muslim and beard?

[PsychoticEpisode]

Whoa! Ziad just sent me the most warmest, peaceful PM you've ever read. He really does exhibit the true Muslim. Peaceful. Warm. Nice.

Well, it is Valentine's Day. You lucky devil.

 

[j.a.g]

wow, i thought that u don't understand the hadith, but now im sure that u didn't understand the quran either..... why u didn't quote some scholar's explanation of the quran, cus simply i don't trust ur explanation of the quran while u r liar, cheater, and above all u DON't KNOW ARABIC


BTW, next time search about another translation, cus ur translation is so bad, or maybe u used it cus it help ur ignoble target

i dont concider those scholars as my fathers like you.im sorry. I have my own brain,and i can STUDY and understand whats right or wrong for me.and be able to show the sources.

if my translation is bad,u can show us .

these scholars dont have more knowledge because of their beards.
i can see what they thought you,to lie against the qoran,to give wrong explainations about the qoran.

good you sent Q a message,i really hope u can learn sumthing from him.honesty is an unique attribute,and EVERYONE can have that,muslim or not.

salah is translated as prayer,as u stated.what is the rootmeaning of this word?

im only discussing facts with you,not opinions .your scholars are God to you,thats why your prevented to use your own brain.

9.31

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah,translation yusuf ali

waiting for you to answer.
happy valentine

 

[j.a.g]

wow, i thought that u don't understand the hadith, but now im sure that u didn't understand the quran either..... why u didn't quote some scholar's explanation of the quran, cus simply i don't trust ur explanation of the quran while u r liar, cheater, and above all u DON't KNOW ARABIC


BTW, next time search about another translation, cus ur translation is so bad, or maybe u used it cus it help ur ignoble target

lol

yusuf ali 31.6

6. Wamina alnnasi man yashtaree lahwa alhadeethi liyudilla AAan sabeeli Allahi bighayri AAilmin

His translation:

But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path

Here he translated the word hadith to Tale.


4.87

Allahu la ilaha illa huwa layajmaAAannakum ila yawmi alqiyamati la rayba feehi waman asdaqu mina Allahi hadeethan


Who can tell you a more reliable Hadith than God?

yusuf ali translated the word hadit to word

"And whose word can be truer than God's?"


7.185.


Awalam yanthuroo fee malakooti alssamawati waal-ardi wama khalaqa Allahu min shay-in waan AAasa an yakoona qadi iqtaraba ajaluhum fabi-ayyi hadeethin baAAdahu yu/minoona


In what Hadith after this (Qur’an) are they going to believe then?
yusuf ali tranlsated it to :

In what message after this will they then believe?

now?

 

[j.a.g]

now,what is the root meaning of Salah,and what does it mean?
alsow answer to me previous questions

Thank you

 

[Z7575]

maybe "jag", i should start from the beginning, because i get tired from your posts, while you suppose work to spread the word of allah here, you decide to be the orientalist's trumpet, propagandize their stupid arguments and false suspicion, while the worthier was to debate this issue in islamic forum not in SCI forum, if u realy want to learn and share the knowledge with "your" brothers ....

BUT NO you decide to sign up in sciforum and propagate your naivety !, and guess what, you didn't obtain nothing.

so for that reasons i will start from the beginning, when you asked the members, why muslim have beard, i thought the you were asking about evidence from the quran or the sunna, but NO you were ASTUTELY asking to debate about something else, about why muslims advance the sunna as an argument, while -as you said- we can't be sure of sunna, if the hadith is true or not.....but the problem is, you quoted from the holy quran to confirm your view, you quoted from the quran and explained the ayat as you want, not as allah want, so you start by impugned the sunna, than impugn the explanation of the quran!!!!
so i'm in front of two 'chances', you are stupid muslim or just politic non-muslim !!




look with me:

Why are the prophet sent?

"O Prophet – behold, We have sent thee as a witness [to the truth], and as a herald of glad tidings and a warner, and as one who summons [all human beings] to God by His leave, and as a light-giving beacon." (33: 45-46)

"Now [as for thee, O Muhammad,] We have not sent thee otherwise than to humankind at large, to be a herald of glad tidings and a warner; but most people do not understand [this]." (34:28)

"Say: [O Muhammad]: "O humankind! Verily, I am a Messenger of God to all of you, [sent by Him] unto whom the dominion over the heavens and the earth belongs." (7:158)

"And [thus O Prophet,] We sent thee as [an evidence of Our] grace towards all the worlds." (21: 107)

ITs clear why he was sent,And how did u use the quran ?

While if u study carefully the holy quran u will find another aya explain why allah send the prophet, "to EXPLAIN" and "TEACH" ....

allah said:

"كما أرسلنا فيكم رسولا منكم يتلو عليكم آياتنا ويزكيكم ويعلمكم الكتاب والحكمة ويعلمكم ما لم تكونوا تعلمون"
"A similar (favour have ye already received) in that we have sent among you and apostle of your own, rehearsing to you our signs; and sanctifying you, and instructing you in scripture and wisdom, and in new knowledge."

So allah send the prohpet to TEACH us the holy book and the WISDOM, what allah meant by wisdom, tafsir aljalalyn said, it's the wisdom of the holy book. but how could the prophet teach us ??
isn't by his words, his acts, which we refer to it by this word "ASUNNA " !!???


BUT no you was thinking about how to show mohammed(saw) as someone with personal agenda, trying to spread his own religion, by order us to create new worships !!, so you asked me

Ziad,quran said it xplain everything,then why didnt it give the order of 5 time prayer ?

until this moment i didn't be sure of what you worked for, so i give you a hadith, but as i see later you didn't want to see hadith, u want to say that mohammed create new religion !!??
while if you read the Qu'ran carefully, he will read these ayat:

"أقم الصلاة لدلوك الشمس إلى غسق الليل وقرآن الفجر إن قرآن الفجر كان مشهودا"
" Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony."[17:78]


"وأقم الصلاة طرفي النهار وزلفا من الليل إن الحسنات يذهبن السيئات ذلك ذكرى للذاكرين"
" And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: for those things that are good remove those that are evil: be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):"[11:114]

"حافظوا على الصلوات والصلاة الوسطى وقوموا لله قانتين"
So allah told us how many prayers we should pray in each day, but for me and for any one didn't live with the prophet, didn't learn from his wisdom, i don't understand these ayat, so i should read the scholar's explanation and the prophets hadith, to make good understanding of what did allah meant ......


but why you played by the words, cus u want to say:

it mean EVEN the phrophet CANT declare anything as haraam(unlawful) or halaal(lawful),even tho the hadith claim its the sayin of the prophet.

well, as i know, no one said that the prophet " declare anything as haraam(unlawful) or halaal(lawful) without god's will", even the prophet didn't said, "i can declare anything allah called it as haraam(unlawful) or halaal(lawful) without god's will,

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper"[7:157]

so why u quoted this aya, and didn't give us an example !!

