pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
Book of Mormon
Amen, brother!! (no pun intended!)
Amen, brother!! (no pun intended!)
Mormons are a CULT!
- Thread starter pumpkinsaren'torange
- Start date
D
Davearchy
Guest
What if I met a man on the street who told me that Christians worship satan...does this make it absolutely true? Let's say I talk to a guy that left the Baptist church because of some disagreements, and he is so mad that he goes around telling people untruths about his church to get back at them, and he even goes into supposed facts others have gone about gathering to make his ex-church look all the worst.
Now, considering some of you are open minded, I find it hard to believe that everyone of you would listen to anything you hear. You go find links, sure, links that aren't from the actual source of the religion. I could have my entire highschool call you satanists, and tell everyone else that you sacrificed children, but does that make it true? If i'm told by a Ph.D. professor in physics that gravity doesn't exist, does that make him right? No, it doesn't, does it?
Now i'm not saying that you guys are calling us satanists, but it is the best example i could think of to describe what is happening. And I ask of you to stop telling us what we believe. Stop saying "oh so and so said that this is true, so it has to be", it just doesn't work out like that.
*I say 'we' in the following sentences meaning the people in the LDS religion at the time.* And about history, I believe we were the ones that were being slaughtered and killed, not the other way around. We were a peaceful people that because of our beliefs, the governor of Missouri, the fecking governor, ordered our extermination if we did not immediately just drop everything and leave. Now, in terms of some of the LDS fighting the army...well ask yourselves if you were on a homeland that you loved very much, and you had already moved many times, and the only alternative was to travel all the way to the West, would you not fight back?
Back to blacks again. As far as i can remember, those Blacks that were in the church before they were allowed the priesthood were taught why they were not able to have it yet, and ya know what? they understood, they didn't complain. Now why would the people supposedly being 'wronged' not complain, but those against the church would? it is common sense, people against the church are not willing to accept that maybe we aren't a bad people, maybe our intentions are good. I'm not saying everyone believes the stereotypes of us, and that they all think we're bad, but the truth is, a lot do.
Now i've noticed something that Nehushta did. Some of what I say provides perfectly enlightening and opening examples and remarks, but i am being partially ignored. Meaning when your 'own medicine' is thrust back in your own direction, u can't handle the answers so you ask another question.
I'm afraid i'm with lamplighter, if this stiff neckedness continues, this discussion is over, on basis of pointlessness.
Now, considering some of you are open minded, I find it hard to believe that everyone of you would listen to anything you hear. You go find links, sure, links that aren't from the actual source of the religion. I could have my entire highschool call you satanists, and tell everyone else that you sacrificed children, but does that make it true? If i'm told by a Ph.D. professor in physics that gravity doesn't exist, does that make him right? No, it doesn't, does it?
Now i'm not saying that you guys are calling us satanists, but it is the best example i could think of to describe what is happening. And I ask of you to stop telling us what we believe. Stop saying "oh so and so said that this is true, so it has to be", it just doesn't work out like that.
*I say 'we' in the following sentences meaning the people in the LDS religion at the time.* And about history, I believe we were the ones that were being slaughtered and killed, not the other way around. We were a peaceful people that because of our beliefs, the governor of Missouri, the fecking governor, ordered our extermination if we did not immediately just drop everything and leave. Now, in terms of some of the LDS fighting the army...well ask yourselves if you were on a homeland that you loved very much, and you had already moved many times, and the only alternative was to travel all the way to the West, would you not fight back?
Back to blacks again. As far as i can remember, those Blacks that were in the church before they were allowed the priesthood were taught why they were not able to have it yet, and ya know what? they understood, they didn't complain. Now why would the people supposedly being 'wronged' not complain, but those against the church would? it is common sense, people against the church are not willing to accept that maybe we aren't a bad people, maybe our intentions are good. I'm not saying everyone believes the stereotypes of us, and that they all think we're bad, but the truth is, a lot do.
Now i've noticed something that Nehushta did. Some of what I say provides perfectly enlightening and opening examples and remarks, but i am being partially ignored. Meaning when your 'own medicine' is thrust back in your own direction, u can't handle the answers so you ask another question.
I'm afraid i'm with lamplighter, if this stiff neckedness continues, this discussion is over, on basis of pointlessness.
Did Mormons take terrorism lessons from the Amish?
Very interesting, Randolfo - thank you for the information. I'd like to quote from one of those links you so kindly provided for our edification:
Background on the War in Missouri
Troubled Beginnings
Latter-day Saints and especially their leaders had demonstrated commendable restraint in their response to violence time after time in the early days of the Church. Shunning aggression and retribution, Latter-day Saint actions had been essentially defensive in the face of persecution and violence in New York and then in Ohio. They had been driven from their homes and property in both states, some of them losing everything more than once. By 1838, they Saints were gathering in force in Missouri, where they hoped to exist peacefully and help establish a kingdom of God on earth.
Though there were some naturally rough and violent people in the frontier state of Missouri, even respectable citizens of that state had legitimate reasons for being concerned about their Mormon neighbors. They were concentrating in one portion of the state, where they were becoming a significant economic and local political force. They tended to do business among themselves, leading to charges that their economic exclusivity was un-American. They were different, with a much-belittled religion and the odd belief that a Prophet was among them. They were also buying up much land in the area. They were also branded as pro-abolition in a state that favored slavery. There were concerns that Mormons would incite rebellion among slaves and Mormons were accused of slave tampering. Likewise, there was fear that Mormons might incite Indian wars, since the Mormons were favorably oriented toward the Indians and had tried to preach to them. Naturally, it was easy for neighbors to be suspicious and worried. Take the Missourians economic and political concerns, through in a little bigotry, couple that with Mormon frustration about endless persecutions against a "chosen people" - and you've got a recipe for trouble.
