Multiculturalism...
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Bells
Staff member
There was never an insistance that one is meant to love everything about another culture. Multiculturalism is more about respecting other cultures. It is when one views the differences between cultures and beliefs that one can understand one's own culture better. How boring would it be if all were the same? If there were no variances in society. Different cultures show us what our own culture is truly about. Try viewing yourself from the outside and you start to see the good and bad points of yourself and also of your culture. And it is through this that one learns one's true identity.
xev
xev, currently western euro workplace is suffering a demographic crisis. Low birth rate coupled with longer life expectantcy has rendered most west-euro countries with a serious white collar workforce shortage. Hence the pro active drive to recruit from the asian sub continent for IT/medical/engineering and other such sectors, too lazy to give any links, google will give you all you need.
it was pure ecomomics that was behind the first proactive immigration policy in britain in the 50's, shortage of low end labour, now its shortage of middle to high end labour.
Your post betrays your slight lack of information regarding the detailed factors of the current economic/business environment currently affecting west-euro.
aswell as the recruitment of white collar workers from the asian sub continant , we also have a situiation whereby large bluechip companies are closing down their cal centres here in the UK and re locating them to India to take advantage of the low wage/high education ratio there. Just today Norwhich union, one of the UK's largest insurance companies announced that it was making 100's of redundancies here, and shifting callcentre opps to India, and many large UK bluechips have already done the same.
tolerence
As for multiculturalism, please.
I don't have to wear a burqua just so that I refrain from torching mosques. Tolerence is one thing - some of the most fertile cultures - Roman, British, Arab - arose from exposure to foriegn ideals and customs.
But forcing tolerence, being intolerent of intolerence, and insisting that we love everything about other cultures, is unnatural. Humans are somewhat xenophobic by nature. Deny human nature and you deny humanism, and all you're left with is some sterile little ant colony.
Which is what most of you herbivores want anyways.
wraith:
first of all, why is it that all you idiots when debating multiculturaliism ie: many cultures always home in on Islam? no one mentions hindu/tamil/sikh/kerala/jewish/hatian/west african/afro caribbean/chinese/japanese/malay cultures?
I don't have to wear a burqua just so that I refrain from torching mosques.
umm..not sure what you mean within the context of this debate red...
But forcing tolerence, being intolerent of intolerence, and insisting that we love everything about other cultures, is unnatural
well first off I have a real fucking problem with the nomenclature/definitions local govt pointy heads form. Defining terms are so important as the language you use affects the perception you have. So right off the bat I have major issues with using the word tolerence with regards to those who lets face are not white when it boils down to the hard core facts.
One tolerates a boil on the bottom, painful, but one griys his teeth, tolerates it and carries on.
It's not about tlerence at all, it's about basic respect for humanity, and normal nuts and bolts decency...plain and simple, nothing fancy.
xev, currently western euro workplace is suffering a demographic crisis. Low birth rate coupled with longer life expectantcy has rendered most west-euro countries with a serious white collar workforce shortage. Hence the pro active drive to recruit from the asian sub continent for IT/medical/engineering and other such sectors, too lazy to give any links, google will give you all you need.
it was pure ecomomics that was behind the first proactive immigration policy in britain in the 50's, shortage of low end labour, now its shortage of middle to high end labour.
Your post betrays your slight lack of information regarding the detailed factors of the current economic/business environment currently affecting west-euro.
aswell as the recruitment of white collar workers from the asian sub continant , we also have a situiation whereby large bluechip companies are closing down their cal centres here in the UK and re locating them to India to take advantage of the low wage/high education ratio there. Just today Norwhich union, one of the UK's largest insurance companies announced that it was making 100's of redundancies here, and shifting callcentre opps to India, and many large UK bluechips have already done the same.
tolerence
As for multiculturalism, please.
I don't have to wear a burqua just so that I refrain from torching mosques. Tolerence is one thing - some of the most fertile cultures - Roman, British, Arab - arose from exposure to foriegn ideals and customs.