The qoran call itself "Tibyaanan li Kulli Shaiyin (16:89)-wich means : ITS EXPLAIN EVERYTHING.

If u think the phrophets act is not in the quran,then what is in the quran?how could He judge according to the quran,if the quran dont have the rules of daily life? how could he solve human differneces according to the qoran ,if the formula is not in it?Why would the qoran call itself tabyaan li kulli shaiyin,if it cant explain the phrophets life?

think ajg, do u want from allah to say 1+1=2, or to say the speed of light is 300,000 km in sec !, is that what u mean by saying"Why would the qoran call itself tabyaan li kulli shaiyin,if it cant explain the phrophets life?", do u mean that the quran should teach us how to go to bed with our wifes, or how to relieve nature, maybe u want from the quran to teach us the full hsitory of the world, or teach us the mathematical theory !!!

quran meant by this aya that the quran will explain ever thing of related to Sharia, quran like a "constitution", "guidebook" that u will know any hting by it, we will know why people when don't know something about Sharia, they ask scholars[16:43]
"فاسألوا أهل الذكر إن كنتم لا تعلمون"
quran will guide us, to follow the prophet and obay him:[24:52]
"ومن يطع الله ورسوله ويخش الله ويتقه فأولئك هم الفائزون "
Quran will teach us what "Shura/الشورى" mean, what "gihad/الجهاد" mean, but we still need practical applying, to see the quran life between the people, and whom better than the prophet to be real materialization of Quran? , who will know the quran better than rasullullah? and for that we study the sunna, cus it show us what quran mean....

In early publications, we find the ahadith of the Messenger, the sayings of confereesR and declarations of tabaeenR are all together. The later generations began to compile the ahadith of Messenger separately. These compilations are named Musnid e Hind. The first Musnid was written in early third century by Abdullah bin Moosa. After him followed, Musdood Basri, Asad bin Moosa, Naeem bin hamad and others. These were followed by the next generations. For example, Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal, Is’haaq bin Rahu’via, Uthman bin abi Shay’ba and others. In the fourth category comes Imam BokhariR (died hijra 252), who attempted to compile only the genuine ahadith. After him, followed his student Imam Muslim Nishapuri (died hijra 261). Both of these scholar’s books are named ‘Sahiheen.’ Following these books, the writing of ahadith became a popular occupation among hadithists.

BLAH BLAH BLAH......a hadith's lesson from someone don't know anything about hadith,what this irony!!!
because how could some some claim that he know what hadith science, and what men layers , طبقات الرجال, to forget when does bukhary die, while every teenager had some hadith lesson in the closer masjed he will know thet albukhary died at 256 H, and for ur info what should i understand from this statmen, u didn't write any thing new, just reloaded what ever one know, of course except some worng info like the mistake about albukhary above ....look
-there are two men related the hadith were their name:Abdullah bin Musa...
*Abdullah bin Musa Bin Shaiba alansary
*Abdullah bin Musa bin Ibrahim bin Muhammed bin talha bin abid allah alqurashy ...and bothe of them are from atbae altabean/اتباع التابعين
-i didn't hear about any one his name musdood basri, so can u just tell me any hadith related by him ??
or maybe u meant mosaddad albasri !
-Asad bin Musa bin Ibrahim bin alwalid is from sighar atbae altabean/صغار اتباع التابعين
-i didn't heare about any one his name " Naeem bin hamad" just like "musdood basri" so youare in fron of the same question
or maybe u meant naeem bin hammad !

So what u think ur self scoring here by this words ?

All kinds of ahadith, of which there is no number now, came to be written. What needs to be investigated here, is the fact, if ahadith were divinely ordained, then Messenger himself and his conferees, would not have categorically prohibited the writing of it. On the contrary they would have made every attempt to preserve the ahadith.

yeah, it seem u didn't read the history of islam or even the history or hadith writing, cus the prophet oreder the umma to stop writing the hadith at first, to teach them the quran, and to avoidance the mixing between the quran and the hadith, while as u know arab hadn't the technique of writing in past, so they were wrote the quran and hadith on the fronds and many other thing, so the prophet order them for fear that they will mix between the sunna and between the quran, after that he allow to the sahaba to wrote the hadith ...back to musnad ahmad, hadith number 6221 or 6511, sunan aby daoud hadith number 3161 the hadith is :

حدثنا يحيى بن سعيد عن أبي مالك يعني عبيد بن الأخنس حدثني الوليد بن عبد الله عن يوسف بن ماهك عن عبد الله بن عمرو قال
كنت أكتب كل شيء أسمعه من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أريد حفظه فنهتني قريش عن ذلك وقالوا تكتب ورسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول في الغضب والرضا فأمسكت حتى ذكرت ذلك لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال اكتب فوالذي نفسي بيده ما خرج منه إلا حق

~~

Let me point out,shia sunni hadith,both sects hadith writer were IRANIAN,and not arabian.

one example of explaining the quran throug hadith.

Quran defines Allah as:

(57:3)

“God is beyond the limitations of time.”

These words are so clear and explicit, one does not have any problem in understanding them—

“He is the first and he is the last!” whereas we find in the collection of Trimidhi, A lengthy explanation of this ayaat by Abu Huraira, the concise summary of which is:

“The Holy Messenger said that the distance between earth and sky is five hundred years of journey. And the distance between two skies is also the same. Now there are seven skies in all, the distance between the seventh sky and heaven is also five hundred years of journey. In the same way there is an earth beneath this earth, which is also five hundred years of journey. And there are seven earths. The distance between every two is also the same... After that the Messenger said, ‘He is the first and he is the last!’

Can it, by any means be claimed as the words of Messenger Muhammad?

what ".........." should mean to us !!
maybe the "........" i ncluded what the prophet meant ???
maybe the "..........." will tell us the meaining of aya !!!!
is it your job to think isnted of people !!, is it your way to think, so you figure out that "...." don't mean nothing, so u abbreviate the words !
do you want from me to write the rest of hadith !!!
and at last why you cuted the aya, and write the half of it, is that what the quran teach you .....
"He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent: and He has full knowledge of all things."
so from the half which you cuted, and the part which you abbreviated, what should i know about you way of see and read and of course your way of "STUDY" and "show the sources"

Let me point out,shia sunni hadith,both sects hadith writer were IRANIAN,and not arabian.

and what if the writers were furs, whats the problem !, wasn't arabic the native language of them, what is your point and what should i figure out from your hadith, sorry from your word, or why shoud i apologize isn't hadith refer to "words" or "speech" in arabic !!!

