Muslim Morality

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally Posted by Michael
The story as printed from the News agency ArabNews.com.

Here is the story they printed:

"Abdullah ibn Khatal used to be a Muslim. The Prophet once sent him to collect zakah from people who lived far away. He traveled with another man and a servant of his who was a Muslim. At one stage on the way they stopped. He gave the servant orders to slaughter a big goat and prepare food for him while he himself went to sleep. When he woke up, he discovered that the servant had not done anything. He killed his servant and, fearing the Prophet’s punishment, reverted to idolatry. He also had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet’s instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. The man was killed as he was actually holding on to the coverings of the Kaaba. Abu Barzah Al-Aslami and Saeed ibn Hurayth Al-Makhzumi killed him along with one of his slave girls. The other managed to flee until someone sought a special pardon for her from the Prophet, which he granted."

OK: to start the discussion the parameter is defined as to determine whether you, the reader, thinks that the protagonist in the story acted morally or immorally.


The question is phrased: Is it moral or is immoral to instruct someone to kill the two slave girls for singing songs that are full of abuse?

There are two choices here
1) moral
2) immoral


Thanks
Michael

Now I'm pissed.::bugeye::

why? just answer the question

Bugger off. Do you believe this story? Why? Because it was given by a Christian missionary? Even there there are no other citations to back it up? If you believe this story, do you believe the more highly cited story about the moon split, if not why not?

believe it? yes, because from the earliest encounters between muslims & others (what you would call infidels), islam always chose the war angle, see examples;
settled in Yatrib, started banditry & then war with Mecca
conquered area around Yatrib, then Mecca
then Arabian peninsula, then went after Byzantine, Persian, central Asia, north Africa, Spain

they did this not with holy men, reciting the quran, preaching "salaam, salaam, my brother"
but with arrogant letters demanding conversion, then the sword followed

islam took via the sword, it had no one to condemn its actions, because those that did, lost their heads, now that you have to defend your ancestors previous actions, you must taqiyya, use jihad of the pen, jihad of the propaganda mill, because you received the sugar-coated version of history, wherein never would muslims lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape or pillage, it was always the other guys, those big, bad, evil infidels, by golly, always spreading lies about the good, sweet people, that say to others, "islam means peace".
when in reality, "islam means submission, so you better do it or else"


Read these & decide
http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/infallible1a.asp

A LETTER TO KHUSROW, THE KING OF IRAN
In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
From Muhammad, God's Messenger, to Khusrow, the King of Persia. Greetings to the followers of the right path, to those obedient to God and His Prophet, to those who bear witness to God's Oneness, who worship the One God, and who bear witness to the prophecy of God's servant, Muhammad.
Truly I call upon you to obey God's command and convert to Islam. I am God's Messenger to all the people so that living hearts will be awakened and illuminated and so that infidels will have no excuses. Submit to Islam so you will be safe and immune, and if you disobey me and turn down my invitation, you will be blamed for the sins of the magi.

A LETTER TO HARQAL, THE KING OF ROME
In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
...I call upon you to submit to Islam. If you become a Muslim, you will share the Muslims gains and their losses, and if you do not want to become a Muslim yourself, then let your people freely convert to Islam or pay the poll tax, paid in lieu of conversion to Islam, and do not restrict them in choosing their faith.

The letters of the Holy Prophet of Islam were not exclusively written to Kings. Rather, he sent letters to various nations and to the followers of other faiths so all would be informed of the rising of the Sun of Islam.

THE LETTER TO THE RULER OF YAMAMAH
In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
This is a letter from God's Messenger, Muhammad to Hawzah. Greetings to the one who follows the path of salvation and the instructions of the divine guides.
You, the ruler of Yamamah, note that my faith will advance to the farthest place where man can go, so submit to Islam to be immune.