Frankly, the above description is probably too generous to the Missourians. There was a spirit of violence and persecution against the Latter-day Saints while they were still few in number in the early 1830s, while the Church was centered in Kirtland, Ohio. The actions of a few of the Missourians shortly after the first group of Saints arrived in 1831 shows something about the kind of people they were dealing with. Here is an excerpt from the article "Missouri Conflict" by Max H. Parkin in The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, relating facts in the quotation below that I believe are not in dispute:
Vandalism against LDS settlers first occurred in the spring of 1832. Coordinated aggression commenced in July 1833, after the article "Free People of Color" appeared in the Evening and the Morning Star. Even though the article was written to curtail trouble, it so outraged local citizens that more than 400 met at the courthouse to demand that the Mormons leave. When the Latter-day Saints refused to negotiate away or abandon lands they legally owned, some citizens formed a mob and destroyed the press and printing house, ransacked the Mormon store, and violently accosted LDS leaders. Bishop Edward Partridge was beaten and tarred and feathered. Meeting three days later, the mob issued an ultimatum: One-half of the Mormons must leave by year's end and the rest by April (1834).
Yeah, those Mormons were a pretty frightening bunch, all right. In fact, I'd say they were right up there with the Amish in the terrorism department.
Very interesting, Randolfo - thank you for the information. I'd like to quote from one of those links you so kindly provided for our edification:
Background on the War in Missouri
Troubled Beginnings
Latter-day Saints and especially their leaders had demonstrated commendable restraint in their response to violence time after time in the early days of the Church. Shunning aggression and retribution, Latter-day Saint actions had been essentially defensive in the face of persecution and violence in New York and then in Ohio. They had been driven from their homes and property in both states, some of them losing everything more than once. By 1838, they Saints were gathering in force in Missouri, where they hoped to exist peacefully and help establish a kingdom of God on earth.
Though there were some naturally rough and violent people in the frontier state of Missouri, even respectable citizens of that state had legitimate reasons for being concerned about their Mormon neighbors. They were concentrating in one portion of the state, where they were becoming a significant economic and local political force. They tended to do business among themselves, leading to charges that their economic exclusivity was un-American. They were different, with a much-belittled religion and the odd belief that a Prophet was among them. They were also buying up much land in the area. They were also branded as pro-abolition in a state that favored slavery. There were concerns that Mormons would incite rebellion among slaves and Mormons were accused of slave tampering. Likewise, there was fear that Mormons might incite Indian wars, since the Mormons were favorably oriented toward the Indians and had tried to preach to them. Naturally, it was easy for neighbors to be suspicious and worried. Take the Missourians economic and political concerns, through in a little bigotry, couple that with Mormon frustration about endless persecutions against a "chosen people" - and you've got a recipe for trouble.
Frankly, the above description is probably too generous to the Missourians. There was a spirit of violence and persecution against the Latter-day Saints while they were still few in number in the early 1830s, while the Church was centered in Kirtland, Ohio. The actions of a few of the Missourians shortly after the first group of Saints arrived in 1831 shows something about the kind of people they were dealing with. Here is an excerpt from the article "Missouri Conflict" by Max H. Parkin in The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, relating facts in the quotation below that I believe are not in dispute:
Vandalism against LDS settlers first occurred in the spring of 1832. Coordinated aggression commenced in July 1833, after the article "Free People of Color" appeared in the Evening and the Morning Star. Even though the article was written to curtail trouble, it so outraged local citizens that more than 400 met at the courthouse to demand that the Mormons leave. When the Latter-day Saints refused to negotiate away or abandon lands they legally owned, some citizens formed a mob and destroyed the press and printing house, ransacked the Mormon store, and violently accosted LDS leaders. Bishop Edward Partridge was beaten and tarred and feathered. Meeting three days later, the mob issued an ultimatum: One-half of the Mormons must leave by year's end and the rest by April (1834).
Yeah, those Mormons were a pretty frightening bunch, all right. In fact, I'd say they were right up there with the Amish in the terrorism department.
D
Davearchy
Guest
Okay, now that things have 'simmered' down, I have a question of my own. Why are we *the Mormons* considered non-Chritian by others, maybe even you? And one more question, why do I hear a lot of people calling us a Cult? Show me your reasoning as to calling us a cult, and we'll see where we can go from there, peacefully and without contention, hopefully.
"Mormon" vs "Christian"
For me, referring to your religion as "Mormon" while referring to someone else's religion as "Christian" is simply a way to distinguish a non-standard, Jesus-based religion from the every day, garden variety types. It's kind of like distinguishing a Siamese cat from an ordinary house cat - they're both cats, and everyone knows it. But if you specify that your cat is Siamese, everyone will have a much clearer picture in their minds as to what your cat looks like than if you had simply referred to him as a cat. Not the best analogy maybe, but I hope it helps.
I'm not sure about the cult thing. Maybe one of those who are making this claim would be so kind as to post some criteria on what constitutes a "cult", at least in their minds?
For me, referring to your religion as "Mormon" while referring to someone else's religion as "Christian" is simply a way to distinguish a non-standard, Jesus-based religion from the every day, garden variety types. It's kind of like distinguishing a Siamese cat from an ordinary house cat - they're both cats, and everyone knows it. But if you specify that your cat is Siamese, everyone will have a much clearer picture in their minds as to what your cat looks like than if you had simply referred to him as a cat. Not the best analogy maybe, but I hope it helps.
I'm not sure about the cult thing. Maybe one of those who are making this claim would be so kind as to post some criteria on what constitutes a "cult", at least in their minds?
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WildBlueYonder
Guest
Re: Did Mormons take terrorism lessons from the Amish?
