:scratchin:
couldn't say it better.
if the correctness of one's understanding of the whole point of islam directly proportional to how much one reads the quran, then....:shrug:
Muslim Cleric Calls For Beheading of Dutch Politician
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:scratchin:
couldn't say it better.
if the correctness of one's understanding of the whole point of islam directly proportional to how much one reads the quran, then....:shrug:
Dutch troops were there in harms way to defend muslim europeans (no matter how you want to spin it.). Fact
How many hateful things have I read from Imams in muslim countries? Should I classify muslim countries by their extreme imams? You are so clever when it comes to dismissing the influence of extremist muslim voices but you seem to completely lose that thought when it concerns non-muslims.
Back on topic do you think murder for a perceived insult is in accordance with islamic teaching or is it is morally reprehensible? Scifes thinks it's a noble and required act.
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Tom Alters was born and raised in USA, is a xian and speaks and reads Urdu fluently, AND without accent.No, not really rcscwc.
If you had been born in Ancient Greece and spoke modern English and worshiped Ron Hubbard (pbuh), now that, that would be weird.
However, if you were born in modern America and was a Scientologist and worshiped Xenu, now that would be a little weird, but no where nearly as weird as the first example
However, if you were born in modern America to a family of whose religion was Scientology, and you were a Scientologist, and worshiping the Alien Overlord Xenu was a part of your fiath - now that would not be surprising at all.
Why? Because most people believe in the Gods (and or Alien Overlords) they are taught to believe in.
It isn't a coincidence children speak to their parents in the same language.
Back on topic.
Offffffffff with his head!
Offffffffff with his head!
I was thinking more along the lines of SAM's last sentence: Then they missed the whole point.:scratchin:
couldn't say it better.
if the correctness of one's understanding of the whole point of islam directly proportional to how much one reads the quran, then....:shrug:
What is that point? I mean, is it to read MORE of the Qur'an!?!?? Study harder? What, 1400s year wasn't enough deliberation? What if it's better not to read the Qur'an? I mean, it's seems they (as well as SAM) are both falling into the illogical trap of Appeal to Authority (aka the Qur'an).
The Japanese seemed to have built a modern society without any instruction from the Qur'an at all. Not a perfect society, as that doesn't exist, but a successful good one given their small and meager land and resources.
I have a friend that was born in Iran and speaks fluent Japanese. He can of course speak fluent Farsi to his mother. It would be odd if he couldn't - wouldn't you agree?
My point is that Ja'far is Shia Muslim because he was raised to be a Shia Muslim (which is true whether he realized this or not - but he does seem to). It "makes sense" because the neural pathways that give him a "feeling" of "sense" were wired for him during his childhood - and have nothing to due to with his studies. Just as Farsi intuitively "makes sense" - that also was wired for him and he had no say in that either.
SAM blames the Europeans for the Taliban blowing up those 2500 year old Buddhist statues.
Unlike Muslims in Pakistan, I never did see Buddhist pissing on Afghan flags? I wonder why? I mean, it wasn't even a threat. They blow those f*ckers up. Given a number of Buddhists live in poor societies with hardship, I'd say it must have something to do with Buddhism actually being a religion of peace - rather than just saying it is.
News Flash: Dali Lama called for Beheading of Afghan Politician
Seem utterly ridiculous doesn't it?
You're not taking into account reality here. At one point in time I did question my faith, it was then I began reading about Sunnism, Sufism, Baha'i, even Judaism (at one point). I also thought and questioned my belief in Deity and religion all together (read: Atheism). Not mentioning what I have experinced within my relatively short liftetime. Also, not mentioning my extensive adventures in psychonautics.
At any given time, given my access to information and general life experinces I could have went in any number of places in terms of spirituality. Also, even in any given time period and in any given place, even when in the area X religion is predominent you still can't assume all of X is X. There is those whom aren't religious and don't necessarily believe but are X culturally. Theologically you can't call these people X if they niether believe and or practice the faith and holidays, weddings and funerals don't count mind you. In very few cases can this not be said. I think this view reflects the reality of religion more so than your assumptions.
:bugeye:
How is that in any way different than you reading the Qur'an SAM?!?
