buddha ever killed another human or asked someone to kill another human?

Michael

PS: I asked Reza to send me his profile page - I still intend to send it to you

 

[S.A.M.]

1) Do you think the murder of Abu Afak was just?
2) Why was he murdered?
3) Were other people assassinated in a similar fashion?


Do you know if Buddha ever killed another human or asked someone to kill another human?

Michael

PS: I asked Reza to send me his profile page - I still intend to send it to you

Do you know if Abu Afak was murdered?
Do you think a murder recorded after 100 years and now only available from a translation of a translation should be accepted as fact?
Do you think Mohammed was responsible for the murder if it was committed by someone else?

Do you if Buddha never killed a human being or never asked someone to do it for him?

 

[Michael]

Firstly, again, I take these as lore. I don't believe a Jesus existed and I am not sure a Mohammad existed and if a Mohammad existed I am not sure he thought he was a Prophet and perhaps it is more likely the whole story is made up afyter the fact - It seems just as likely that there was a genreal whom people revered and that a Prophet story was concocted later. Or maybe he really did preach.

So with that in mind:

Do you know if Abu Afak was murdered?

I don't know but it seem that the story says yes. So I will say that as a tradition yes.

Do you think a murder recorded after 100 years and from a translation of a translation should be accepted as fact?

Nope. Then again the Qur'an wasn't written down until much later. Anyway, I'd say it's as factual as the Qur'an or the split moon then. It's as factual as Alexander chopping the Gordon knot in half. As a tradition I would say yes I will accepted that it happened much as I accept that there is a tradition that Jesus existed.

Do you think Mohammad was responsible for the murder if it was committed by someone else?

Of course.

Don't you?!?!?!?!?!??!?!

That's certainly the way criminal law works today. If a crime boss puts a hit out on someone yes they are held to account. As they should be. Just ask Charley Manson.

Do you if Buddha never killed a human being or never asked someone to do it for him?

I'm not sure if I get this question. If the tradition says that Buddha murdered another human or that Buddha asked someone to murder another human then of course he is to held responsible for Murder.

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Firstly, again, I take these as lore. I don't believe a Jesus existed and I am not sure a Mohammad existed and if a Mohammad existed I am not sure he thought he was a Prophet and perhaps it is more likely the whole story is made up afyter the fact - It seems just as likely that there was a genreal whom people revered and that a Prophet story was concocted later. Or maybe he really did preach.

So with that in mind:

I don't know but it seem that the story says yes. So I will say that as a tradition yes.

Nope. Then again the Qur'an wasn't written down until much later. Anyway, I'd say it's as factual as the Qur'an or the split moon then. It's as factual as Alexander chopping the Gordon knot in half. As a tradition I would say yes I will accepted that it happened much as I accept that there is a tradition that Jesus existed.

Of course.

Don't you?!?!?!?!?!??!?!

That's certainly the way criminal law works today. If a crime boss puts a hit out on someone yes they are held to account. As they should be. Just ask Charley Manson.

I'm not sure if I get this question. If the tradition says that Buddha murdered another human or that Buddha asked someone to murder another human then of course he is to held responsible for Murder.

Michael

So which tradition do you choose to believe in, the one that says Abu Afak was not murdered or the one that says he was?

According to Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Ishâq, Abu 'Afak was a 120 years old Jewish man who had abused the Prophet(P) verbally, so the latter launched a raid under the command of Salîm Ibn 'Umaîr to kill him. We do know that Ibn Ishâq lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Hijra, as well as Al-Waqîdî from whom Ibn Sa'd (died 230 A.H.) copied the story of Abu 'Afak.

As explained above, the chain of reporters of the story from eye-witnesses of the event till Ibn Ishâq or Al-Waqîdî must be examined and verified. So, our legitimate question is: where is the isnâd (i.e., chain of reporters)?

Unfortunately, references of the Sîrah do not provide such information. Actually, we are told that this story has no isnâd at all; neither Ibn Ishâq (or his disciple Ibn Hîsham) nor Al-Waqîdî (or his disciple Ibn Sa'd) had provided such a thing! In this case, the story is rated by hadîth scholars as "...of no basis", indicating that it has reached the lowest degree of criticism regarding its isnâd. This is in fact a proper scientific position because we cannot accept such a problematic story without evidence.