You're welcome! All the links were found just using keywords. As to the Amish, I think they are 'pacifists' anyway, while the mormons are not.
I'm still trying to figure out if the main reason non-mormons made such a fuss in the 1800's was because of 'polygamy' or some other reason?
They didn't chase out Catholics or Jews out of the frontier, so why did they form mobs against mormons????
Was it something J. Smith said, did or how he acted?
Today all his ideas, words & actions would be taken as:
1) scandalous
2) just another prophet
3) ho hum, pass the remote &
4) by Christians as false doctrine
And secondly;
In your post, you asked if mormons had participated in any acts of violence, so I posted the links below to answer your post & now include notes:
Mormons displace & fight Native peoples in the Utah Valley
"northern utes" http://historytogo.utah.gov/nutes.html (you have to go about 40% down this link, to read about mormons & N. Utes, but the other stuff is interesting too)
Mormons form secret militia
"danites", http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
Mormons form militia
"mormon militia", http://www.mormontrail.net/TRAIL97/...S/06jul1cm.html
Mormons massacre Arkansas emigrants
"mountain meadow massacre", http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/Carelton/maj.htm
Mormons answer call to territorial war against Mexico
"mormon battalion" http://www.ptsi.net/user/museum/mormon.html
Mormon King in his regalia
"lieutenant general joseph smith" http://www.realmormonhistory.com/pictures1.htm
There's something about Brigham
"brigham young" http://www.realmormonhistory.com/
more sites:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/06.shtml
http://www.nccg.org/NCMM/LDS2-2.html
http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/m04.html#cult
Originally posted by Nehushta
Very interesting, Randolfo - thank you for the information. I'd like to quote from one of those links you so kindly provided for our edification:
Background on the War in Missouri
Troubled Beginnings
Yeah, those Mormons were a pretty frightening bunch, all right. In fact, I'd say they were right up there with the Amish in the terrorism department.
You're welcome! All the links were found just using keywords. As to the Amish, I think they are 'pacifists' anyway, while the mormons are not.
I'm still trying to figure out if the main reason non-mormons made such a fuss in the 1800's was because of 'polygamy' or some other reason?
They didn't chase out Catholics or Jews out of the frontier, so why did they form mobs against mormons????
Was it something J. Smith said, did or how he acted?
Today all his ideas, words & actions would be taken as:
1) scandalous
2) just another prophet
3) ho hum, pass the remote &
4) by Christians as false doctrine
And secondly;
In your post, you asked if mormons had participated in any acts of violence, so I posted the links below to answer your post & now include notes:
Mormons displace & fight Native peoples in the Utah Valley
"northern utes" http://historytogo.utah.gov/nutes.html (you have to go about 40% down this link, to read about mormons & N. Utes, but the other stuff is interesting too)
Mormons form secret militia
"danites", http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
Mormons form militia
"mormon militia", http://www.mormontrail.net/TRAIL97/...S/06jul1cm.html
Mormons massacre Arkansas emigrants
"mountain meadow massacre", http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/Carelton/maj.htm
Mormons answer call to territorial war against Mexico
"mormon battalion" http://www.ptsi.net/user/museum/mormon.html
Mormon King in his regalia
"lieutenant general joseph smith" http://www.realmormonhistory.com/pictures1.htm
There's something about Brigham
"brigham young" http://www.realmormonhistory.com/
more sites:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/06.shtml
http://www.nccg.org/NCMM/LDS2-2.html
http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/m04.html#cult
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WildBlueYonder
Guest
Re: Beware of soapboxes ...
I disagree with that, as a Mexican of mestizo heritage (Native & Spanish), I say that by FARMS trying to prove that the BoM is true, it is trying to steal our heritage & claim it for the ancient Israelites. Which, I suppose would be fine if it were true, but most of the theories that claimed that the ancient Israelites founded civilizations here in the Americas, did it because they could not believe "SAVAGES" could have built these wonders; from the mounds of the Mid-West to the ruins of the Mayas, Toltecs, Incas, etc..
Is the BoM true? Archeology, anthropology, genetics, linguistics, & history prove otherwise.
In other posts, I relay my journey from so-so catholism (till age 17), Judaism (17 to 26), agnostic to atheists depending on what I felt at any time or if I cared (until 30), to trying Lutheranism, Methodism, catholism, JW, & finally christianity (30 to 47 & beyond). I've had black Judaism, black Islam, islam, apostolism, mormonism, new age, hinduism, buddhism & shamanism explained in general to fine detail to me, in person by practitioners (either to convert me or just friends & acquaintances telling me what they were into), to reading up on it on my own.
I'm a history buff (Pharaohic Egypt, T'ang China, Arab Conquest Era (632 to 732), Visigothic Spain ( Alaric to Roderic), Islamic & Reconquest Spain (711 to 1492), Ottoman Turk, Mesoamerican (Olmec, Teotihuacán, Toltec, Maya), S. American (Moche & Inca) & have taken many archeology & anthropology classes ).
Check these out:
http://www.farmsresearch.com/
http://www.meridianmagazine.com/farms/011210half.html
I disagree with that, as a Mexican of mestizo heritage (Native & Spanish), I say that by FARMS trying to prove that the BoM is true, it is trying to steal our heritage & claim it for the ancient Israelites. Which, I suppose would be fine if it were true, but most of the theories that claimed that the ancient Israelites founded civilizations here in the Americas, did it because they could not believe "SAVAGES" could have built these wonders; from the mounds of the Mid-West to the ruins of the Mayas, Toltecs, Incas, etc..
Is the BoM true? Archeology, anthropology, genetics, linguistics, & history prove otherwise.