For one thing, the Quran does not prescribe the death sentence for blasphemy.
In fact, the Quran itself claims to be a Reminder, a reiteration of what has always been known to all peoples. And the only recommendation given for those who blaspheme is to leave them to God. So whats the difference between myself and a cleric who claims that there should be a death sentence for blasphemy? I actually read the Quran.For one thing, the Quran does not prescribe the death sentence for blasphemy.
Face.
How else would you explain the extremely strong correlation between the faith of the parent and the faith of the child?
Sure, there are some exceptions, but, overwhelmingly children take the faith of their family. SO much so that some Muslims say you're "born Muslim". Jews are thought of as a "race".
Amish children are kind of kicked out of the community when they're 18 years old. Not all Amish, but many Amish. They want their kids to go out and experience the "real" world and "freely" choose to come back and live life like it's the year 1800. The overwhelming majority "freely" choose to come back.
IMO your feeling of having a "choice" in your faith was actually illusion. You "choice" the religion of your community. It "made sense" to you. Just as "Shinto and Buddhist faiths" makes sense to the majority of Japanese. Just as "Scientology" makes sense to people born into a family of Scientologists.
Right now there are people who were born into Mormon families in Utah, they have the "freedom" to serf the net, check out other faiths, yet MOST chose to be Mormon. How would you explain that? Do you really think they had total "freedom" to pick their faith? If so then explain WHY most choose to be Mormon.
No True Scotsman Fallacy right off the bat SAM?For one thing, the Quran does not prescribe the death sentence for blasphemy.
Oh, I can promise you the Imam's read the Qur'an as much, if not more so, than you SAM. It's just the the Qur'an is so vague it can mean pretty much anything. Anyway, that wasn't my point, my point was that while you and the Cleric may have a minor difference in your interpretation of the Qur'an - you both are making the same logical fallacy of Argument from Authority.
By the way, do you think "Islamic" societies are morally superior, inferior or equivalent to, say, Hindu or Shinto societies? Has following the precepts of the Qur'an led to a better life for most people or a less free lower quality of life for Muslims? Sure Communism says it for equality, and people can preach that Communists aren't "reading and following the Manifesto" - but, in the end, society is the measure and Communism doesn't make a very good one.
Jaf'ar one other question: Is homosexuality Islamic? I'm just wondering if during all of your studies you came to the correct "moral" conclusion or not.
superstring01
Moderator
Homosexuality is irrelevant to your version of Islam.
But--and why do I feel deja vu--to the vast majority of Muslims, especially those respected clerics that have masses swallowing their every word--homosexuality is anathema to Islam. In fact, in every Islamic nation on earth, it'll get ya' imprisoned (at the very least) and possibly executed in a good number of them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
As much as it is Islamic and Christian.
~String
Its been put to the test.
http://filmsthatchangetheworld.vswe...Outs-Himself-to-Muslim-Scholars-at-Conference
Its irrelevant.
http://filmsthatchangetheworld.vswe...Outs-Himself-to-Muslim-Scholars-at-Conference
Its irrelevant.
superstring01
Moderator
Tell that to the clerics in, say, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, Egypt or Malaysia. Lemme know how that works out.
~String
I think the problem with oppression is as much of people accepting oppression as it is of people oppressing, if more homosexuals challenged the scholars and spoke out against it, it may not change the laws overnight but they would be hard pressed to blame it on Islam.
superstring01
Moderator
People often times think that certain things can come about in strange orders.
In our world, the government must first be liberalized and more accountable to the people (well, in theory, at least). It then can become more humane to that society. Only when the government cannot arrest people for random offenses and lob their heads off in the town square, can things like homosexual rights be demanded safely by gay people who would otherwise risk life and limb for outing themselves..
But, let's not put the cart before the horse.
First, a liberal society and--perhaps--due process. Then. . . perhaps a little later. . . the gays can start dancing through Riyadh in Speedos, chiffon and silver stilettos, waiving flags with a crescent moon embroidered over a rainbow background.
~String
We have to put the cart before the horse. People have to empower themselves, because self determination and sovereignty will not be attained under puppet dictators and kings.