Muslim Cleric Calls For Beheading of Dutch Politician

[superstring01]

We have to put the cart before the horse. People have to empower themselves, because self determination and sovereignty will not be attained under puppet dictators and kings.

Um.

Not sure you followed my meaning.

First, demand a set of unbending rights. That's usually something the whole society demands. Then, slowly, old prejudices are eroded while smaller groups grow in power.

If gay people came out, right now, in Saudi Arabia or Iran--even if five or ten thousand, I refuse to believe they wouldn't suffer deadly consequences; if not by the hands of the government, then certainly at the hands of the--still--very homophobic societies. Most gays in Iran and Saudi Arabia probably don't even know--consciously--that they are gay. Repressed societies created repressed individuals. Repressed gays fear their desires so much that they bury them, unwilling to admit it to themselves. More often than not, they are the most homophobic people, as a consequence of their painful insecurity.

Gays didn't "demand" rights in Britain or the USA 100 years ago. It would have been suicide--and perhaps--even worse. First the government liberalized, new ideas trickled in, and then gays entered through the cracks of enlightenment.

A society has to be first exposed to the glimmer of liberal enlightenment before gay people can start making out in public. Shit, we can't even do that in rural parts of USA and the uber-liberal Europe without fear of physical threats from pastoral onlookers.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

First, demand a set of unbending rights

Thats called a revolution and generally they require a substantial recognition of self determination. Apathy is not conducive to such recognition

Once we pass that stage, we can move on.

Gays didn't "demand" rights in Britain or the USA 100 years ago

No and if the people at large did not care about their rights, they would still not have them. You had to have a constitutional argument against the veto for gay marriage in California. In Afghanistan, you can just find a cleric who will read the marriage vows for two men, neither of whom will admit they are gay. Thats the difference.

 

[Michael]

Not a question of no true scotsman Michael. Simply a matter of academic rigor.

Is homosexuality Islamic? Let me allay your fears, no its not Islamic. What is Islam? Submission to God. Homosexuality is irrelevant to Islam.

Is homosexuality atheist?

You know, in another thread someone said Slavery was permitted in "Islam" and another person said slavery was not permitted "under" "Islam". So? You seem to be a smart chick on what is and is not "Islamic" is Slavery permitted under "Islamic" Law.

There's that word again "Islam" pretty much can mean anything one wants it to mean can't it?

You say Islam is submission to god, but, there was an atheist Muslim on these boards once who said Islam is a way of life. I think he was closer to the accepted meaning (even though most Muslim's wouldn't consider him Muslim). I wonder, are the Bahai' Islamic SAM? How about Scientologist? They think there's a God and Mohammad was one of the Prophets. Are Ahmadiyya Muslims, Islamic people?


Let me ask this another way: Is homosexuality immoral according to the teachings of the Qur'an?

 

[Michael]

Its been put to the test.



http://filmsthatchangetheworld.vswe...Outs-Himself-to-Muslim-Scholars-at-Conference

Its irrelevant.

It certainly wasn't irrelevant to that Muslim. Again, it all comes down to what "Islam" means. Generally speaking, homosexuality is considered to be against the teachings of the Qur'an and therefor un-Islamic.

If Islam were ONLY submission to God, then there's be no need for "Islam" and no need of the world's only Perfect Book - right? I mean, either you mentally can submit or you can not (whatever "submit" means). I can't. It's physically impossible for me to believe in Allah... or Xenu. So, I can't "be" Islamic, just as I can't flap my arms and fly


PS: It is great to see Muslims coming out and taking a stand. That's a very positive sign in my mind.

 

[S.A.M.]

Let me ask this another way: Is homosexuality immoral according to the teachings of the Qur'an?

I have a strange feeling of deja vu. So lets try another approach [we will apply the see one, do one, teach one approach of medical training]

Why don't YOU tell me if homosexuality is immoral according to the teachings of the Quran?

 

[Michael]

According to the Qur'an homosexual acts are at the least unnatural and perhaps senseless (7:80-81, 26:165-6, 27:54-55, 29:28-29). That said, unnatural and senseless isn't the same as immoral. So I'd say no. The Qur'an does not teach that homosexuality is immoral. IMO anyway.

However, most Muslims do interpret the Qur'an as suggesting homosexuality is immoral. This suggests that the Qur'an could have been written much more clearer on the subject.

I think I could fix the Qur'an was the addition of a single sentence: Allah just told me that homosexuality is as natural for some people as heterosexuality is for other people.

Jesus, this Prophet stuff is easy!

Oooooo Allah also told me a few more things....

 

[S.A.M.]

According to the Qur'an homosexual acts are at the least unnatural and perhaps senseless (7:80-81, 26:165-6, 27:54-55, 29:28-29). That said, unnatural and senseless isn't the same as immoral. So I'd say no. The Qur'an does not teach that homosexuality is immoral. IMO anyway.