Tell me, why should I believe the "fruit" that calls the "tree" rotten? It's up to the "rotten fruit" to prove the "tree" is infected with rot.
In other posts, I relay my journey from so-so catholism (till age 17), Judaism (17 to 26), agnostic to atheists depending on what I felt at any time or if I cared (until 30), to trying Lutheranism, Methodism, catholism, JW, & finally christianity (30 to 47 & beyond). I've had black Judaism, black Islam, islam, apostolism, mormonism, new age, hinduism, buddhism & shamanism explained in general to fine detail to me, in person by practitioners (either to convert me or just friends & acquaintances telling me what they were into), to reading up on it on my own.
I'm a history buff (Pharaohic Egypt, T'ang China, Arab Conquest Era (632 to 732), Visigothic Spain ( Alaric to Roderic), Islamic & Reconquest Spain (711 to 1492), Ottoman Turk, Mesoamerican (Olmec, Teotihuacán, Toltec, Maya), S. American (Moche & Inca) & have taken many archeology & anthropology classes ).
Check these out:
http://www.farmsresearch.com/
http://www.meridianmagazine.com/farms/011210half.html
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WildBlueYonder
Guest
Check out differences in beliefs in: God, Jesus Christ, Salvation, Heaven, Hell, Lucifer, Priesthood, Church, sect, etc....
Some of those differences are masked in "code words", words that are christian but that mean different things to mormons
Check these sites:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/
http://www.nccg.org/NCMM/LDS2-4.html
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
Nahustha
sometimes i sit and wonder..
and, i wonder if you really feel compelled to respond to this thread for the purpose of adding to it because of your own passion you feel for the Christian religion ..or, if you are merely playing the role of an instigator. notice.. i didn't say alligator...i said instigator. hmm...i wonder.
p.s. all witches wear black. oh, yeah.....
sometimes i sit and wonder..
and, i wonder if you really feel compelled to respond to this thread for the purpose of adding to it because of your own passion you feel for the Christian religion ..or, if you are merely playing the role of an instigator. notice.. i didn't say alligator...i said instigator. hmm...i wonder.
p.s. all witches wear black. oh, yeah.....
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
Davearchy
originally posted by Davearchy:
the reason "real" christians don't want mormons to bear that title[of Christian] is because of one essential missing set of criteria that mormons are failing to acknowlege...namely, the Holy Trininty. the WHOLE christian religion is BASED upon that doctrine. and, please...spare me the the verbage of..."well, the nicene creed...blah, blah, blah response. the holy trinity was around LOOOONNG before the nicene creed ever became an idea, let alone a creed.
the base/crux of christianity rests upon the belief in the Holy Trinity. that is, the Father, Son, and, Holy Ghost...AND, that each are the other. that is: the Father aka God IS Jesus, and he IS also the Holy Spirit. AND, Jesus IS the Father/God AND he IS the Holy Spirit. and...now..get this...the Holy Spirit IS IS IS(underline IS) GOD and, the Holy Spirit IS *gasp* Jesus.
originally posted by Davearchy:
the reason "real" christians don't want mormons to bear that title[of Christian] is because of one essential missing set of criteria that mormons are failing to acknowlege...namely, the Holy Trininty. the WHOLE christian religion is BASED upon that doctrine. and, please...spare me the the verbage of..."well, the nicene creed...blah, blah, blah response. the holy trinity was around LOOOONNG before the nicene creed ever became an idea, let alone a creed.
the base/crux of christianity rests upon the belief in the Holy Trinity. that is, the Father, Son, and, Holy Ghost...AND, that each are the other. that is: the Father aka God IS Jesus, and he IS also the Holy Spirit. AND, Jesus IS the Father/God AND he IS the Holy Spirit. and...now..get this...the Holy Spirit IS IS IS(underline IS) GOD and, the Holy Spirit IS *gasp* Jesus.
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Re: Nahustha
I'm not sure if you meant this for me, simply because it doesn't make any sense in light of anything we've discussed up until now. I am truly baffled at what your message to me might be here. I have no "passion for the Christian religion", nor have I ever pretended to - I am Pagan. I enjoy debating religion - pretty much like everyone else who posts in this forum. I am neither for nor against the Mormon Church at this point, and from the one article that I got to read so far that Randolfo posted a link to and which I reprinted a portion of, they seem about as dangerous as the Amish (for the irony impaired, that means they don't seem particularly dangerous to me). They certainly don't have the record for violence and bloodshed that the rest of Christianity has, nor are they trying to force their religion on me as Fundamentalist Christians do, so I really don't see any real reason to pick on them.
Your "alligator" remark is completely meaningless to me - I figure it must have something to do with some TV show or maybe the music the kids these days listen to - I have no idea (I don't watch TV and I don't listen to the radio, so any comments relating to either will probably be lost on me - sorry). And the remark about all witches wearing black is also strange. Are you trying to say that I am stereotyping Christians?
I'm not sure if you meant this for me, simply because it doesn't make any sense in light of anything we've discussed up until now. I am truly baffled at what your message to me might be here. I have no "passion for the Christian religion", nor have I ever pretended to - I am Pagan. I enjoy debating religion - pretty much like everyone else who posts in this forum. I am neither for nor against the Mormon Church at this point, and from the one article that I got to read so far that Randolfo posted a link to and which I reprinted a portion of, they seem about as dangerous as the Amish (for the irony impaired, that means they don't seem particularly dangerous to me). They certainly don't have the record for violence and bloodshed that the rest of Christianity has, nor are they trying to force their religion on me as Fundamentalist Christians do, so I really don't see any real reason to pick on them.
