Muslim magazine journalists pretended to be Roman Catholics :D

[S.A.M.]

That half eaten wafer, and spitting it out and taking photos of it, when in an environment of rising religious violence and intolerance.. what do you think their intent and purpose was Sam?

I would say feeding the sentiments of people who cannot see a wafer for what it is and go into leaps of imagination about bigotry, firebombing and murder.

The question is: how far did they succeeed?

Agreed. However..

But you would be angry enough about it and would appreciate an apology, right?

Why should anyone apologise to me for being a philistine? Thats their problem, not mine. :shrug:

 

[Michael]

What hate? Malaysians have a peaceful non-militaristic state. They have to get excited over a couple of guys spitting wafers in church. And the church sues them, and the paper apologises. Thats not hate.

You haven't answered as to what then does drive this sort of bigotry? How is this bigotry related to the laws against Apostate? How is this bigotry related to the torching of Churches for using the Arabic work for god? How is this bigotry related to the torching of houses for a rumor some Christians desecrated something considered holy to Muslims in Pakistan?


You say there's no hate, tell that to the people who feel it's presence day in and day out.

 

[S.A.M.]

How is this bigotry related to the laws against Apostate?

Its not, anymore than university degrees are bigoted against the less qualified. People need labels for identification no matter what, politicians take advantage of them to create platforms.

 

[Michael]

S.A.M.,

You say a wafer is but a wafer and wine but wine. Is the Qur'an but paper and ink? Say someone decided to provide stacks of Qur'ans for use as toilet paper - that's perfectly fine with you? Is this right? It's just paper and ink.

 

[Bells]

I would say feeding the sentiments of people who cannot see a wafer for what it is and go into leaps of imagination about bigotry, firebombing and murder.

Learn to respect that for Catholics, that wafer is the embodiment of their Christ. When you have an atmosphere where churches are firebombed and one can be murdered or arrested for passing on a bible in a university, for example, and you can face arrest for converting away from Islam, then yes, the spitting out of that wafer is feeding the sentiments of people who are already discriminated against and hated in the country.

While you feel free to denigrate them for their beliefs, just keep in mind that while it's just a wafer to you, it is a vitally important part of their religious worship.

The question is: how far did they succeeed?

Well thankfully, the paper has the Government on its side.. not surprising really when one consders the Government to be so well connected with said paper. How did they succeed? They succeeded in getting the paper to apologise for its actions.

Why should anyone apologise to me for being a philistine? Thats their problem, not mine. :shrug:

Just as it was the Danes' problem for publishing their cartoons. You know what? You're right. They shouldn't have apologised for that either. After all, it's just a "fricking" cartoon. But that is the subject for another thread..

 

[S.A.M.]

Is the Qur'an but paper and ink?

Pretty much. In fact, for those who read it without understanding it, its a waste of both paper and ink. The medium of communication is not more important than the message

 

[Michael]

Its not, anymore than university degrees are bigoted against the less qualified. People need labels for identification no matter what, politicians take advantage of them to create platforms.

Why was there a law against changing your superstition in the first place?

 

[Michael]

Pretty much. In fact, for those who read it without understanding it, its a waste of both paper and ink. The medium of communication is not more important than the message

hahaha... well now, a year later you come full circle. That's good to see. We're making progress

 

[S.A.M.]

Why was there a law against changing your superstition in the first place?

I already told you this, wait let me dig it up:

If political expediency is the excuse, then lets look at why some Muslims believe in the death sentence for apostacy, given that its not defined in the religion.

Classical Hanafi doctrine holds that the capital punishment of the apostate serves mainly political aims. I quote two famous Hanafi jurists from Central Asia on this matter. The first is the eleventh-century Transoxanian jurist Sarakhsi, one of the major authorities of the Hanafi school. He says:

The change of religion and the original form of unbelief
belong to the most abominable of crimes. But [their judgment]
is a matter between God and his servant and the punishment
[of this crime] is postponed until the hereafter.
The measures advanced in this base world [and which thus
precede God's judgment] are matters of political expediency
[siyasat mashru'a] ordained by the law in order to protect
human interests" (Sarakhsi, n.d., vol. 10: 110).

In the same vein, the twelfth-century Hanafi jurist Marghinani, whose book al-Hidaya exerted a lasting influence on the Hanafi jurists of the Near East, states his position with the following words:

In principle, punishments are postponed to the hereafter
and the fact that they are advanced [so that they precede
the hereafter] violates the sense of probation [as the sense
of human life in this world]. One deviates from this principle
in order to defy a present evil and that is warfare
[against the Muslims] ('Ayni, vol. VI: 702-703). (2)

Both authors argue that the apostate's punishment is not due to his belief but to the military and political danger that this belief may cause. They use this argument to show that women, even if they abandon Islam, should never be condemned to death because they are, according to Hanafi doctrine, physically not able to lead war on the Muslim community. The jurists conclude from this that capital punishment is not imposed for disbelief and apostasy but as a means to prevent the military and political dangers connected with it.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1957055

 

[quadraphonics]

the sentiments of people who cannot see a wafer for what it is

The only person having such a problem here is you, with your persistent - conscious? - failure to see the wafer in question for what it is: a symbol of faith and membership in a particular religion.