Then there you go. Although I have to wonder at one of those verses which apparently says, of all the creatures in the world why would you approach the males. Clearly males are the least common denominator of the animal kingdom. Hmmm.....

 

[Michael]

I wonder what Ja'far thinks? He sounds a bit gay so my guess is, being Muslim, he's a homophobe hiding deep in a closet right now

Seriously though, isn't this interesting. Most Muslims consider homosexuality immoral. But, according to you is isn't. Now, me, an atheist, who only spent all of 15 minutes researching the topic in the Qur'an, find I agree with you, the Qur'an doesn't appear to explicitly say homosexuality is immoral, unnatural maybe, but that's not the same as immoral.

Why do you think that is SAM? I mean, we have a lot of Muslim societies that are homophobic and think homosexuality is immoral - even killing homosexuals (or in the case of Iran turning them into women). Why have a Qur'an at all if it's not written in a way that inspires people to adopt the correct attitude? The whole point in writing this stuff down was to change people and society wasn't it? Or was it?

 

[S.A.M.]

we have a lot of Muslim societies that are homophobic

I disagree. I think Muslim men are more comfortable with touching other men in both sexual and non-sexual ways. I find western men more uncomfortable with touching or being touched by other men [this includes western Muslim men btw]. Westerners are fixated by pigeonholes and tend to put people in brackets which they do not subscribe to. I think what you see as homophobia is resistance to the western notions of homosexuality. Most Asian and Middle Eastern societies are far more open to flexible sexual orientation than western ones.

 

[Michael]

This is the point we come to time and time again. If after 1400 years you still have people killing homosexuals, the exact opposite of what the God-head was instructing, well, that suggests something is far from "Perfect".
Or Slavery.
Or female legal equality.
etc...

 

[S.A.M.]

This is the point we come to time and time again. If after 1400 years you still have people killing homosexuals, the exact opposite of what the God-head was instructing, well, that suggests something is far from "Perfect".
Or Slavery.
Or female legal equality.
etc...

But are they killed for being homosexuals? The death sentence is usually for forced sodomy with a minor - which I disagree with btw, although the baccha baazi in Afghanistan post-Taliban may make some people think twice about stuff like that. I'm not aware of people being put to death for their sexual orientation

In Iran it is not unusual for men to greet each other with a kiss on the lips. Could you do that?

 

[Michael]

I disagree. I think Muslim men are more comfortable with touching other men in both sexual and non-sexual ways. I find western men more uncomfortable with touching or being touched by other men [this includes western Muslim men btw]. Westerners are fixated by pigeonholes and tend to put people in brackets which they do not subscribe to. I think what you see as homophobia is resistance to the western notions of homosexuality. Most Asian and Middle Eastern societies are far more open to flexible sexual orientation than western ones.

I'm not sure if that's right. Japanese don't like to touch one another. But, prior to Christianity in Japan, homosexuality was considered normal and many Samurai were homosexuals.

That said, yes, I'm not sure where homophobia came from. Greeks weren't obviously. But Romans were. Then again it does seem that Jews were. I want to say homosexuality was sinful mainly because Romans saw it as sinful and they invented the rules that governed Civil behavior in the the Empire out of which Christianity grew. I suppose we'd have to look into it but my gut feeling is homophobia is a legacy of Roman prudishness.

BUT, maybe it's men? I mean, homosexuals were warriors in Greece, but they were only allowed to be medicine men in many Native American cultures, their orientation was still considered natural, but they weren't allowed to fight as warriors.

:shrug:

hahaha... a lot of butts in that sentence... hehe...



so, only a liberal indian chick and atheist american "get" the Qur'an ... too funny.



Oh, one last thing you seem to keep missing. The Qur'an IS "Western" Literature. It's pretty much the Bible. If you're following the Qur'an you are following the Western ideals as practiced by very Conservative Christians following Byzantine iconclasm. If there is anything "Eastern" (or Hinduish) in Christianity it was lost by the time it made it into the Qur'an.

 

[GeoffP]

For one thing, the Quran does not prescribe the death sentence for blasphemy. In fact, the Quran itself claims to be a Reminder, a reiteration of what has always been known to all peoples. And the only recommendation given for those who blaspheme is to leave them to God. So whats the difference between myself and a cleric who claims that there should be a death sentence for blasphemy? I actually read the Quran.

I hate to say it, but this sounds like supposition. I've no doubt at all that he reads the Quran too - and almost certainly more than you do. So what's the real denominator.

 

[scifes]

I wonder if that's so.

what's your take then?

Back on topic.

Offffffffff with his head!

:roflmao:
:thumbsup:

For one thing, the Quran does not prescribe the death sentence for blasphemy.

that is reliant on your understanding of the quran.
you say it isn't mentioned.
they say it is.
so who's understanding is better? and based on what?

then again, say sam, does the quran prescribe the wording of the azan? or are you against azan, and think it's the opinion of some clerics?