In the first gospel of Abu HurairaR, we read in Trimidhi, the path from one sky to the other is five hundred years. In the same Trimidhi it is stated, the Messenger saying, the distance between two skies is 71 or 72 or 73 years. The glaring contradiction is very clearly obvious!

well, did you STUDIED these ahadith, what if these ahadith were not tru !
what if the prophet said its 500 years, every time, but the men who related the ahafith make the mistake .
why you didn't quoted from bukhary !
why you always quote from assunan of almusnad !
cus when i STUDIED those ahadith, i see that the men are so weak when its about relate the hadith, even with the explanation, we can't take the part of the distance in our dogma .....
so i'm waiting from you to show us, if sahih albukhary included ahadith like thses one .

The later story, that there are seven skies, on top of the seventh sky is an ocean; on the ocean are seven ibexes. And on the backs of these ibexes is the heaven. This is an explanation of the following ayaat from Quran, wherein is stated:

The Quran says:

(21:30)

“We have created every living creature from water.”


Meaning, life initiated from water and is dependent on water also. Life cannot sustain itself without water. The intrinsic resource of life is water. The later ayaat therefore means, that God has absolute control over water. In other words, God has complete authority and control on the primary source of life.

This was the truth that has been explained in Quran. And we also read, narrated in Trimidhi, its explanation attributed to MuhammadPBUH.

Now you can decide for your self, can it be claimed, in any way, as the explanation given by the Messenger?

if errors like that can occure in a "authentic" hadith,then we would need the qoran,wich came to eliminate ALL doubts.

Zalikal kitabun la raiba .....

there is NO doubt in this book.

1- the hadith number 3242 which include" 71 or 72 or 73 years" is the explation of suret alhaqa [69] in the sunnan alTrimidhi book
2-the hadit number 3220 which incluede " five hundred years" is in the explation of suret alhadid [57]in the sunnan Trimidhi book ... while the aya is in souret alanbyaa[12] !!! so who told you that the prophert explained the aya by this hadith ???????
give me one explanation from reliable source, include what you said !??, because when i read some of qurand explanations of this aya, i didn't see the scholars refer to this hadith, WHY ?
3-why you cuted the aya ?, maybe the rest of aya included what the prophet meant because as i see when i read the rest of it, its about the skies and the earth, so maybe the prophet spoke about the rest not about the half which i post.....

1) Ablution
/ghusol
.......
........
..........
its quite simple,ablution is needed if u cant do ghussol,and cleainig all of u in ghussol doesnt need a a recipe.if people use their brains,they will find out,only those parts are required to be clean before salah,wich is exposed to dust,pullotiion etc.

i've wrote a post about this naive post .....previously

Are obeying Allah and obeying the Prophet two separate duties; one through the Quran and the other through the hadith? Or, are these two merged into one obedience?

maybe u don't know but if obay the prophet u indeed obay the god
"ومن يطع الله ورسوله ويخش الله ويتقه فأولئك هم الفائزون "
" It is such as obey God and His Apostle, and fear God and do right, that will win (in the end)."[24:52]

We mostly concentrate on the Prophet’s Sunnah related to his private and family life and to religious rituals and practices. We ignore or evade the larger issues of Sunnah, which affected humanity. If we look beyond our comfort zones, we will see large-scale human suffering, humiliation, exploitation, subjugation, torture and discrimination. Our prayers and rituals alone will not solve this massive human problem, nor will our charities and fund raising make a dent in it. Remember, we can recognize a tree by its fruits. What fruits have we Muslims reaped from the tree of Islam for the last 1300 years, or, for that matter, for the last 20 years, other than humiliation, subjugation, and discrimination?

how said that, we don't concentrate on the private life of the prophet, we also focus on the whole history of his life, to know how should we life this live, how should we fill with life.... how to make the life more bright........So No one say whe should not look beyond our comfort zones .

we divided ourself into sects:

“As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, you (Muhammad) have no part in them in the least.” (6:159)

actual meanin of : follow the messenger is :

He releases them ( all human beings) from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light (i.e., the Quran) which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.” (7:157)

NO, we didn't, but people like you, prefer to be irregular, decide to attack the whole umma by words like these...
and guess what, next time (copy) the whole aya, don't (copy) a part a leave a part of it.....you know what i'm talking about, or you don't ?
because you ignored this part
"الذين يتبعون الرسول النبي الأمي الذي يجدونه مكتوبا عندهم في التوراة والإنجيل يأمرهم بالمعروف وينهاهم عن المنكر ويحل لهم الطيبات ويحرم
عليهم الخبآئث"

do you want from me to translate it for you, or you understand what it mean...... no, you don't !
So i will ...:
"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. "[7:157]
again, is this ur whay to "study", "understand" and "show the sources"

The namaz is not even written in the qoran,the word is a phalvi word from farsi,persian. zorostrians use to do namaaz 5 times a day,and slaat is wrongly translated as namaaz,but namaaz is not same as salat. if u want me to explain,i can do it. this was too long mayb,im sorry

NO comment....
"وأقيموا الصلاة وآتوا الزكاة واركعوا مع الراكعين "
" wa aqymu assalat wa atru azzakat...... "
" And by steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your head with those who bow down (in worship)."[2:43]

"إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة وهم راكعون "
"........ alazyna yuqmuna assalat ......."
"Your (real) friends are (no less than) God, his apostle, and the (fellowship of) believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)."[5:55 ]

So can you explain -pleas-what "namaz " mean ???

what is knowledge? The Quran says,

“Do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. The hearing and sight and the heart—all of them shall have to answer whether personal inquiry was made concerning the matter.” (17/36)

i didn't found any link between what is knowledge? and between the aya, because allah order us in this aya to don't "pursue" what we don't know, what we haven't a knowledge about it, so what whe should understand from this aya?
we should learn and make make sure of what we don't know, because allah will ask us of what we used our senses for ?
back to aljalalyn,or ibn kathyer

"قال علي بن أبي طلحة، عن ابن عباس: يقول: لا تقل.
وقال العوفي عنه: لا تَرْم أحدًا بما ليس لك به علم.
وقال محمد بن الحَنفية: يعني شهادة الزور.
وقال قتادة: لا تقل: رأيت، ولم تر، وسمعت، ولم تسمع، وعلمت، ولم تعلم؛ فإن الله سائلك عن ذلك كله.
ومضمون ما ذكروه: أن الله تعالى نهى عن القول بلا علم، بل بالظن الذي هو التوهم والخيال، كما قال تعالى: { اجْتَنِبُوا كَثِيرًا مِنَ الظَّنِّ إِنَّ بَعْضَ الظَّنِّ إِثْمٌ } [ الحجرات: 12 ]، وفي الحديث: "إياكم والظن؛ فإن الظن أكذبُ الحديث" . وفي سنن أبي داود: "بئس مطيةُ الرجل: زعموا" ، وفي الحديث الآخر: "إن أفرى الفِرَى أن يُرِي عينيه ما لم تريا" . وفي الصحيح: "من تحلم حلما كُلف يوم القيامة أن يعقد بين شَعيرتين، وليس بعاقد .
وقوله: { كُلُّ أُولَئِكَ } أي: هذه الصفات من السمع والبصر والفؤاد { كَانَ عَنْهُ مَسْئُولا } أي: سيسأل العبد عنها يوم القيامة، وتُسأل عنه وعما عمل فيها. ويصح استعمال "أولئك" مكان "تلك"، كما قال الشاعر .
ذُمَّ المَنَازلَ بَعْدَ مَنزلة اللِّوَى ... وَالْعَيْش بَعْدَ أولئِكَ الأيّام ...​