By the way tradition also says Muhammed may have split the moon. Do you believe that?

 

[Michael]

So which tradition do you choose to believe in, the one that says Abu Afak was not murdered or the one that says he was?

I personally do not even think there was an Abu Afak. I find it hard to believe there were 120 year old men walking around in the deserts of Arabia!!!

What I suspect is that as Mohammad the General consolidated power by offing political rivals by assassination - as was the practice for people of that time period. All generals and would-ne leaders said they were Prophets. If the expected to be successful.

I find it hard to believe there is any "scientific" verification to any of these myths. For example, when I asked when, which parts and by whom exactly was each part of the Qur'an written down when it was canonized there's a big fat who knows and who cares YET you certainly take the Qur'an as the words of God to an angle to a man to a companion to peace of bark to a later historian to a peace of paper to a book to someone who decided which would go where to codified through an evolution of history and change and finally to Sam.

Which leaves us with the more reasonable question which is what do the majority of Muslims for the majority of history think? Which is why asked: Did Mohammad kill anyone or ask that someone be killed or even let it be known that it would be good if so-and-so was killed?

You said yes, Then you probably thought about it and said Oh Oh Oh I don't like that - and now you say no.

That's fine and all I asked.

Do I think the moon was moved? Goddess No! But I do think that Muslim tradition says that the moon was moved or split.

Michael

Here: I googled Mohammad + Murder and clicked feeling lucky

The odd thing this is from Arab News and starts out "Despite what the enemies of Islam say, particularly nowadays, and what impression some fringe groups of Muslim hard-liners advocate, Islam is a religion of peace, which prefers to live with all communities in an atmosphere of mutual respect and true understanding."
and yet ends with this:
"Abdullah ibn Khatal used to be a Muslim. The Prophet once sent him to collect zakah from people who lived far away. He traveled with another man and a servant of his who was a Muslim. At one stage on the way they stopped. He gave the servant orders to slaughter a big goat and prepare food for him while he himself went to sleep. When he woke up, he discovered that the servant had not done anything. He killed his servant and, fearing the Prophet’s punishment, reverted to idolatry. He also had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet’s instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. The man was killed as he was actually holding on to the coverings of the Kaaba. Abu Barzah Al-Aslami and Saeed ibn Hurayth Al-Makhzumi killed him along with one of his slave girls. The other managed to flee until someone sought a special pardon for her from the Prophet, which he granted."

IMHO it seems many Muslims naturally except Mohammad asked that some people be killed. It's only you modern sensibility that seems to find the act of Murder distasteful. Back then it was as natural as taking a fourth wife

 

[WildBlueYonder]

The US is hardly in a position to preach morality;

as a country, yes I agree, but are you saying that your country is more moral? what country would that be?

if it's you, you are talking about, are you an ethicist, how do you make judgments? what is your standards, how do you judge right or wrong? seems to me, as an apologist for islam, you have chosen a hard chore, seeming that since its earliest times, killed, plundered, raped, pillaged & conquered those that, were just minding their own business, Mohammad & his followers decided they had to convert via the sword.

and perhaps you should take up writing fiction.

thank you, I 've already written several outlines; in sci-fi, history, archeology & biology. Should publish in the next 2 to 3 years, in sci-fi. the rest after I get my PhD. (10 or so years from now)

 

[WildBlueYonder]

So which tradition do you choose to believe in, the one that says Abu Afak was not murdered or the one that says he was?

from examples, both in the past & now, I'd say, that the latter.

By the way tradition also says Muhammed may have split the moon. Do you believe that?

are you saying that muslims are not good historians? maybe, not to be trusted? I mean, they were passing on the life of their prophet, as a role model for those that followed, how could they lie?

 

[DiamondHearts]

This is nothing but a Muslim bashing thread, where are the Moderators?

You people do not realize:

1. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be to him) was a statesman as well as a Prophet, so he was obliged and fully justified in declaring war and dividing up spoils of war

2. The treaty of Hudaybiya was broken by the Quraish when they raided a pagan bedouin tribe allied to the Muslim state. The chief of Quraish, Abu Sufyan, himself recognized his mistake.