 

[S.A.M.]

why? just answer the question


believe it? yes, because from the earliest encounters between muslims & others (what you would call infidels), islam always chose the war angle, see examples;
settled in Yatrib, started banditry & then war with Mecca
conquered area around Yatrib, then Mecca
then Arabian peninsula, then went after Byzantine, Persian, central Asia, north Africa, Spain

they did this not with holy men, reciting the quran, preaching "salaam, salaam, my brother"
but with arrogant letters demanding conversion, then the sword followed

islam took via the sword, it had no one to condemn its actions, because those that did, lost their heads, now that you have to defend your ancestors previous actions, you must taqiyya, use jihad of the pen, jihad of the propaganda mill, because you received the sugar-coated version of history, wherein never would muslims lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape or pillage, it was always the other guys, those big, bad, evil infidels, by golly, always spreading lies about the good, sweet people, that say to others, "islam means peace".
when in reality, "islam means submission, so you better do it or else"


Read these & decide
http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/infallible1a.asp

Sorry, any sources other than unconfirmed ones?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Sorry, any sources other than unconfirmed ones?

unconfirmed? meaning, you have to agree with it?

please translate, seems like a muslim site to me, see below:

Islamic calendar or Muslim calendar also called the Hijri calendar is the calendar used to date events in many predominantly Muslim countries, and used by Muslims everywhere to determine the proper day on which to celebrate Islamic holy days or other Islamic Occasions.

Islamic calendar or Muslim calendar is based on the Glorious Qur'an and its proper observance is a sacred duty for Muslims. Almighty Allah says in the Glorious Qur'an:

The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year) - so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth ... (Glorious Qur'an 9:36)

http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/default.asp

 

[DiamondHearts]

What horrible translations? If you people read these websites and take their word for it, why do you expect us to disprove you over and over again?

Islam comes from the three letter word 'salam' peace, and the meaning of Islam is submission to God, therefore a Muslim is who willingly submits to God.

Everyone, even you, has to submit to the natural laws of this world which are the laws of God, though you might pretend to be outside this.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

What horrible translations? If you people read these websites and take their word for it, why do you expect us to disprove you over and over again?

so, do you recommend any arabic to english translation sites? or do we have to rely on your word?

Islam comes from the three letter word 'salam' peace, and the meaning of Islam is submission to God, therefore a Muslim is who willingly submits to God.

funny, if you need to know arabic to understand islam, islam must be an arabic religion, not worthy of being a universal religion, if you have to convert to an arab after you convert to islam

Everyone, even you, has to submit to the natural laws of this world which are the laws of God, though you might pretend to be outside this.

I believe that, just that your god is not my God, allah of the black stone, is an idol sanitized, YHWH is the God of the Universe, creator of Heaven & Earth, allah is an impostor, the idol of the Quarish of Mecca, that moon god crescent of the mosque

YHWH

in Hebrew, the name of God as revealed to Moses. Because of its four letters, it is also known as the Tetragrammaton.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9077959/YHWH

 

[DiamondHearts]

so, do you recommend any arabic to english translation sites? or do we have to rely on your word?

I am proficient in classical Arabic, so I know what I am talking about when I provide citations of Quran and Hadith.
If you want proper citations, I will provide links when necessary.

funny, if you need to know arabic to understand islam, islam must be an arabic religion, not worthy of being a universal religion, if you have to convert to an arab after you convert to islam

You don't need to know Arabic to be a Muslim, but if you want to interprete and explain the Quran and Hadith it becomes necessary. Most Muslims know how to read and write Arabic, and understand basic words from the Quran.

I believe that, just that your god is not my God, allah of the black stone, is an idol sanitized, YHWH is the God of the Universe, creator of Heaven & Earth, allah is an impostor, the idol of the Quarish of Mecca, that moon god crescent of the mosque

YHWH

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9077959/YHWH

Allah (swt) is the one true god, the God of Abraham, and his name in Hebrew is Elohim (plural of Eloha, Allah). Allah (swt) does not exist in form on the earth and there is nothing in existence which can meet His greatness. He created man and all things in the universe. If you don't believe in these attributes of God, you don't believe in monotheism.