But forcing tolerence, being intolerent of intolerence, and insisting that we love everything about other cultures, is unnatural. Humans are somewhat xenophobic by nature. Deny human nature and you deny humanism, and all you're left with is some sterile little ant colony.
Which is what most of you herbivores want anyways.
wraith:
first of all, why is it that all you idiots when debating multiculturaliism ie: many cultures always home in on Islam? no one mentions hindu/tamil/sikh/kerala/jewish/hatian/west african/afro caribbean/chinese/japanese/malay cultures?
I don't have to wear a burqua just so that I refrain from torching mosques.
umm..not sure what you mean within the context of this debate red...
But forcing tolerence, being intolerent of intolerence, and insisting that we love everything about other cultures, is unnatural
well first off I have a real fucking problem with the nomenclature/definitions local govt pointy heads form. Defining terms are so important as the language you use affects the perception you have. So right off the bat I have major issues with using the word tolerence with regards to those who lets face are not white when it boils down to the hard core facts.
One tolerates a boil on the bottom, painful, but one griys his teeth, tolerates it and carries on.
It's not about tlerence at all, it's about basic respect for humanity, and normal nuts and bolts decency...plain and simple, nothing fancy.
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Wraith,
Mind if I ask you two questions? (Yes, I know, I just asked one.) Why are you bothering with Xev? If the topic can't be addressed in one line or by some narrow-minded, poorly developed, pseudo-intellectual argument, Xev will most likely not respond. From my viewpoint, you are just wasting your time and energy by putting any significant amount of thought into your reply, since your points will most likely never be addressed by her. If you actually wanted a reply, you would most likely have to "dumb down" your post, and write an argument so intrinsically flawed that anyone could tear it apart.
Frankly, one of the only ways to end the perceived "job problem" that is caused by multiculturalism is to enact a "zero immigration" policy. I don't know about the UK, but I don't doubt that the US economy would be in shambles in less than 5 years if this idea was enacted. However, the average citizen lacks the mental abilities to see these long-term ramifications, and is more concerned with what new "reality show" is on television than the consequences of their rash decisions.
Mind if I ask you two questions? (Yes, I know, I just asked one.) Why are you bothering with Xev? If the topic can't be addressed in one line or by some narrow-minded, poorly developed, pseudo-intellectual argument, Xev will most likely not respond. From my viewpoint, you are just wasting your time and energy by putting any significant amount of thought into your reply, since your points will most likely never be addressed by her. If you actually wanted a reply, you would most likely have to "dumb down" your post, and write an argument so intrinsically flawed that anyone could tear it apart.
How many other easily identifiable cultures are there that will strike a chord with the masses? I doubt most Americans could tell a Tamil from a Sikh, or even a Chinese person from a Japanese, but the stereotypical picture of someone of an Islamic background is now an image Americans have ingrained in their minds. Thus, when trying to appeal to the American masses, it is the cultural background of choice.
It means that Xev is oversimplifying the situation in an attempt to rally other foolish individuals behind her point, not realizing that acceptance, not assimilation is a tenant of multiculturalism.
Another question for you, Wraith. It is really realistic to ask for anything else from people who will accept anything as long as it is perceived to help them? When the issue of multiculturalism comes up, what is the "battle cry"? "Foreigners are taking jobs that belong to residents of the country". In reality, these jobs are ones that the "residents" wont take because they are "holding out for something better" or are jobs that most people are simply not educated enough to do. Thus, these people simply find it convenient to blame outside entities for taking jobs that they will not, or are not even qualified to take.
Frankly, one of the only ways to end the perceived "job problem" that is caused by multiculturalism is to enact a "zero immigration" policy. I don't know about the UK, but I don't doubt that the US economy would be in shambles in less than 5 years if this idea was enacted. However, the average citizen lacks the mental abilities to see these long-term ramifications, and is more concerned with what new "reality show" is on television than the consequences of their rash decisions.