Your "alligator" remark is completely meaningless to me - I figure it must have something to do with some TV show or maybe the music the kids these days listen to - I have no idea (I don't watch TV and I don't listen to the radio, so any comments relating to either will probably be lost on me - sorry). And the remark about all witches wearing black is also strange. Are you trying to say that I am stereotyping Christians?
Re: Davearchy
You're right - Divine Triplicities are borrowed Pagan concepts from way back. Christianity has borrowed many such concepts from Pagan religions of old (the savior god-man being one of them). What makes you think that your brand of Christianity is better for being based on older Pagan concepts?
You're right - Divine Triplicities are borrowed Pagan concepts from way back. Christianity has borrowed many such concepts from Pagan religions of old (the savior god-man being one of them). What makes you think that your brand of Christianity is better for being based on older Pagan concepts?
D
Davearchy
Guest
Let me see if i'm interpreting correctly...your saying that we aren't Christians because we don't believe in the same things as you? So here, the original meaning of Christian *all those that believe in Christ* doesn't apply or what?
And I haven't seen answers for my cult question, especially since it was started by pumpkin *i think* and he is always here, so i find it odd.
And I haven't seen answers for my cult question, especially since it was started by pumpkin *i think* and he is always here, so i find it odd.
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WildBlueYonder
Guest
Let me answer both questions, by first saying that just saying you are a "christian" does not make it so, your name could even be 'Christian Christopher Christianson', & you could still be a pagan, a buddhist, a hindu, an atheist or a mormon, but that name alone won't make you a christian, following Christ does. Now you ask, how do you follow Christ? That's were you have to read the Bible, especially read the Gospels & see what the real Jesus said & did, then go to several churches and see if you encounter that real Jesus there. When you do, stay there, learn there, read, study & get baptized there.
Jesus said a lot of things, find out if they are true, if they have meaning for you, if they call you by name, follow Jesus! If the Bible is the WORD of the GOD of the Universe, then it should be able to 'speak' to any person, no matter what age, nation, time, place or language. If it is the WORD of GOD, then it was written for Randolfo, Davearchy, pumpkinsaren'torange, Nehushta, pragmathen, Lamplighter, & every one else in this universe, "yes" or "no"?
A "CULT" to me is: any belief system that claims to be "Christian", but in reality believes things that are either totally false or will lead to damnation, and they usually have the Bible in one hand, but "another so-called ‘bible’ in the other". Other religions are not cults, they may be wrong or false, but since they don't claim to be christian, they can not be cults!
Islam is not a cult, they do not claim to be Christians, they stand on their own
Judaism is not a cult, they do not claim to be Christians, they stand on their own
Buddhism is not a cult, they do not claim to be Christians, they stand on their own
Mormonism claims several things that to me make it a cult:
1) that J. Smith was a prophet
2) that the Book of Mormon is a true gospel
3) that the Book of Mormon tells the true history of the ancient Israelites & the Native peoples of this hemisphere
4) that Jesus came to speak with the Native peoples of this hemisphere
5) that Jesus & Lucifer are really brothers
6) that man can become gods, just like God the Father, Jesus & the Holy Spirit supposedly did
7) that several beliefs that are either NOT in the Bible or are spoken AGAINST them in it, are in fact true: such as Kolob, men becoming gods, real sex between God & the Holy Spirit to make spirit children, Jesus & Lucifer being brothers, holy underwear, secret beliefs & rituals (only Gnostics believed these, & they were a cult), sexual relations in heaven, marriage in heaven
and that there are other gods (Read that Old Testament, God is adamant about that being false!!!)
8) that the LDS church is the only true, restored christian church, all others are NOT christian, even if they have the name "God", "Christian", Jesus", or "Jesus Christ" in their name. Check out what the LDS believes about these: RLDS, World Wide Church of God, Church of God, Church of God in Christ, Christian Disciples, & Assemblies of God?
9) that the words, concepts & rituals that mormons use are in fact the true meanings of those words, etc., such as "Jesus" & "Christian", (the real Jesus would chase you away, saying "I never knew you". Read Matthew 7: 15 to 23)
& finally,
10) saying that they are "Christian", when they are NOT!!!
All the preceding proves to me & any other christian, that mormons are in fact a cult. No matter what words you use or how you define them, mormons are a cult!
If you consider that mean, biased, or wrong, then you really don’t know what a “cult” is!
So don’t ask & I won’t tell (the truth)!
For a dictionary meaning of "cult", check these out:
http://www.hyperdic.net/dic/c/cult.shtml
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?cult
http://www.bartleby.com/61/97/C0799700.html
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WildBlueYonder
Guest
Re: Re: Davearchy
Interesting notion Nehushta, but have you ever stopped to consider that maybe, since God created us in His image (spiritual image, not physical for all you mormons), all mankind shares some similar ideas about God? Paul even says that nature provides us with an understanding of God's qualities, in the Letter to the Romans (Ch. 1: verses 18 to 23), stating, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
In "Eternity in Their Hearts", http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830709258/103-6843006-5123035?vi=glance
Don Richardson wrote that all people have some ideas about God that have aspects of Christianity in them & that are used to bring them to Christ, if you get the book read about why Koreans are coming to Christ & what I found very interesting, about the pre-spanish Inca one god beliefs that are very similar to Akhenaten's reform of Egyptian belief. http://www.mfa.org/egypt/amarna/
Triads of gods, resurrection, sacrifice, baptism, & other ideas are spread around the world. Are those ideas borrowed by Christianity? Or has a fallen world only remembered parts of God's plan for salvation? Ask yourself, why do we have a part of our brain that seems to communicate with God? http://www.ksl.com/dump/news/cc/local/science_soul.php
And would we have enough information from this “God module” to figure out all of God's plans for us? Why does it seem that we have a hole that needs to be filled by spiritual things, like a jigsaw puzzle piece is missing? My contention is that only the Holy Spirit can fill it, but something like mormonism, islam, etc, seem to fit, it’s not just right but close enough to satisfy most people trapped there, if we push, tap or hammer it in.