 

[Michael]

Now I'm pissed.:bugeye:

Bugger off. Do you believe this story? Why? Because it was given by a Christian missionary? Even there there are no other citations to back it up? If you believe this story, do you believe the more highly cited story about the moon split, if not why not?

PS adding bold and color (or waving arms and shouting) does not change a question or make it more relevant.

Firstly, if you would have read my post I specifically did exactly as you asked Sam - I posted parameters. I specifically said that it doesn't matter if you or I do or do not believe the story. I want to know if you think that the protagonist in the story acted morally. It’s not my fault that you got pissed off. I wish you had instead written: Michael I do not want to continue this debate. That is fine. I am happy to end the debate. But don’t ask me to set the parameters to a question and then tell me to go f*ck myself because a) it’s a waste of my and your time and b) f*cking myself is difficult.

Secondly the story is believed by many Muslims – which is relevant to the post because this is about Muslim morality.

Thirdly the story was from an Islamic News Organization NOT a Christian missionary website. I have no idea where THAT came from.
Arab News and starts out "Despite what the enemies of Islam say, particularly nowadays, and what impression some fringe groups of Muslim hard-liners advocate, Islam is a religion of peace, which prefers to live with all communities in an atmosphere of mutual respect and true understanding."
and yet ends with this:
"Abdullah ibn Khatal used to be a Muslim. The Prophet once sent him to collect zakah from people who lived far away. He traveled with another man and a servant of his who was a Muslim. At one stage on the way they stopped. He gave the servant orders to slaughter a big goat and prepare food for him while he himself went to sleep. When he woke up, he discovered that the servant had not done anything. He killed his servant and, fearing the Prophet’s punishment, reverted to idolatry. He also had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet’s instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. The man was killed as he was actually holding on to the coverings of the Kaaba. Abu Barzah Al-Aslami and Saeed ibn Hurayth Al-Makhzumi killed him along with one of his slave girls. The other managed to flee until someone sought a special pardon for her from the Prophet, which he granted."

Fourthly, the original story was written by an eminent Islamic scholar: Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Yasarwho is considered by many the earliest and most important source of historical information about the life of Muhammad

Translation by
Alfred Guillaume


Another was Abdullah Khatal of B. Taym b. Ghalib. He had become a Muslim and the apostle sent him to collect the poor tax in company with one of the Ansar. He had with him a freed slave who served him. (He was a Muslim.) When they halted he ordered the latter to kill a goat for him and prepare some food, and went to sleep. When he woke up the man had done nothing, so he attacked and killed him and apostatized. He had two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed with him.

Again, Bugger off.

I've already answered this, if it's not the answer you are expecting, then that is not my problem.

This is because your response was confusing to me. Excuse me if I didn't get it he first time, feel sorry for my stupidity - but don't tell me to f*ck off! Also, don't confuse me and my line of thought with others you are writing to. If I piss you off tell me and I will do something about it. Don't tell me to get stuffed - I have never done that to you, have I? One rant in all these posts and it came with a *rant alert*

This thread is supposed to be about Muslim Morals yet when I ask about this clearly popular Islamic story you tell me to get stuffed?


That’s odd behavior.



Here is why I am STILL unclear.

The oldest surviving Quran is the same as the present one, 1300 years of unchanged maintenance of the text.

People have made additions in the written changing swad to seen adding silent nuns, etc but the oral recital is unchanged from the beginning. I have seen lots of websites where people have pointed out where someone has made hundreds of changes in alphabets etc blah blah.

Maybe I missed something but these two statements seem to be contradictory. Which is why I asked for clarification.

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Its like saying writing color instead of colour or writing amazing instead of amasing is a change in the book. Read out loud, its still the Quran.

 

[GeoffP]

Give it up Geoff, floundering is so unmanly.

It would be, if I were. How again is it floundering to point out that radical beliefs are held by a significant minority of the islamic community?