" from the ibn kathyer's explanation of the quran
(next time don't explain the quran from ur self, ignorant)

The Quranic concept of knowledge is objective and the knowledge of the non-ego is superior to that of the ego. The revelation of the Quran marked the birth of inductive intellect. Inductive reason alone allows the human being to become master of his/her environment. Islam has created and fostered the spirit of critical observation of outer experience by divesting the forces of nature of that divine character with which the earlier culture had clothed them. The important thing to note is that the Quran, for purposes of knowledge, fixes its gaze on the concrete and finite. It is also abundantly clear that the birth of the method of observation and experimental science in Islam was due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it.

blah blah blah .......you just play by words to help your target, so nothing important to read !

This is your way of thinking............
....................
them are "pure"

i've wrote a post about this statmet also, so i don't wan't to waste my time AGAIN !

please do me a favour and answer this: what is in the qoran?

maybe the bible but with new name and new ver, i don't know u tell me ..........because if u asked any one from the street he will answer with the same answer, god's words, which wrote in the kept board/alluh almahfuzand inspirated to mohammed as a holy book"Quran"

What did the prophet used the quran for?

maybe u should change the question, because the prophet didn't "used" the quran, but the god of the prophet and the quran "used" the prophet, the prophet didn't had a agenda, and used the quran to get his target !!!

prove the hadith's to be TRUE.

how do you know your hadith are right,when a shia can come up with his own hadith's.

just read my post about prophet's words " hadith "

Why did Allah give us the quran?
tell me some of the main carachters of the qoran?
how is a law defined in the quran?

well read this aya "الذين يتبعون الرسول النبي الأمي الذي يجدونه مكتوبا عندهم في التوراة والإنجيل يأمرهم بالمعروف وينهاهم عن المنكر ويحل لهم الطيبات ويحرم عليهم الخبآئث ويضع عنهم إصرهم والأغلال التي كانت عليهم فالذين آمنوا به وعزروه ونصروه واتبعوا النور الذي أنزل معه أولئك هم المفلحون"
"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." [7:157]

i know that this aya not the answer of your questions, but of course the answer of the next questions, that you will ask me after you get my answers, so i abbreviate the way, very smart, i know !!!!
while we believe that quran is legislative source, the first "legislative source", we also consider sunna as second source, cus the prophet teach us and explain what we didnt know "كما أرسلنا فيكم رسولا منكم يتلو عليكم آياتنا ويزكيكم ويعلمكم الكتاب والحكمة ويعلمكم ما لم تكونوا تعلمون", " A similar (favour have ye already received) in that we have sent among you and apostle of your own, rehearsing to you our signs; and sanctifying you, and instructing you in scripture and wisdom, and in new knowledge."[2:151]

why do we need another lawbook,when qoran tell us EVERYTHING is explained in the qoran?

we don't, who told u that we need such these books, the quran indeed tell us every thing !
he told and explain every thing from "general theory of relativity" to the full history of the world from the beginning to the Judgment Day ...
is that what you understand from this words "EVERYTHING is explained in the qoran "!!
well i don't know how some lazy people want from one book, event if it was a "holy" to explain every thing !!!, maybe cus those people don't have the mind to know that the meaning of these word may refer to some thing like "equation" with some keys !!
in some place the god order us to pay the zakat, in the same place to establish the prayer, put he didn't told us how to pray or how to pay the zakat, he give us insted of that a key, "He who obeys the apostle, obeys God: but if any turn away, we have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)."[4:80] and the same "man" the same"apostle" said i will teach u how to pay zakat, how to pray !!
so could we ask our self why the quran didn't told us how to pray, or even to ask, isn't the quran explained everything !!!!!!!!!!!!!

how did the hadith explain the qoran? show me some aya's "

how to pay the zakat?
how to pray ?
the quran didn't explain to us cus he said in other place
" A similar (favour have ye already received) in that we have sent among you and apostle of your own, rehearsing to you our signs; and sanctifying you, and instructing you in scripture and wisdom, and in new knowledge."
but the peophet explained !, and teach us ....

again, how u pray, and how many times ineach day !!!!!!!!!!????????????

ahhhh S.A.M,thank you

4.87

Allahu la ilaha illa huwa layajmaAAannakum ila yawmi alqiyamati la rayba feehi waman asdaqu mina Allahi hadeethan

Who can tell you a more reliable Hadith (saying) than God?


7.185.

Awalam yanthuroo fee malakooti alssamawati waal-ardi wama khalaqa Allahu min shay-in waan AAasa an yakoona qadi iqtaraba ajaluhum fabi-ayyi hadeethin baAAdahu yu/minoona

In what Hadith after this (Qur’an) are they going to believe then?

"الله لا إله إلا هو ليجمعنكم إلى يوم القيامة لا ريب فيه ومن أصدق من الله حديثا"
"God there is no God but he (allah): of a surety he will gather you together against the day of judgment, about which there is no doubt. and whose word can be truer than God's?" [4:87]

"أولم ينظروا في ملكوت السماوات والأرض وما خلق الله من شيء وأن عسى أن يكون قد اقترب أجلهم فبأي حديث بعده يؤمنون"
"Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (do they not see) that it may well be that their term in nigh drawing to an end? in what message after this will they then believe?" [7:185]

I get surprised when i saw this statmen !!, whom u think ur self dealing with, some forum teenagers !, or blind religious nust ??

how could u do something like that, cut the half of aya, them explain and translat the other half, U CAN't do that, cus by ur work u like whom say فويل للمصلين/fa waylun ly musalin/ So woe to the worshippers, then quiet, u should explain the whole aya and of course for what this aya be revealed !!

cus as i know these ayat didn't disparage from the rasulullah HADITH, it's so clear for any one know arabic !!!, but if oppose, just go to any explanation of the QURAN and tell me what did u found, don't forget again !



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hadith means the supposed sayings of the exalted Prophet collected through hearsay centuries after him. Using these two ’sources’ for translating or explaining the Qur’an in the distant and recent past has only served to confound the Word of God with manmade traditions and it takes away the profound Glory of the Divine Message.

okay so the hadith "supposed sayings of the exalted Prophet", my dear the hadith already includ the word of the prophet, u should read more about how the musliem colected the ahadith, and what is the history of it !!, it's not hadith problem if you are so ignorant ..