My contention is that we, as Christians have all the puzzle pieces together or the right formula, more or less like Einstein’s famous equation " E=mc2 ",
As Christians we have E=mc2
an understanding of God, the universe & our place in it
pagans, hindus have
E, m, c, but no 2 (they can not see or understand the truth)
jews, muslims have E=mc
some truth, surrounded by blindness
cults have E=xmw
some truth, surrounded by many lies
But some may say, "if we got all this info from God, why did we forget it or change it? Why didn't it stay uncorrupted?
Yes, we are made in the image of God, but all have followed satan into sin. And as the "Father of Lies", we have been led astray in many basic truths. How did the serpent get Eve to try the forbidden fruit? By rephrasing what God had said to create doubt in her mind. As for Adam, well we all know that if a woman gives a man something (to eat is just one example), we take it & eat, weaklings that we are!
But wait!!! We have such wonderful memories & logical minds; we are not so easily duped or let astray!!!
Silly humans,
we know that killing is bad, yet we still do it,
we know that smoking is bad, but we still light up,
we know that cars pollute the environment, but off we drive in our little putt-putts
we can’t help ourselves in so many things.
We change everything; fashions, art, politics, beliefs,
even our language changes over time, try reading "Beowulf" in the original old English,
our notion of the universe has changed over time, notwithstanding the "flat worlders",
we can't even keep a story straight that we know is true, changing details in the re-telling, even I've done that, having to
correct myself on that I only made Staff Sergeant, not Tech (E-5, not E-6) in the Air Force. And that was only about 24 years ago!!!
http://www.tesarta.com/www/resources/library/militaryrank.html
Nehushta and all our mormon friends, ask yourselves, "What is truth?" And is Jesus the "TRUTH"?
Is paganism "truth"?
Mexicas use to sacrifice human hearts to keep the sun rising every day, is that truth?
Romans use to cut sheep’s intestines and auger messages form that, is that truth?
Spells and curses have been cast for magic, is that truth?
Roman Catholics used to sell "indulgences", is that truth?
islam claims all martyrs in jihad go to heaven, is that truth?
The LDS claims that all good mormons become gods, is that truth?
As Jesus says, "I am the way, and the truth and the life". Either that's true or Jesus and all of Christianity are liars.
You be the judge for yourself, and yes, pray about it, and may God ever bless you!!!
Shalom y'all!!!
Interesting notion Nehushta, but have you ever stopped to consider that maybe, since God created us in His image (spiritual image, not physical for all you mormons), all mankind shares some similar ideas about God? Paul even says that nature provides us with an understanding of God's qualities, in the Letter to the Romans (Ch. 1: verses 18 to 23), stating, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
In "Eternity in Their Hearts", http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830709258/103-6843006-5123035?vi=glance
Don Richardson wrote that all people have some ideas about God that have aspects of Christianity in them & that are used to bring them to Christ, if you get the book read about why Koreans are coming to Christ & what I found very interesting, about the pre-spanish Inca one god beliefs that are very similar to Akhenaten's reform of Egyptian belief. http://www.mfa.org/egypt/amarna/
Triads of gods, resurrection, sacrifice, baptism, & other ideas are spread around the world. Are those ideas borrowed by Christianity? Or has a fallen world only remembered parts of God's plan for salvation? Ask yourself, why do we have a part of our brain that seems to communicate with God? http://www.ksl.com/dump/news/cc/local/science_soul.php
And would we have enough information from this “God module” to figure out all of God's plans for us? Why does it seem that we have a hole that needs to be filled by spiritual things, like a jigsaw puzzle piece is missing? My contention is that only the Holy Spirit can fill it, but something like mormonism, islam, etc, seem to fit, it’s not just right but close enough to satisfy most people trapped there, if we push, tap or hammer it in.
My contention is that we, as Christians have all the puzzle pieces together or the right formula, more or less like Einstein’s famous equation " E=mc2 ",
As Christians we have E=mc2
an understanding of God, the universe & our place in it
pagans, hindus have
E, m, c, but no 2 (they can not see or understand the truth)
jews, muslims have E=mc
some truth, surrounded by blindness
cults have E=xmw
some truth, surrounded by many lies
But some may say, "if we got all this info from God, why did we forget it or change it? Why didn't it stay uncorrupted?
Yes, we are made in the image of God, but all have followed satan into sin. And as the "Father of Lies", we have been led astray in many basic truths. How did the serpent get Eve to try the forbidden fruit? By rephrasing what God had said to create doubt in her mind. As for Adam, well we all know that if a woman gives a man something (to eat is just one example), we take it & eat, weaklings that we are!
But wait!!! We have such wonderful memories & logical minds; we are not so easily duped or let astray!!!
Silly humans,
we know that killing is bad, yet we still do it,
we know that smoking is bad, but we still light up,
we know that cars pollute the environment, but off we drive in our little putt-putts
we can’t help ourselves in so many things.
We change everything; fashions, art, politics, beliefs,
even our language changes over time, try reading "Beowulf" in the original old English,
our notion of the universe has changed over time, notwithstanding the "flat worlders",
we can't even keep a story straight that we know is true, changing details in the re-telling, even I've done that, having to
correct myself on that I only made Staff Sergeant, not Tech (E-5, not E-6) in the Air Force. And that was only about 24 years ago!!!
http://www.tesarta.com/www/resources/library/militaryrank.html
Nehushta and all our mormon friends, ask yourselves, "What is truth?" And is Jesus the "TRUTH"?
Is paganism "truth"?