 

[GeoffP]

So you've already made up your mind about all Muslims.

?? Eh? How precisely do you draw this inference? Seems a bit biased itself, actually: you can now claim that I just hate all muslims. Of course! That's why I refer to attitudes, significant minorities of opinion, political islam. I suppose it does make it easier for you this way; now you can avoid having to state any opinion about anything. What a fine position in a moderator.

That was exactly what I wanted to know.

Exactly what you wanted to infer, rather. Congratulations. You have expertly fudged the situation. Fudged, not judged. There's a difference, you know.

You can also decide what my position is, just look up Muslim position on apostacy on jihadwatch.com for my position on any argument related to Islam, the Quran, the Hadith, etc.

So which are you claiming then? Moderacy or extremity? You realize that - contrary to your childish accusations - I am treating you as an individual here. I am trying to gauge your actual opinions, because it almost sounds as if they had migrated. If you want to be petty because you feel offended, then you're being silly. I abhor DH because and only because of his support for elements of extremism such as the murder of apostates and the like. This can be found by searching for his admitted opinion. So, I ask again: do you or do you not support the judicial murder of islamic apostates? Should people be, in your opinion, allowed to leave islam without penalty? Or do you side with DH on this issue, which is - I'm given to understand from your claim of moderacy - inimical to your worldview?

Note to Michael: I suggest you get familiar with this website; you'll find many of their arguments strangely compelling, echoing with truth and conviction, notwithstanding the Arabic speaking ability or anonymous nature (due to barbaric Muslims at their heels with swords, of course) of many of their contributers. Or the fact that it is run by neorepublicans..

You might find the fact that the stories are drawn from the world press of major newspapers, rather than religious apologetics sites, also compelling. But I leave it to others to make up their own mind.

 

[GeoffP]

Dear geoff,

i hope you are well.

And I you. I'm sorry I didn't get back to you before; I seemed to have got caught up in someone else's trolling.

I think Sam just asked me to give a perspective of what a muslim guy thought about sermons preached by imams in Mosques.

the real problem i have with some imams in england is the ones who come from a little village in apkistan and start preaching there small minded approach here in england and dont actually open their eyes to what is happening around them, i n terms of soecity and change.

This is precisely what needs to occur; I am wholeheartedly encouraged by your stance. Exactly.

But thanks for brushing my opinions to one side anyway

If that was the impression I gave then I apologize - my point was that Sam's support for "blood money" was ridiculous. European culture used to do the same, but it wasn't very moral. It reduces people to numerical value, for which there's no real reason on the parameters under discussion. I definitely don't want to brush your opinions to one side, however.

well at least i now know and it has been confirmed that you are from the UK after 18 months of being on these forums.

Yep. Not there ATM, though. I like to keep my actual location a mystery; call me crazy, but I have the strange suspicion that some people might, in a entirely accidental slip of hysterical religious outrage, give that information to the wrong people. I admit, it's a long shot, but I have a family to think of and so I don't take the chance.

Take it ez
zak

You too.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I am proficient in classical Arabic, so I know what I am talking about when I provide citations of Quran and Hadith.
If you want proper citations, I will provide links when necessary.

Good for you, are you a native Arabic speaker or did you take it up afterwards?

You don't need to know Arabic to be a Muslim, but if you want to interprete and explain the Quran and Hadith it becomes necessary. Most Muslims know how to read and write Arabic, and understand basic words from the Quran.

not sure that is true, because if point #1 is true, that you need to know classical Arabic to fully understand the quran, well, you have just confirmed my point, that islam is an arabic religion, made by arabs, for arabs, has an arabic god, leads most converts to change their previously good enough names into Arabic, as Cat Stevens become “Yosef Islam” or John Walker Lindh into “Suleyman al-Faris”? otherwise why do you need to know arabic?

Allah (swt) is the one true god, the God of Abraham, and his name in Hebrew is Elohim (plural of Eloha, Allah). Allah (swt) does not exist in form on the earth and there is nothing in existence which can meet His greatness. He created man and all things in the universe. If you don't believe in these attributes of God, you don't believe in monotheism.