One: The Qur’an explains itself. [6:115, 10:37, 75:17-19]

well, maybe you were so quickly wheil reading these ayat, or maybe while skim through your book which you take the suspicions from it, because if you crutinize in these ayat, and knew what does it mean, you wouldn't refer to it ...

look and the aya number 37 from the sourah number 10...allah said :
"الر تلك آيات الكتاب الحكيم"
"A. L. R. these are the Ayats of the book of wisdom"
while the same god-allah- said in the same holy book- Qur'an-
"ربنا وابعث فيهم رسولا منهم يتلو عليهم آياتك ويعلمهم الكتاب والحكمة ويزكيهم إنك أنت العزيز الحكيم "
" Our Lord! send amongst them an apostle of their own, who shall rehearse thy signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: for thou art the exalted in might, the wise."

So how could you explain that !!

Two: It repeats its verses from diverse angles for clear understanding.[17:41, 17:89, 18:54, and quite a few other verses]

"ولقد صرفنا في هذا القرآن ليذكروا وما يزيدهم إلا نفورا"
"We have explained (things) in various (ways) in this Quran, in order that they may receive admonition, but it only increases their flight (from the truth)"[17:41]

"فإنما يسرناه بلسانك لتبشر به المتقين وتنذر به قوما لدا "
"So have we made The (Quran) easy in thine own tongue, That with it thou mayest give glad tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention." [17:89]

"ولقد صرفنا في هذا القرآن للناس من كل مثل وكان الإنسان أكثر شيء جدلا "
"We have explained in detail in this Quran, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in, most things, contentious."[18:54]

i don't know why u quote this ayat, is it to show us how Quran explain every thin, WE KNOW that, we know that quran explain every thing, but we can't understand every thing with the help of prophet, and for that allah said :
"ربنا وابعث فيهم رسولا منهم يتلو عليهم آياتك ويعلمهم الكتاب والحكمة ويزكيهم إنك أنت العزيز الحكيم"
" Our Lord! send amongst them an apostle of their own, who shall rehearse thy signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: for thou art the exalted in might, the wise."[2:129]
teach= يعلم . teach them = يعلمهم but in this translation said scripture cus the orders of allah and the orders of prophet should be obay by muslem,

Three: It has been revealed in the Plain Arabic of its times. [12:2,19:97, 20:113, 39:28, 44:58]

The Prophet(S), who was born and raised in Makkah (Mecca), belonged to the prominent Quraish tribe. Since the Makkans were the first audience,the Qur’an was revealed in their dialect.

It's the first time, i heard that if any holy book revealed in the people language or even dialect., the people will believe in directly, so why the god sent the prophets, just " Mercy for all creatures." isn't teaching the people is from someone infallible a gift from allah, to make them see what islam really mean !!

Some people have divided revelation into two kinds. One is mutloo and the other is ghair mutloo or jalee or khafee. One kind is called Quran, while the other is called hadith

can u give me some ayat, explaint if these words are right ot wrong ?

"These terms are only figments of their imagination that have nothing to do with Quran"
myabe u just can't understand what it mean!, or maybe you have something personal between you and between in hazem, because his the one whom said this words...

"ولو تقول علينا بعض الأقاويل,لأخذنا منه باليمين ,ثم لقطعنا منه الوتين"
" And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name,We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:"[67:44-46]
"ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته لهمت طآئفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء وأنزل الله عليك الكتاب والحكمة وعلمك ما لم تكن تعلم وكان فضل الله عليك عظيما"
" But for the grace of God to thee and his mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. but (in fact) they will only lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. for God hath sent down to thee the book and wisdom and taught thee what thou knewest not (before): and great is the grace of God unto thee."

If ahadith were also revelation, why then were they not written as the Quran?

cus the quran is not only the god words, but it either the words which the god wrote in alluh almahfuz and REVEALED to mohammed as HOLY BOOK OF ALLAH while the hadith is only the prophet words which he said by the revelation of god, mohammed is a infallible, how could human be a infallible if the god didn't inspired to him what should he said or do !
at last, the hadith indeed wrote not as you claim, learn how to study and get sources !

In plenty of ayat, they say, AllahSWT has commanded us to follow the Messenger. How can we follow, unless ahadith are not made part of Deen? Actually, this is the biggest and supreme mistake, because of which ahadith are claimed as Deen(islam)

but whom told u this ridiculous info, ahadith "are not made part of Deen", nehhhhhh ....give me one aya from the quran !

2) Leader: To run the affairs of Ummah according to Quran. Conduct the affairs of administration, take decisions on legal matters, follow through on schemes, execution of collective matters like war and peace, and leading the people through on these. In all these issues, subordination and obedience to Messenger is compulsory.

i don't know from where u take your info, wasn't the prophet rule the umma by his understandig of the quran, of the islam!
why we cant read his history and syra, to know how he understand the quran, or can you undersantd the quran more than him !!
and as i remember he oreder us to follow his sunna, isn't his order emanating from his perfect understanig to the quran ??

After the Messenger, to obey his live representatives, will mean obeying Allah and His Messenger. That does not mean, that any salim or Bakr, whoever refers to his name, can stand up and command submission from us. This type of submission or mental attitude emerged when there was no faithful Caliph left in Islam.

So how could us follow the prophet after he died ??
why allah didn't explain that to us in the quran?

Quran is the only book of faith proclaimed by Allah.

by the understandig of the prophet not ANY one else ....

“And are those people who are buying the occupation of hadith, so they may deviate others from the path of Allah. And make it ludicrous. Hellfire is awaiting them.” (31:6)


(((((In order to defend the ‘Imams’ of Hadith, some commentators try to explain away Lahwal Hadith as music. This obviously makes no linguistic or contextual sense)))))

-did u understand the quran and islam more than IBN abbass and other sahaba and tabieen, more than whom explain the quran.... u should call me, cus i will name u a "saint" or just "HOLY MAN" wow
-is " Lahwal Hadith" refer to the prophets words ?, what hadith mean in arabic, what "lahu" mean in arabic ?
is the translator translated this aya like what i see, or some one else make a little changes ??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ziad:

What do you think of the Prophets injunction to his companions to burn any traditions they wrote down?