Fortunately we have labor and wage laws in the US. Which, if they were enforced properly, would render this argument irrelevant. Increasing the population of a country does not lead to job loss, as the new arrivals require all the same things as everyone else.
Regarding multiculturalism,
I believe in cultural relativism, and do not judge the cultures of other societys by the standards of my own culture, however, there are some cultural practices that contradict each other. If then, someone moves from a country with one cultural practice to another in which that cultural practice conflicts with that of the their new home, they need to adapt to it.
I believe that if this is adhered to, then there need be no problems with multicultural society, and in fact, that it is preferable to a homogeneous society.
Regarding tolerance,
I have little respect for those who hate cultures different from their own simply because they are foreign to them. That said, being intolerant of intolerance, is still intolerance. Free speech applies to everyone, and everyone is entitled to their point of view. I remember when the KKK had its first(and last) ill fated march in NYC. Friends of mine in the activist community where excited by the prospect of attacking them, and one person told me that they knew people who brought D batteries to throw at them. While I certainly dislike the klan, and what it stands for, all they wanted to do was march down the street and make their views known. No person who preaches tolerance should have a problem with that in itself. Sure a counterdemonstration is a good idea, but it should have been done in a way that respected the right of the klan to free expression. In my opinioin its better when these views like these are brought into the open, as open discussion of and understanding of them will in right-minded people lead to rejection of them.
dapthar
It means that Xev is oversimplifying the situation in an attempt to rally other foolish individuals behind her point, not realizing that acceptance, not assimilation is a tenant of multiculturalism.
indeed, and may I also add to acceptance:
1)identification of one's own indiginous culture,
2) acceptance of the fact that, that culture itself is a result of many different cultures. As I mentioned to vienna before (not that I think he actually bothers to read what I type) that culture isnt static, it's dynamic, fluid, under constant change.
Another question for you, Wraith. It is really realistic to ask for anything else from people who will accept anything as long as it is perceived to help them?
one must try, and keep asking these questions.
Bingo, right on the money.
It means that Xev is oversimplifying the situation in an attempt to rally other foolish individuals behind her point, not realizing that acceptance, not assimilation is a tenant of multiculturalism.
indeed, and may I also add to acceptance:
1)identification of one's own indiginous culture,
2) acceptance of the fact that, that culture itself is a result of many different cultures. As I mentioned to vienna before (not that I think he actually bothers to read what I type) that culture isnt static, it's dynamic, fluid, under constant change.
Another question for you, Wraith. It is really realistic to ask for anything else from people who will accept anything as long as it is perceived to help them?
one must try, and keep asking these questions.
Depends on what the goal is.
Further, "multiculturalism" will produce one world race and thus reduce diversity dramatically. Globalism - of which multiculturalism is an inseparable part - will transfer much wealth into the hands of a very few thanks to what you mentioned in your first sentence.
Or did you just not look?
Slowing Birth Rates in the UK: http://www.unece.org/stats/trend/trend_h.htm. After going there, click on the "United Kingdom" link. It's this one.
Skills shortage partially masked by the currently sluggish economy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,912607,00.html
Guess what, I found them using Google. Many more on the same topics turned up as well. Happy reading.
Multiculturalism only asks that one simply accept different cultures. Who you breed with is your own choice.
First of all, here's a definition so you don't go misusing the word globalism again.
As you can see, globalism is not a necessary part of multiculturalism. Also, globalism need not have anything to do with capitalism, the economic philosophy of choice for transferring "wealth into the hands of a very few".
On an unrelated note, 28+ posts in one day? Someone's got way too much free time.
A
and2000x
Guest
Yet, the majority of humans obtain their opinions and knowledge from what is taught by the media, friends, entertainment industry, etc. Thus if multiculturalism is the next big destructive fad, it is usually endorsed as the only method, (most evident by companies that are hounded for not being 'diverse enough') The dangerous effects are already seen on the melting pot of television and the hopelessly lost youth who have on identity, no tradition, and no purpose in life.