Abraham never knew allah of the meccans, to prove it, just answer me this, “what were the names of his sons?” they were Ishmael & Yitzhak, you’ll notice his firstborn was not named “Ishmallah”, which would be “allah hears”, but “Ishmael”, apparently Abraham did not know arabic, nor did he know allah, he apparently spoke a language closer to Hebrew, than Arab & since it appears that allah can only speak arabic, would have needed a translator to speak to him

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Its like saying writing color instead of colour or writing amazing instead of amasing is a change in the book. Read out loud, its still the Quran.

My dear samcdkey, that’s a bit disingenuous, since you know that someone that is fully bilingual in 2 languages, can translate from one to the other, & there’s a difference in concept here.

the fact that the quran is “SPECIAL” in arabic, states plainly, that it is an arabic religion, has an arabic god, is made for arabs, meant to make all new adherents into arabs or at least in awe of them (the quranic masters), insert word picture here (as Bruce Lee wannabe, flexes muscles, assumes DM stance, makes gameface & grunts “whaaaaaaaaaaa!” in arabic)

Also, if I can make at least 5 assumptions here, correct me if I’m wrong:
1) that you are tri-lingual; in Hindi/Urdu, arabic & English,
2) that you can easily understand all 3
3) that you know there is a difference, in that if you wrote a poem in Hindi/Urdu it would be hard to translate the rhyme & meter, but if you wrote a thesis on religion in H/U it would make perfect sense in arabic or English, thus disproving your point
4) that you know there are some inconsistencies in the quran, islam but keep mum
5) that as a muslim, you would cover-up its imperfections, gloss over them so as to prove that it is a religion of logic, truth & peace

BTW, when “Fred Smith” is a good Islamic name, I might tend to believe that islam is finally getting more inclusive

 

[WildBlueYonder]

So you've already made up your mind about all Muslims. Thanks. That was exactly what I wanted to know. You can also decide what my position is, just look up Muslim position on apostacy on jihadwatch.com for my position on any argument related to Islam, the Quran, the Hadith, etc.

its just funny, that’s what I thought about you & your opinion of him, must be hard defending the indefensible

Note to Michael: I suggest you get familiar with this website; you'll find many of their arguments strangely compelling, echoing with truth and conviction,

& what sites do you use?

notwithstanding the Arabic speaking ability

examples please? & does that really make a differance, does that imply on your part, that as if I as a christian, need to speak, write, read in perfect latin, just to debate the issues?

or anonymous nature (due to barbaric Muslims at their heels with swords, of course) of many of their contributers.

Might be reasonable precaution, see examples below:

Film-maker killed in Islamic revenge

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard and Joan Clements in Amsterdam
Last Updated: 1:55am GMT 04/11/2004

An outspoken Dutch film-maker was shot and stabbed to death yesterday by a Dutch-Moroccan man in apparent reprisal for his campaign against Islam, sending shock waves through a country that exalts freedom of speech.
Theo van Gogh, 47, a provocateur and enfant terrible of Dutch cinema, was ambushed by a bearded man in Arab clothing as he cycled through the heart of Amsterdam.

The Dutch media immediately linked the attack to the director's latest film, Submission, which highlights the repression of women in some Islamic cultures.

From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/03/wgogh03.xml

Bible publishers killed in Turkey
ISTANBUL (AP) — Three employees of a publishing house that distributes Bibles were slain Wednesday in the latest attack apparently targeting Turkey's Christian minority.
The attack added to concerns in Europe about whether this predominantly Muslim country — which is bidding for EU membership — could protect its religious minorities. It also underlined concerns about rising Turkish nationalism and hostility toward non-Muslims.
The three victims — a German and two Turkish citizens — were found with their hands and legs bound and their throats slit at the Zirve publishing house in the central city of Malatya.