Mexicas use to sacrifice human hearts to keep the sun rising every day, is that truth?
Romans use to cut sheep’s intestines and auger messages form that, is that truth?
Spells and curses have been cast for magic, is that truth?
Roman Catholics used to sell "indulgences", is that truth?
islam claims all martyrs in jihad go to heaven, is that truth?
The LDS claims that all good mormons become gods, is that truth?
As Jesus says, "I am the way, and the truth and the life". Either that's true or Jesus and all of Christianity are liars.
You be the judge for yourself, and yes, pray about it, and may God ever bless you!!!
Shalom y'all!!!
L
Lamplighter
Guest
I'd just like to say that I'm impressed that Randolfo has chosen to adopt a somewhat more POSITIVE approach in his messages above (i.e., inviting Mormons to Christ instead of just attacking them and calling them names like "cultists"). Yes, he still has quite a way to go before one can say that he is unbiased or even open-minded towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I think he's taken a step in the right direction by becoming more positive. I know that I'm much more likely to listen to a person who calls me a "mormon friend" instead of a "cultist"! In fact, when I see the words "Mormon" and "cult" near one another, I assume it's yet another anti-Mormon bigot who doesn't know what he's talking about, and I get turned off to what he is saying before I even read his words.
I do believe that Randolfo is sincere in his belief that Mormonism is a "cult," even though he uses a specialized, non-standard definition of "cult" (i.e., people who claim to be Christian but don't believe in his own specific "brand" of Christianity). And I am impressed with his testimony that Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Mormons believe this also. Perhaps we have more in common than he thinks we do. Now if I could only persuade him to stop reading those darn anti-Mormon web sites and get the truth from those who know what they are talking about, I'd be getting somewhere. Do I dare hope that he will ever explore the FAIR Website or read the Book of Mormon with an open mind? Who knows? I didn't think he was even reasonable a week ago. Miracles do happen!
Peace.
I do believe that Randolfo is sincere in his belief that Mormonism is a "cult," even though he uses a specialized, non-standard definition of "cult" (i.e., people who claim to be Christian but don't believe in his own specific "brand" of Christianity). And I am impressed with his testimony that Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Mormons believe this also. Perhaps we have more in common than he thinks we do. Now if I could only persuade him to stop reading those darn anti-Mormon web sites and get the truth from those who know what they are talking about, I'd be getting somewhere. Do I dare hope that he will ever explore the FAIR Website or read the Book of Mormon with an open mind? Who knows? I didn't think he was even reasonable a week ago. Miracles do happen!
Peace.
I WON'T BE RETURNING AGAIN TO THIS FORUM!
My responce: nice spelling of response, btw.
answer by:
My responce:
[sarcasm=extreme]
Clever child!
[/sarcasm]
Duh^2. You must be unacquainted with logic or stupid if you think that there's ANY link at all between the two!
Look! I can make the same type of connection if i turn off my brain:
Statement: Both apples and oranges are types of fruit.
Randolphoian inference: That alone qualifies orchards as cattle ranches!
No need to reply since i won't be back to see it.
My responce: nice spelling of response, btw.
answer by:
My responce:
[sarcasm=extreme]
Clever child!
[/sarcasm]
Duh^2. You must be unacquainted with logic or stupid if you think that there's ANY link at all between the two!
Look! I can make the same type of connection if i turn off my brain:
Statement: Both apples and oranges are types of fruit.
Randolphoian inference: That alone qualifies orchards as cattle ranches!
No need to reply since i won't be back to see it.
Last edited:
Me in a topic line:
Randolpho being a weener:
:bugeye:
As if!...
It was a private joke, dingleberry.
It is a direct immitation of a student poem cited by the author in the book "Writing Down The Bones".
The students were assigned to write a poem in any form on any topic they wanted. One wrote something very similar to that subject line. You just have to make a simple substitution to get the gist.
Use "masturbation" for "Randolpho".
I had just been thinking that what you do here is pretty much mental masturbation.
But what about you're response? Seems to be quite clear that you don't give a rat's patootie about what's said here as long as you think you've scored some sort of victory: childish!
The suposedly brainwashed 11,000,000+ (rapidly rising #) people around the world who are mormons mostly followed Moroni's promise (as Lamplighter as often mentioned) to pray with sincerety and faith and God will make it known that the Book of Mormon is true. They KNOW. So all the arguments you can make are pointless to them.
One of you bozos said somewhere that other religions claim similar things and used that as a reason for blowing off the promise. Interesting that none of you have tried out what may be the only way of obtaining proof. If you spent some time and it didn't work, you'd have wasted a little time.
But what if it worked? Oh crap! Couldn't take that! Yikes! The very thought that you might become the type of person you've criticized so much on all those "intellectual" (term used loosely) grounds could mess up your whole world.
Been said a lot that there's no proof for or against God. Mormons don't talk about it much, but many, especially converts, have had that personal reassurance from God, and many have also seen "miraculous" things accomplished by priesthood power, or at pivotal moments in their spiritual life.
Have to admit that my being a bit of a mess in some ways, and believing strongly in that promise, is enough to spook me.
You can say and quote as many picky negatives, failings, and inconsistencies about the church as you want, but i've personally seen it turn the lives of many many folks who were a complete disaster in one way or another into the most extraordinarily exceptional people i've met. Often a 180 degree change in a matter of a couple years. Actually, many of the people whom i've admired most, i've later learned are LDS.
LDS church also sends millions of $s a year in relief to sites of natural disasters around the world without regard to whether the involved countries are allies or have the right politics.
Meanwhile televangelists spend their extra money to buy bigger business jets and homes and vacations. So if it isn't true, even then, i say the positive effects on communities and individuals makes the organization worth having around.