Currently it is a part of capitalism and it is a part of multiculturalism. Have you ever heard of terror management theory? It states that humans will undergo depression and desperation when confronted by the nihilism of the universe. A culture acts as a wall, or barrier against realizing mortality and futility. Thus whenever a person's culture is attacked, they will defend it to the death, because it is their protection from alienation and terror. Read the recent National Geographic issue of Saudi Arabia. The locals suffer from brain disorders and behavioral breakdowns due to the constant revolutions and change in the climate of their social and political life.
PS: Craig, I am a big fan of your site, it's good to see you come on here.
A
and2000x
Guest
By now I figured this would be commonly accepted fact, considering whites only make up 10% of the world population:
Lower birth rates among whites:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/racism/Story/0,2763,363783,00.html
Lower birth rates in Europe:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/27/world/main546441.shtml
How exactly is this point is related to the "forced breeding" issue raised earlier?
You contradict this assertion with your "supporting example". See below.
Yet this is a counterexample to your point. By your logic, they should be fine, since they will constantly defend their culture, regardless of the "attacks" that may occur, one of these being the changes in their social and political lives. Their "mental defense mechanism" should be hard at work in this example, stopping them from developing brain disorders which you attribute to drastic changes in their environs, which would cause them to feel alienated from society. However, as you show, it apparently is not, thus contradicting your assertion about peoples' cultures transforming them into cultural zealots.
Have you actually read his columns? It's the same old tired, pro-Hitler, anti-immigrant, pseudo-intellectual propaganda dressed up in the guise of faux-logical arguments to perpetuate the image of the writer as a reasonable person making objective observations about society. He touts the ideas he supports as the "truth", but in the end, he falls back upon baseless generalizations and appeals to fear rather than supporting his ideas with logical arguments. Frankly, I can't say I'm surprised though, since it's rather difficult to develop logical arguments to support ideas that had no logical basis to begin with.
So it's logical to say that the whites are in actual fact the minority and are the oppressed.
MULTICULTURISM or INVASION????
It's a matter of pure arithmetic that, if nothing else happens, non-Europeans will become a majority and whites a minority in the UK. That would probably be the first time an indigenous population has voluntarily become a minority in its historic homeland.
In Britain, that is almost certain to happen in London, and in the very near future.
At the moment ethnic minorities are about 40 per cent in London. The demographics show that white people in London will become a minority by 2010, and we could have a majority black Britain by the turn of the century.
Every people under the sun have a right to their place under the sun, and the right to survive. If people predicted that Indians would be a minority in India in 2100, everyone would be calling it genocide.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Doesn't make sense Vienna
Nope, you still dont get it it, do you? THe UK body politic was more corrupt 200, 150 years ago. It is less so now. So wheres your correlation nooo then?
The country hasnt "failed" excpet in so far as it is suffering the inevitable, wholly predictable and unstoppable comedown from the high of empire, ergo, it is nothing to do with multiculturalism bringing the country into ruin. Tell you what, why dont you try and find some figures of what the immigrants of the last 50 years have cost the contry and helped it.
AS for where I stand, I stand in the middle. I can however only speak for myself, not having divine mandate, or delegated powers. Who do you speak for?
Nope, you still dont get it it, do you? THe UK body politic was more corrupt 200, 150 years ago. It is less so now. So wheres your correlation nooo then?
The country hasnt "failed" excpet in so far as it is suffering the inevitable, wholly predictable and unstoppable comedown from the high of empire, ergo, it is nothing to do with multiculturalism bringing the country into ruin. Tell you what, why dont you try and find some figures of what the immigrants of the last 50 years have cost the contry and helped it.
AS for where I stand, I stand in the middle. I can however only speak for myself, not having divine mandate, or delegated powers. Who do you speak for?