3. If you want to ask us questions about Muslim morality (as though we are on trial for immorality), please ask a few questions and wait for our response. Don't make your own guesses as to what we believe.

4. Obviously, the information you have obtained is heavily biased and has serious flaws. Please reveal the sources (websites) where you obtained this information.

 

[Michael]

Again, one does not have to look all that hard to find something written by an eminent Islamic scholar: Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Yasaris the earliest and most important source of historical information about the life of Muhammad

If anything it says that "Muslims" at the most earliest times didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with Mohammad having people murdered that offended him.

Translation by
Alfred Guillaume


Another was Abdullah Khatal of B. Taym b. Ghalib. He had become a Muslim and the apostle sent him to collect the poor tax in company with one of the Ansar. He had with him a freed slave who served him. (He was a Muslim.) When they halted he ordered the latter to kill a goat for him and prepare some food, and went to sleep. When he woke up the man had done nothing, so he attacked and killed him and apostatized. He had two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed with him.


You were quick to accept a second hand story of an alleged event written by an Indian Muslim about the splitting moon. Surely the earliest Islamic Historian has something worthwhile to say on the matter????

Michael

 

[Michael]

DiamondHearts,

Hello, I agree that WildBlueYonder has an ax to grind but my question of whether or not Mohammad murdered or ordered the murder of another human is a legitimate question. One Sam seems loath to confront because it is an affront to her modern sensibilities - that a person could so cold heartedly order another's death. The question of morals is ambiguous. It asks the individual to what morals do they ascribe. I think if someone insults me they most certainly should not be killed.

That's immoral IMHO.

What do you think?

Michael

 

[SkinWalker]

This is nothing but a Muslim bashing thread, where are the Moderators?

The moderator holds all religions in equal contempt. Why should I favor a misogynistic an violent cult like Islam, which puts apostates and converts to death in Islamic theocracies?

No, sir. If Muslims cannot defend their cult with reason and logic, why should it not be subjected to the same ridicule and criticism that other superstitions are faced with?

Now if anyone calls you a bad word, click the report button. I'll hook you up.

 

[DiamondHearts]

The moderator holds all religions in equal contempt. Why should I favor a misogynistic an violent cult like Islam, which puts apostates and converts to death in Islamic theocracies?

No, sir. If Muslims cannot defend their cult with reason and logic, why should it not be subjected to the same ridicule and criticism that other superstitions are faced with?

Now if anyone calls you a bad word, click the report button. I'll hook you up.

If this comes from a moderator, exactly what kind of moderation do we expect to get.

Please read a bit more on Islam, here are some resources:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm

http://www.understanding-islam.com/

http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

I hope your opinions have changed by your next post.

 

[Michael]

3. If you want to ask us questions about Muslim morality (as though we are on trial for immorality), please ask a few questions and wait for our response. Don't make your own guesses as to what we believe.

In Islamic tradition concerning The Last Prophet Mohammad, did Mohammad ever personally murder anyone or ever command that one of his followers murder someone?

If so, who were the people and under what circumstances were they murdered?


Michael

 

[SkinWalker]

If this comes from a moderator, exactly what kind of moderation do we expect to get.

The kind that doesn't believe that religious cults and superstitions should get a free pass simply because there are those in society who think it is "disrespectful" to question or publicly criticize them.

Since you're fond of propaganda websites, please allow me to post a few that counter the superstitions of Mohammedanism (aka Islam).

An Atheist's Guide to Mohammedanism

Ibn Warraq: Why I Am Not A Muslim

The Logic of Allah's Existence

The Skeptic's Annotated Koran

An Introduction to Hadith

Islamic Science: Does Islamic literature contain scientific miracles?

Qur'an: A Work of Multiple Hands?

 

[DiamondHearts]

Skinwalker, if you have any questions on Islam, we can discuss them if you like.

 

[SkinWalker]

I have no questions about your cult at this time. The links I provided have all the answers to any I had previously. Thank you for the offer, however.