 

[S.A.M.]

The only person having such a problem here is you, with your persistent - conscious? - failure to see the wafer in question for what it is: a symbol of faith and membership in a particular religion.

Like untouchability

Anyway, how Christian is it to go to court over it? Shouldn't they be turning the other cheek?

 

[Bells]

Like untouchability

You serious?



Honestly, you're getting worse.

Anyway, how Christian is it to go to court over it? Shouldn't they be turning the other cheek?

They didn't go to court over it. For god's sake woman. Keep up. They accepted the apology.

 

[S.A.M.]

You serious?



Honestly, you're getting worse.

No I am pointing out that getting your sentiments hurt over a wafer is as idiotic as taking a bath because someone's shadow fell on you

They didn't go to court over it. For god's sake woman. Keep up.

The attorney general dismissed the charges, he cannot do that unless they went to court.

They accepted the apology.

This just encourages further idiocy

 

[quadraphonics]

Anyway, how Christian is it to go to court over it?

Couldn't really say, personally, but if there's a prohibition on lawsuits in the Bible I haven't heard of it.

Shouldn't they be turning the other cheek?

Well, they freely accepted the apology. I don't see much grounds for calling them hypocrits here.

 

[Bells]

No I am pointing out that getting your sentiments hurt over a wafer is as idiotic as taking a bath because someone's shadow fell on you

And again, that wafer is important to them.

The attorney general dismissed the charges, he cannot do that unless they went to court.

No my dear. The Attorney General ordered the police to not press charges. Did you even read the links provided in this thread?

This just encourages further idiocy

Weren't you the one demanding they turn the other cheek before?

 

[quadraphonics]

No I am pointing out that getting your sentiments hurt over a wafer is as idiotic as taking a bath because someone's shadow fell on you

Pretty much all religious beliefs are deeply idiotic, in that sense.

That doesn't mean that disrespecting the people who hold them is an honorable or productive thing to do. It's not as if Malaysian Catholic attachments to the communion are a social problem in the way that Indian treatment of untouchables is: they're only asking to be respected, in a context where they're being targetted with violence and repressed by the State.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't feel obligated to respect stupidity. I would have respected a priest who dismissed the incident as unimportant, which would have been the better position

 

[quadraphonics]

I don't feel obligated to respect stupidity.

You should, to the extent that the beliefs in question don't hurt anyone (which communion doesn't). Disrespecting people causes real harm, so ethical people are obligated to refrain from doing so without good cause.

I would have respected a priest who dismissed the incident as unimportant, which would have been the better position

Better for who? Not those interested in accuracy: the incident was important. This is demonstrated by, if nothing else, the fact that it became an issue to begin with.

Meanwhile, we have a religious minority being repressed, both by the state and by the larger society, and asking for nothing beyond basic rights and respect. Your response? Call them whiny idiots and insist that they're inventing problems. Unimpressive.

 

[S.A.M.]

You should, to the extent that the beliefs in question don't hurt anyone (which communion doesn't). Disrespecting people causes real harm, so ethical people are obligated to refrain from doing so without good cause.

Its not disrespecting anyone to spit out a wafer.

Better for who? Not those interested in accuracy: the incident was important. This is demonstrated by, if nothing else, the fact that it became an issue to begin with.

It did? Where? All sensible people looked at it and said its rubbish. Only the rabble rousers see anything to cry about.

Meanwhile, we have a religious minority being repressed, both by the state and by the larger society, and asking for nothing beyond basic rights and respect. Your response? Call them whiny idiots and insist that they're inventing problems. Unimpressive.

If spitting out a wafer is religious oppression, you need to shop around for a new religion

 

[Michael]

No I am pointing out that getting your sentiments hurt over a wafer is as idiotic as taking a bath because someone's shadow fell on you

And yet people were murdered for the mere rumor that the Qur'an was in someway mishandeled. I mean, people were actually murdered. Burned alive in their homes.

Come to find out, it was all just a rumor.


Imagine if someone were to wipe their arse with a page or two?

If political expediency is the excuse, then lets look at why some Muslims believe in the death sentence for apostacy, given that its not defined in the religion.

100s of millions of Muslims firmly believe that Apostates should be punished. Even murdered. You're not going to tell me that they're all experts in 14th century jurisprudence?!?!?


Come on SAM, let me guess, 10th century Christians, whom burned Apostates at the stake - where experts in 14th century Muslim jurisprudence. The answer is a little more obvious wouldn't you agree? :shrug: It's a natural extension, one could say nearly an inevitable conclusion, of the central dogma - there's one true book, one true god - and they're ours!