To put it in sowrds of one syllable for the impressionable, genocide is an acto of violence pepetrated upon unwilling victims. However, whites refusing to breed enough to keep up their end of the population is a voluntary ect, and therefore not covered by the word. Why dont you all address to yoruself why whites arend breeding enough, and why otehr peopel want to come to the country, thn start moaning about things.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Doesn't make sense Vienna
Why are you so surprised that the British people try to preserve their identity against the forced immigration masses?
Against the "rules" is it?
Got any figures on that statement?
Tell you what, you find 'em.
Good for you, you know your place.
I speak as an individual who falls in the category of 10% of the world population: the white minority.
Why are you so surprised that the British people try to preserve their identity against the forced immigration masses?
Against the "rules" is it?
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Daphy:
quote:
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Originally posted by Craig Smith
Further, "multiculturalism" will produce one world race and thus reduce diversity dramatically.
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Multiculturalism only asks that one simply accept different cultures. Who you breed with is your own choice
BINGO
Thank God, someone else has read between the lines! Fear of MCism? Bullshit, they have this stupid fallacious idea stuck in their inbred skulls:
"Our master race will be tainted! Our master race will be tainted....."
Vienna, I'll back to your questions (and may I remind you, you still have not answered mine), but let me say this:
Your equation of the "white" race as it's perceived in your tiny little mind is pathetic.
Let me ask you this: There are white Syrians, Lebanese, and white Arabs indiginous to many parts of the saudi Peninsula, all of whom are "whiter" than your pasty pale-faced ass let me tell you. Would you consider them as part of the white race as you perceive it in your head?
Who were the precursors to the white west-Euro peoples?? I've mentioned it before, might aswell again.
Geneticists have now concluded that the original precursors to those who inhabited northern, and eastern europe originated from the ME, probably eastern ME and much of what is now Turkey.
again too lazy for the links bla blah.....
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Craig Smith
Further, "multiculturalism" will produce one world race and thus reduce diversity dramatically.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Multiculturalism only asks that one simply accept different cultures. Who you breed with is your own choice
BINGO
Thank God, someone else has read between the lines! Fear of MCism? Bullshit, they have this stupid fallacious idea stuck in their inbred skulls:
"Our master race will be tainted! Our master race will be tainted....."
Vienna, I'll back to your questions (and may I remind you, you still have not answered mine), but let me say this:
Your equation of the "white" race as it's perceived in your tiny little mind is pathetic.
Let me ask you this: There are white Syrians, Lebanese, and white Arabs indiginous to many parts of the saudi Peninsula, all of whom are "whiter" than your pasty pale-faced ass let me tell you. Would you consider them as part of the white race as you perceive it in your head?
Who were the precursors to the white west-Euro peoples?? I've mentioned it before, might aswell again.
Geneticists have now concluded that the original precursors to those who inhabited northern, and eastern europe originated from the ME, probably eastern ME and much of what is now Turkey.
again too lazy for the links bla blah.....
Vienna
1) example of British culture being fluid (as is any culture) off the top of my head:
Just over a 100 years ago (victorian era) it was absolutely unheard of and unspeakable for Women to dress exposing their legs, or indeed any other part of their bodies appart from their hands and faces. Furthermore it was also frowned upon for a lady to be seen out on the streets without being accompanied by a male or at least another lady.
Today women go out half naked....surely you've been out on saturday night , you know what I mean, but that's a cultural shift.
1)British people, you mean whites dont you Bernard Manning?
2)Preserve what? What exactly is it that you fear is so under threat??
1) example of British culture being fluid (as is any culture) off the top of my head:
Just over a 100 years ago (victorian era) it was absolutely unheard of and unspeakable for Women to dress exposing their legs, or indeed any other part of their bodies appart from their hands and faces. Furthermore it was also frowned upon for a lady to be seen out on the streets without being accompanied by a male or at least another lady.
Today women go out half naked....surely you've been out on saturday night , you know what I mean, but that's a cultural shift.
1)British people, you mean whites dont you Bernard Manning?
2)Preserve what? What exactly is it that you fear is so under threat??
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