From: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-04-18-turkey-bible-violence_N.htm

Murder most foul
The recent rise of racism in Turkey claimed its most prominent victim last week, with the murder of a well-known Turkish-Armenian journalist. Gareth Evans reports from Istanbul
Last Friday Hrant Dink, the 52 year-old editor of the bilingual newspaper Agos, was shot and killed on the street outside the building where he worked.
In recent years Dink had become a figure of hate for Turkey's ultranationalist right. His attempts to build bridges, both inside Turkey and between Turks and the citizens of the Republic of Armenia, had frequently brought him into conflict with the Turkish state and Turkish nationalists, particularly over the ethnic cleansing of the Armenians who were under Ottoman rule during the First World War.

From: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/829/in4.htm

Or should I remind you that the fatwa against Salman Rushdie is still in effect?

On 14 February 1989, a fatwa requiring Rushdie's execution was proclaimed on Radio Tehran by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the spiritual leader of Iran at the time, calling the book "blasphemous against Islam." A bounty was offered for the death of Rushdie, who was thus forced to live under police protection for years to come. On 7 March 1989, the United Kingdom and Iran broke diplomatic relations over the Rushdie controversy. In this manner, Khomeini tried to declare himself as a major leader of Muslim world and indeed he became more popular, even in Sunni countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie

I find it ironic that the fatwah was issued on Valentines Day, very lovey-dovey, kiss-kiss; islam is a religion of peace, as in R.I.P.

Or the fact that it is run by neorepublicans..

proof? links? how do you know? was it published in that bastion of responsible journalism, al-jezeera? or the mouthpiece of the GOP, Fox News?
btw, its neo-cons, as in neoconservatives

 

[DiamondHearts]

not sure that is true, because if point #1 is true, that you need to know classical Arabic to fully understand the quran, well, you have just confirmed my point, that islam is an arabic religion, made by arabs, for arabs, has an arabic god, leads most converts to change their previously good enough names into Arabic, as Cat Stevens become “Yosef Islam” or John Walker Lindh into “Suleyman al-Faris”? otherwise why do you need to know arabic?

You need to know classical Arabic if you wish to offer commentary on the Quran. I am simply pointing this out as you quoted the Quran before, and offered poor commentary.

It is not an obligation to change your name to Arabic if you become a Muslim, however some people do this and this is fine.

The Quran is in Arabic, however the religion is universal. It is not my problem you cannot understand this.

Abraham never knew allah of the meccans, to prove it, just answer me this, “what were the names of his sons?” they were Ishmael & Yitzhak, you’ll notice his firstborn was not named “Ishmallah”, which would be “allah hears”, but “Ishmael”, apparently Abraham did not know arabic, nor did he know allah, he apparently spoke a language closer to Hebrew, than Arab & since it appears that allah can only speak arabic, would have needed a translator to speak to him

Abraham spoke Babylonian and later the language of the Canaanites. You are quoting from the Jews the names, Ishmael and Yitzhak. In Arabic they are known as Isma'eel and Is'haq.

Abraham was well acquainted with Allah (swt), for He is the one true God without partners, or children. The God of Moses and Jesus (peace be to them).

Allah (swt) is the Arabic name for God in the Quran. Calling God by other names is not wrong.

Christians Arabs also refer to God as Allah. Care to comment?

 

[GeoffP]

I have a comment. Why is "oppression worse than slaughter" (Q 2: 191) while non-believers must be "made to feel themselves oppressed" (Q 9: 29)? Can this latter passage just be rejected wholly as not being the word of Allah?

Geoff

 

[Gently Passing]

A laundry list of Christian sins exists as well.

For my money, Buddhists have the cleanest slate.

 

[Michael]

Women, Wealth and Warfare!

The three big differences between Jesus and Mohammed.

Jesus abstained from all three...Mohammed did not.

Why is it we always have to compare MOhammad with Jesus? Why not compare Mohammad with Buddha? Or Julius? Or Emperor Jimmu?