In fact, the Quran itself claims to be a Reminder, a reiteration of what has always been known to all peoples. And the only recommendation given for those who blaspheme is to leave them to God.

lol, "only"??
you sure about that?
you know of abrogation in the quran?
you know which verses were abrogated and which were not? you know which abrogated which? how do you know the verses you have in mind were not abrogated?

did you know that alcohol was porhibited in 4 stages, the first verse said that people use fruits for "alcohol and good food" suggesting that alcohol isn't "good food" since it was mentioned seperatly, the second verse said that alcohol had pros and cons, but the cons were more than the pros, the third said that muslims should not go to pray till they knew what they were saying[i.e not drunk], and with the five prayers scattered in the day, the sahaba could only drink at night. the last verse said banned it off.

now, if one brought you the first or second or third verse, and said that the quran said that drinking is ok, wwere you able to explain this to him?

if the quran stated everything in simple straight forward sentences, it would be a whole library, instead it contains many codes and apparent contradictions for people to come, take everythng in, analyze it, and DEDUCT what's not straightforowardly mentioned, that is the science of quran. it's not for anyone to interpret;

83. When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.

So whats the difference between myself and a cleric who claims that there should be a death sentence for blasphemy?

when you're reading medical books, what do you think he's reading?
i don't believe you're asking that question

I actually read the Quran.

so did iceaura.
is he to decide what it says and how muslims should follow it?

What is Islam? Submission to God.

what does that mean?
how does one "submit" to god? which part of "god" does a muslim submit to?

Homosexuality is irrelevant to Islam.

nothing is irrelative to islam.
everything is initially hala, or allowed. unless it is said otherwise.
for one to say that something is not excluded in the quran or the islamic teachings, one should know ALL what is excluded in the quran and the islamic teachings to say something isn't mentioned there. that is a great responsibility, you sure you up to it?

bear in mind the quran give some general instructions, like following and listening to the prophet for example, so to say something isn't mentioned in the quran is also to say the prophet said nothing about it too...

 

[S.A.M.]

that is reliant on your understanding of the quran.
you say it isn't mentioned.
they say it is.

Do they? Then "they" have only to point it out. As for me, I think Kullu min Allah and there is no intercession in Islam.

bear in mind the quran give some general instructions, like following and listening to the prophet for example

Start here:

"Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an" -Prophet Mohammed

 

[Sock puppet path]

Why don't YOU tell me if homosexuality is immoral according to the teachings of the Quran?

Just ask imam online it's fast and easy anybody can do it

Homosexuality? How do we prove that homosexuality is unnatural and why it is haram?

How do we prove that homosexuality is unnatural and why it is haram? A muslim friend of mine believes that people don?t have a choice to be gay or not because of a lot of research that proves that homosexuality may be biological. Some of this research includes studies done on twins or family members that have been separated and therefore raised in different environments ? but they both still end up gay. How do we refute this type of evidence?
Answer 12269

October 08, 2004



Homosexuality is Haraam simply because Allah declares it to be Haraam. An innate inclination towards homosexuality does not render it natural and ultimately acceptable. Their research is purely research and theory.

Even if a person is inclined to the same sex, he is required to curb his desires just as in the case where a person is inclined to a woman who is Haraam for him. He is required to control his desires and abstain.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Muhammad Kadwa
FATWA DEPT.

checked & approved by: MUFTI EBRAHIM DESAI (FATWA DEPT.)

 

[scifes]

Do they? Then "they" have only to point it out. As for me, I think Kullu min Allah and there is no intercession in Islam.

they do point it out, you can look it up in the book by ibnu-taimia i referred to. it's a bit too in-depth to transdlate and explain here.

Start here:

"Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an" -Prophet Mohammed

see? that's exactly what i'm talking about.

that hadith has been abrogated by the prophet himself.

abrogation may be a fancy word, you can say he simply instructed otherwise later in his life.

i hope i'm not intersecting by pointing this out

 

[S.A.M.]

that hadith has been abrogated by the prophet himself.

Oh? Did he rise from the dead to do so? Because ALL the Hadiths were collected between 200 to 800 years after he died.

ibnu-taimia...very complicated

You mean you need an intercessory to explain the Quran to you? Good luck with that. Make sure you choose one thats absolutely correct.

Moi, I prefer to read for myself. As for Ibn Tamiyya, the father of modern Salafism, you may be interested to know that he too was an ijtehadi Muslim who wrote against the ulema

Ali Eteraz has written a great commentary on the roots of Islamic reform and since you appear to be an advocate for Ibn Tamiyya you may be interested in reading it

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=74542

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

No fucking way.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

In Iran it is not unusual for men to greet each other with a kiss on the lips. Could you do that?

Let me be clear, I do not engage in this behavior and am infact a germaphobe.