All kinds of ahadith, of which there is no number now, came to be written. What needs to be investigated here, is the fact, if ahadith were divinely ordained, then Messenger himself and his conferees, would not have categorically prohibited the writing of it. On the contrary they would have made every attempt to preserve the ahadith.

first of all, as i said we should study every hadith by it self - alone- to know if this hadith is sahih/صحيح, hasan/حسن, daef/ضعيف, oe even maouea/موضوع...
and as i said, we should study the "assana" and "almaten"
i will study the sanad first...
hadith number 10670 in musnad imam ahmad :
alsanad
حدثني إسحاق بن عيسى حدثنا عبد الرحمن بن زيد عن أبيه عن عطاء بن يسار عن أبي هريرة قال
hadathany ishaq bin issa hadathana abdu arrhman bin zaid an abih an ataa bin yasar an aby hurayra

but ishaq bin issa is daef /ضعيف, thats what ibn hajar, alzahaby, abu zoraa, and most of hadith scholars said ...
now we should

so this hadith is not sahih cus the sanad doesnot RELATED by العدل الضابط , so why u didn't quoted from sahih muslim hadith number 5326 , the prophet said "لا تكتبوا عني ومن كتب عني غير القرآن فليمحه وحدثوا عني ولا حرج ومن كذب علي قال همام أحسبه قال متعمدا فليتبوأ مقعده من النار" but as we know from the history of syra, and the history of prophet and islam, rasulluallah said this words while the islam was in the beginning, as i said ", to teach them the quran, and to avoidance the mixing between the quran and the hadith, while as u know arab hadn't the technique of writing in past, so they were wrote the quran and hadith on the fronds and many other thing, so the prophet order them for fear that they will mix between the sunna and between the quran, after that he allow to the sahaba to wrote the hadith ...back to musnad ahmad, hadith number 6221 or 6511, sunan aby daoud hadith number 3161

i dont concider those scholars as my fathers like you.im sorry

"ومن الناس والدواب والأنعام مختلف ألوانه كذلك إنما يخشى الله من عباده العلماء إن الله عزيز غفور "
"And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear God, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for God is Exalted in Might Oft Forgiving"[35:28]

I have my own brain,and i can STUDY and understand whats right or wrong for me.and be able to show the sources.

yeah, i saw how u "show the sources", how u "STUDY " and "understand " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

these scholars dont have more knowledge because of their beards.
-i can see what they thought you,to lie against the qoran,to give wrong explainations about the qoran.

of course they don't "have more knowledge because of their beards." but cus they read the quran and understand it, and cus they read the sunna, and the syra of mohammed, and guess what, no one liar here except a one !!
- maybe u should calm down, or just take your medicine, if zoloft didn't work i can give you another prescription !!, not because you are dispirited and don't know how to debate, but because you start imagine something didn't happend !
i didn't post a lie about holy quran, but you are the one whom cuted and abbreviate the ayat and ahadith, isn't some kind of lie and cheat !
it's you whom cuted, not some one else .... read the rest of my post to know who is lier here ......

wow, from ur post, i thougt u r alama/علامة In arabic language, while as i see NOW, u r some one with some tools give u the ability to COPY and PASTE

anyway, الصلاة = Prayer,
"وأقيموا الصلاة وآتوا الزكاة وأطيعوا الرسول لعلكم ترحمون ",
" So establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey the Apostle; that ye may receive mercy."[24:56]"
-----------------------------------------

Do NOT post lies about the quran.you are free to do that if your not a muslim.
if you only want to win this dicussion,then ill pronounce the winner.you dont want to learn,or debate,you want to show YOUR right,and others are wrong. its ok,but not if u lie about the qoraniq words.

SALAH does NOT mean prayer.refer to the root meaning,find out and you will see the real meaning.

if you lie about the quran ever again,i wont waste my time on you.

mr Q,he is anti-islam/religion,but he is honest.learn sumthing from him.

" And by steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your head with those who bow down (in worship)."[2:43]

" And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: and whatever good ye send froth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with God: for God sees well all that ye do."[2:110]


1- i didn't lie about the quran
2-if you saw any word tranlated badly, you have the right to see what you think, but in the same time you don't have the right to call me a lier while i'm not the one whom translated the quran ..
3-the arabic root of this word"prayer/salat" refer to "invocation/duaa" so the meaning of prayer is invocation, but if the god meant by this word" salat/prayer" the calling, why he used the second word insted of the first, why he didn't used the first word all the time, every aya where he refer to the calling !!!???
[2:171],[3:38],[21:45],[41:49] the god said: da'a/دعا, so why he didn't said pray, while as we know the prayer is "invocation " !!!
why he used this word" salat" is some place, and in other he used " dua'a" ?,
isn't because the god know what this word mean, isn't because the god told us that the prayed indeed an "invocation " but with specific way,
why the god said in another aya[4:102]:

"When thou (O apostle) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, taking their arms with them: when they finish their prostrations, let them take their position in the rear. and let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed and let them pray with thee, taking all precautions, and bearing arms: the unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. but there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. for the unbelievers God hath prepared a humiliating punishment."

so the prayer is "invocation " but with specific way of establish , the translator knew these facts and tranlated the quran in the light of it, the translator should translate the book literally, i know, he should know the language of the book, i know, but if he translated the book literally, the meaning will change, because this word "da'a/دعا/call" have many meaning like "invite", so as i see the translator didn't lie on qoran, he STUDY it, he UNDERSTAND it, then he TRANSLATE it,

but for some one have an agenda, it will not help him, so he explain the aya by the meaning not by the literally, or by what the god meant, in another place you lie on the quran and said the god described the sunna by " idle tales", while as jag knew, the word' hadith' in arabic don't refer to the prophet words, hadith have many meaning, as ,"NEW" or " speech/words/talk" so how could we know what the god meant ?, why u use the arabic root somethime, and don't use it in the rest of your post !

and if allah meant by "prayer" to the "calling" why he used this word " calling " i mean you should do specific motions, read this aya again:

"When thou (O apostle) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, taking their arms with them: when they finish their prostrations, let them take their position in the rear. and let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed and let them pray with thee, taking all precautions, and bearing arms: the unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. but there is no blame on you "[4:102]

So do u want from me to believe that the god order the prophet to do that "prayer/invocation/call" with this motion, just in the war, but in peace u can pray/call without any motion??
and to show the truth yusef ali translated the quran some ny the meaning some time and some time literally, because whom speak arabic as native language will know when we use pray as call and when we don't, with that the translation of yousef is the best as i know ...!

you didn't answer me, how many prayer you pray in each day, and how do you pray !!!??????
how you pay zakat ???

im only discussing facts with you,not opinions .your scholars are God to you

well, my god order me to ask the scholars whom "have knowledge" if i didn't realizeany some thing ...
" And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear God, among His Servants, who have knowledge:"[35:28]
" And before thee also the apostles we sent were but men, to whom we granted inspiration: if ye realize this not, ask of those who possess the message."[16:43]
So, if that what god orders, what should i say !!, i follow god orders literally, not as some people whom read some ayat, cut the half and post the other half, and above all explain the quran as they want not as the god want, for those the god said :
" then is it only a part of the book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? and on the day of judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. for God is not unmindful of what ye do."[2:85]

but why !!
isn't because, you follow your own lusts
"know that they only follow their own lusts: and who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts: and who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts, devoid of guidance from God? for God guides not people given to wrong doing."[28:50]

lol

yusuf ali 31.6

6. Wamina alnnasi man yashtaree lahwa alhadeethi liyudilla AAan sabeeli Allahi bighayri AAilmin

His translation:

But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path

Here he translated the word hadith to Tale.

of course, because allah didn't refered to prophet words which we called it lately ahadith, so yusuf ali knew what the root of this wrd in arabic, and translated in the light of it, not as you claim that yusuf ali call prophet words/ tale ......old game

4.87

Allahu la ilaha illa huwa layajmaAAannakum ila yawmi alqiyamati la rayba feehi waman asdaqu mina Allahi hadeethan


Who can tell you a more reliable Hadith than God?

1- "God there is no God but he: of a surety he will gather you together against the day of judgment, about which there is no doubt. and whose word can be truer than God's?"
2-when u speak with some one about something then say to him, don't believe any word except what i told you, is that mean that u should now believe ANY other word even if it is about something else !!
the god was talking about who is the real god then he spoke about the "day of judgment", then he said "can be truer than God's?"
so to some one don't believe in quran that what he will conclude from the aya .
3-no one said that the sahih albukhary is more reliable book than the quran !
4-its to old game to write the ayas as it pronounce it, just to writ this word" hadith" and imagine to the reader that the god meant the prophets words which we call it "ahadith"

yusuf ali translated the word hadit to word

"And whose word can be truer than God's?"


7.185.


Awalam yanthuroo fee malakooti alssamawati waal-ardi wama khalaqa Allahu min shay-in waan AAasa an yakoona qadi iqtaraba ajaluhum fabi-ayyi hadeethin baAAdahu yu/minoona


In what Hadith after this (Qur’an) are they going to believe then?
yusuf ali tranlsated it to :

In what message after this will they then believe?

now i can say that you post a lie on the quran !!!
in the first time u called me a lier becuse i quoted from translation similarity to yusuf ali one and mybe from his translation, why yusuf ali was a lier, so i was, but now he is not !??????????????
what "hadith" mean in arabic?
is it refer to the prophets words??
what its root of it in arabic,
can you just give me one explanation from reliable source, to you and to me, tell us that allah meant the 'words of prophet' ??
why u explained this aya like what you want, but in another place, u explained the aya in the light of arabic language?
why the god didn't said the hadith of mohammed ? insted of hadith while the god know the language of arabs ?, and knew what does it mean to them ??
~~~
what will u conclude from this aya ?
"The prohibited month for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. if then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. but fear God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves."[2:194]
if some one rape a sister to us - muslimah- , is it lawful to us to rape his sister ?

 

[S.A.M.]

You realise you are confirming j.a.g.'s points?

 

[DiamondHearts]

Ziad, AMAZING POST. mashallah, you make us proud brother.

Unfortunately there are some few numbers of Muslims who use their own mind to teach themselves about Islam without the knowledge of the past or hadith. This is not Islam, as Quran warns us of those who take part of the book and leave the other half.

In this age we need to be wary of people who have little credentials to make such rash judgments about religion, this is the disease of ego, when ego makes us believe we are greater than the Prophet Muhammad, sahabah, tabaeen, or great ulama of the past. Astaghfirallah.

Also, Prophet Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) is the WALKING QURAN. This means he is the main authority of how to view the Quran, because his entire life was revolved around it. Those who were witness to him and lived with know more than us. We should not be so arrogant. Arrogant is a trait of kufr, and indeed the first step toward Jahannum.

Allah swt guide us to the straight path. Forgive our sins and accept us into His rahmat. Ameen.

 

[(Q)]

In this age we need to be wary of people who have little credentials to make such rash judgments about religion, this is the disease of ego

We should be far more wary of people who make claims about religion, most likely the very people you wish to place on a pedestal.

 

[Z7575]

You realise you are confirming j.a.g.'s points?

"So establish regular Prayer ", and in other place said :" وما آتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهو"
"So take what the Apostle assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you",[59:7], so if the prophet explain to us how to pray, is that mean the the quran didn't explain ........ for whom understand the quran, they will know that quran is like constitution and the prophet is the life of it, the prophet is the law !
there is many thing obscure and many other "mansokh" we can't explain the quran from our self, we should study the quran then the history of prophet to make perfect understanding ......
i don't think that jag can understand and explain the quran more than the prophet, not jag not all the quranit whom like him ....
well jag is so foxy, he asked many obscure question, so if i said no the quran didn't explain every thing, like how to prayer for ex, he will say oh no so why the quran siad that he explained, i know that, but i tried to explain that we can't separate between what the prophet said, because the prophet is infallible, and between what the god said ......
the god give us the quran as constitution of our life, and said i will explain every thing u will ask for, i will explain why u should follow the prophet, what should u do in peace or in war, how to trade with muslem or non-muslem, he give us wide lines, he give us the map not as jag try to say .......
and if we understand the quran as jag want from us to do, i think that from his study to quran, he should figure out the whole answers of all questions, like whom assassinated Kennedy !!!!!!

 

[(Q)]

i don't think that jag can understand and explain the quran more than the prophet, not jag not all the quranit whom like him ....

the god give us the quran as constitution of our life, and said i will explain every thing u will ask for, i will explain why u should follow the prophet, what should u do in peace or in war, how to trade with muslem or non-muslem, he give us wide lines, he give us the map not as jag try to say .......

You have your interpretation, jag has his, and every other Muslim has their interpretation. What makes you think your interpretation is more correct than anyone else?

 

[Bells]

Unfortunately there are some few numbers of Muslims who use their own mind to teach themselves about Islam without the knowledge of the past or hadith.

You mean someone is interpreting the text for themselves? Actually thinking for themselves instead of being told what to think?

THE HORROR!

How dare they!:spank:

How dare anyone use their own minds to educate themselves or to think for themselves.

 

[Z7575]

You have your interpretation, jag has his, and every other Muslim has their interpretation. What makes you think your interpretation is more correct than anyone else?

Well that is good question, first of all i didn't interpret any thing because the god and his prophet interpret and explained every thing, i'm here to show how the prophet and the holy quran do that ....but jag claim that the prophet didn't, the prophet have no right to interpret any thing, while the quran and behind it the 'god' did, allah give the prophet that right, jag interpret the quran as he want, but i obligated by the interpret of prophet .....

it's not about who right and who wrong, its about some one explain the quran from him self, while the quran indeed explained not by prophets words and acts but by the quran it self .

quran like a map, we should walk in the light of it, jag asked why the god didn't told as which vehicle we should use, if u said u have the right to choose or even if u said the prophet indeed told us, he will said so the quran didn't explained every thing !!!

at last i'm not infallible, maybe i did some misakes here, maybe not, i'm not dictator !!, if jag or any one else have any objection, you have the right to debate but not to cheat and call me a lier !!

in short my "words", and way of understand the qouran is "more correct than" jag - not anyone else - because i study the quran and understand it by the understaning of prophet mohammed whom understand the quran more than any one else !!!

 

[Z7575]

You mean someone is interpreting the text for themselves? Actually thinking for themselves instead of being told what to think?

THE HORROR!

How dare they!:spank:

How dare anyone use their own minds to educate themselves or to think for themselves.

NO he didn't meant that we should not think and interpret, allah order us to read and to think, but the problem is when someone use his brain in the wrong way, no one said that u can THINK, but also no one said that u can take a part from the information or facts than debate about it,
u can't said 2+2=4 if u don't believe that 1+1=2, u can't interpret half of the quran while the other half interpret it.... u can't read "DiamondHearts" post and choose part of it to disprove his view, while the other half explained what did he meant !!

 

[S.A.M.]

"
and if we understand the quran as jag want from us to do, i think that from his study to quran, he should figure out the whole answers of all questions, like whom assassinated Kennedy !!!!!!

Can we do that?!!!

Ah don't get so excited, its only a discussion.

 

[(Q)]

Well that is good question, first of all i didn't interpret any thing because the god and his prophet interpret and explained every thing, i'm here to show how the prophet and the holy quran do that

In other words, you are showing YOUR interpretation. Or else, anyone could pick up the Quran and know exactly what is explained there, you, jag or me.

....but jag claim that the prophet didn't, the prophet have no right to interpret any thing, while the quran and behind it the 'god' did, allah give the prophet that right, jag interpret the quran as he want, but i obligated by the interpret of prophet .....

No, you simply disagreed with jag's interpretation over your own interpretation. Simple really.

it's not about who right and who wrong, its about some one explain the quran from him self, while the quran indeed explained not by prophets words and acts but by the quran it self .

Then, by your logic, anyone can understand the Quran and get exactly the same message as you.

at last i'm not infallible, maybe i did some misakes here, maybe not, i'm not dictator !!, if jag or any one else have any objection, you have the right to debate but not to cheat and call me a lier !!

Mistakes or not, it's all in the interpretation.

in short my "words", and way of understand the qouran is "more correct than" jag - not anyone else - because i study the quran and understand it by the understaning of prophet mohammed whom understand the quran more than any one else !!!

No, you are claiming that YOUR interpretation is more correct than jags.

 

[Z7575]

In other words, you are showing YOUR interpretation. Or else, anyone could pick up the Quran and know exactly what is explained there, you, jag or me..

Of course any one can understand the quran, its not about whom have the EXCLUSIVE right to understand the quran, but its about whom can understand the quran rightly ....
its about whom read the whole quran and knew the meaning of it ...

No, you simply disagreed with jag's interpretation over your own interpretation. Simple really.

No, cus every word i said completely harmonious with what the prophet said, what the sahaba said, what the scholars said, but while jag don't believe in sunna and in prophet's words, i can't quote any words outside the quran ...

Then, by your logic, anyone can understand the Quran and get exactly the same message as you

.
only if he read it scrutiny, without any agenda, from the first sourah or page to the last one ..... and understand it all, not take a part away from other parts ....
allah said:
"فتؤمنون ببعض الكتاب وتكفرون ببعض فما جزاء من يفعل ذلك منكم إلا خزي في الحياة الدنيا ويوم القيامة يردون إلى أشد العذاب وما الله بغافل عما تعملون"
"then is it only a part of the book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? and on the day of judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. for God is not unmindful of what ye do."[2:85]

No, you are claiming that YOUR interpretation is more correct than jags

indeed some of more correct, but not every thing, cus i agree with him in some points but with another COMPREHENSION

 

[(Q)]

Of course any one can understand the quran, its not about whom have the EXCLUSIVE right to understand the quran, but its about whom can understand the quran rightly ....
its about whom read the whole quran and knew the meaning of it ...

And "rightly" in your opinion is your interpretation of the Quran. I've been told by a number of Muslims I'll never understand the Quran for any number of silly reasons they've offered. It's all about their own personal interpretations, just like your interpretation and jags.

No, cus every word i said completely harmonious with what the prophet said, what the sahaba said, what the scholars said, but while jag don't believe in sunna and in prophet's words, i can't quote any words outside the quran ...

Again, that is your interpretation, the sahaba, the scholars, and many others compared with jags. All these interpretations of the Quran demonstrate the Quran is irrelevant as the ultimate source it is proclaimed to be.

only if he read it scrutiny, without any agenda, from the first sourah or page to the last one ..... and understand it all, not take a part away from other parts ....
allah said:
"فتؤمنون ببعض الكتاب وتكفرون ببعض فما جزاء من يفعل ذلك منكم إلا خزي في الحياة الدنيا ويوم القيامة يردون إلى أشد العذاب وما الله بغافل عما تعملون"
"then is it only a part of the book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? and on the day of judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. for God is not unmindful of what ye do."[2:85]

That quote is as relevant to you, me or jag, or anyone else who interprets the Quran.

indeed some of more correct, but not every thing, cus i agree with him in some points but with another COMPREHENSION

In other words, you disagree on your interpretations. Simple really.

 

[Z7575]

And "rightly" in your opinion is your interpretation of the Quran. I've been told by a number of Muslims I'll never understand the Quran for any number of silly reasons they've offered. It's all about their own personal interpretations, just like your interpretation and jags..

mr q you have an agenda, you don't really read the quran with open mind !!

Again, that is your interpretation, the sahaba, the scholars, and many others compared with jags. All these interpretations of the Quran demonstrate the Quran is irrelevant as the ultimate source it is proclaimed to be.

what about the prophet !!

In other words, you disagree on your interpretations. Simple really.

don't play by words with me, i were very clear in my post !!
when jag said the quran explaind every thing, i cant simply said no it didn't, while in my believe the quran did, or when he said the quran explain it self, what should i say .......i should agree with this statmen

and my post was about what i don't agree with !

 

[(Q)]

mr q you have an agenda, you don't really read the quran with open mind !!

I read the Quran with a mind, which is how I read all books.

Simple really.

If by an "open mind" you mean I'm to believe every word of it, that's something completely different.

what about the prophet !!

The Quran wasn't written by Muhammad.

when jag said the quran explaind every thing, i cant simply said no it didn't, while in my believe the quran did, or when he said the quran explain it self, what should i say .......i should agree with this statmen

Note the words I put in bold. You believe because that is your interpretation of the Quran. He believes because that is his interpretation.

Is there some reason why you're not able to understand this concept?

 

[Z7575]

I read the Quran with a mind, which is how I read all books. ?

Simple really.

If by an "open mind" you mean I'm to believe every word of it, that's something completely different.?

i know how u read the quran, its the same way of how i read the bible ...

The Quran wasn't written by Muhammad.

but who can understand the quran more than mohammed(salla allahu alihe wa sallam)

Note the words I put in bold. You believe because that is your interpretation of the Quran. He believes because that is his interpretation.

my believe correspond with prophet believes !!, while he not, is this convincing reason !