-----------------
I read some more comments around here about the Book of Mormon being a work of fiction. Has no one read "The Book of Mormon-Artifact or Artifice" by Orson Scott Card? Geez, it's one little chapter in his book "A Storyteller in Zion"!
He gives very straight-forward, carefully researched, well thought out reasons from an author's point of view, why neither Joseph Smith nor anyone else in his time and place could have written the book! It's the best treatment of that issue that i've read.
Well. So long. Again, i make my exit from this forum for an indefinite period of time.
Randolpho being a weener:
:bugeye:As if!...
It was a private joke, dingleberry.
It is a direct immitation of a student poem cited by the author in the book "Writing Down The Bones".
The students were assigned to write a poem in any form on any topic they wanted. One wrote something very similar to that subject line. You just have to make a simple substitution to get the gist.
Use "masturbation" for "Randolpho".
I had just been thinking that what you do here is pretty much mental masturbation.
But what about you're response? Seems to be quite clear that you don't give a rat's patootie about what's said here as long as you think you've scored some sort of victory: childish!
The suposedly brainwashed 11,000,000+ (rapidly rising #) people around the world who are mormons mostly followed Moroni's promise (as Lamplighter as often mentioned) to pray with sincerety and faith and God will make it known that the Book of Mormon is true. They KNOW. So all the arguments you can make are pointless to them.
One of you bozos said somewhere that other religions claim similar things and used that as a reason for blowing off the promise. Interesting that none of you have tried out what may be the only way of obtaining proof. If you spent some time and it didn't work, you'd have wasted a little time.
But what if it worked? Oh crap! Couldn't take that! Yikes! The very thought that you might become the type of person you've criticized so much on all those "intellectual" (term used loosely) grounds could mess up your whole world.
Been said a lot that there's no proof for or against God. Mormons don't talk about it much, but many, especially converts, have had that personal reassurance from God, and many have also seen "miraculous" things accomplished by priesthood power, or at pivotal moments in their spiritual life.
Have to admit that my being a bit of a mess in some ways, and believing strongly in that promise, is enough to spook me.
You can say and quote as many picky negatives, failings, and inconsistencies about the church as you want, but i've personally seen it turn the lives of many many folks who were a complete disaster in one way or another into the most extraordinarily exceptional people i've met. Often a 180 degree change in a matter of a couple years. Actually, many of the people whom i've admired most, i've later learned are LDS.
LDS church also sends millions of $s a year in relief to sites of natural disasters around the world without regard to whether the involved countries are allies or have the right politics.
Meanwhile televangelists spend their extra money to buy bigger business jets and homes and vacations. So if it isn't true, even then, i say the positive effects on communities and individuals makes the organization worth having around.
-----------------
I read some more comments around here about the Book of Mormon being a work of fiction. Has no one read "The Book of Mormon-Artifact or Artifice" by Orson Scott Card? Geez, it's one little chapter in his book "A Storyteller in Zion"!
He gives very straight-forward, carefully researched, well thought out reasons from an author's point of view, why neither Joseph Smith nor anyone else in his time and place could have written the book! It's the best treatment of that issue that i've read.
Well. So long. Again, i make my exit from this forum for an indefinite period of time.
pumpkins quoting somebody:
pumpkins shooting off his mouth:
Hmm. It's been a while but i've read quite a few things about scientific discoveries which pointed to places, things, and events at least coming fairly close to aspects of the Book of Mormon.
(no, they weren't by LDS researchers, but researchers of the LDS)
pumpkins shooting off his mouth:
Hmm. It's been a while but i've read quite a few things about scientific discoveries which pointed to places, things, and events at least coming fairly close to aspects of the Book of Mormon.
(no, they weren't by LDS researchers, but researchers of the LDS)
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
Ok, Mr. Logicus, explain the difference? Did you mean researchers who happen to be mormons? Or is that another of your inside jokes? Hmmm?
BTW, most branches of science have or try to have verifiable proof of their findings, have review committees & societies and publish in peer-reviewed journals. In the fields of archeology, anthropology and history; most findings get placed in some museum or are sent out in multi-city tours such as has happened many times for Egyptian items. When the BoM ends up in a major display at the Smithsonian or the Field Museum or BoM sites get validated by a major State or Mexican university archeology department or other evidence comes to light of pre-columbian european or asiatic occupation in those said sites, I'll take notice & say, "Hmmm, maybe that J. Smith did have something after all?".
Now, Dr. Logicus, please reveal the magazines, articles or links to your claim of BoM discoveries. Since it's been awhile, just the name of claimed site &/or magazine will do, we can check info provided. Thanks.
By the way, I usually keep items like that by clipping out the newspaper articles, the magazine itself or e-filing them, how do you save info that verifies your ideas or beliefs or is just plain interesting?
If all your sources are FARMS, FAIR or BYU, sorry that won't stand up as verifiable evidence, they are not reviewed by unbiased or impartial committees or even subject to peer-reviewed journals, let's see if any of those articles were reprinted by any major journal and then affirming that any BoM claims were true.
If none of your sources are subject to peer-reviewed journals, my suggestion to you or anyone else that wants to prove the BoM true, would be to join FARMS or sign up for a BYU archeology dig in Mesoamerica & start publishing your research in major journals. (not just by the mormon press, meant for mormon eyes only)
And by close, what do you mean by close? That there were varied and mighty civilizations here in the pre-columbian past? That ancient indians spoke & wrote 'egyptian'? That there are ancient sites buried here? What? Tell us!!!
BTW, I decided to test one claim years ago, the Smithsonian's response to a question I sent them, is reprinted below:
(Notice date, this form
letter may be in response
to an April Fool's article?)
The question I sent the Smithsonian is reprinted below: