Mormon Teachings

[Marlin]

I found about two or three (small town!) reasonably intelligent works regarding the history of your church, John Smith. From what I read, and have heard from Mormons, and have seen written in the Book of Mormon, I have come to the opinion that I have, an 'informed' opinion.

An "informed opinion" would include the actual name of the founder of the religion, wouldn't it? It was Joseph Smith, not John Smith. I encourage you to investigate Mormonism further. Read the Book of Mormon, and then you will truly have an informed opinion about it.

 

[nameless]

Simple error.
It was this second-hand keyboard. I knew that his name was Joseph! Hahahahaa...
I have read enough, along with the others to have enough information for an informed opinion.
You can look at the exact information I have, and form a completely different 'informed' opinion.
No 'right', no 'wrong'.
Whatever works...
Peace

 

[nameless]

But I really wish that you guys would stop littering the world with those damn Watchtower and Awake, etc.. magazines all over the place. It is littering!

 

[nameless]

But I really wish that you guys would stop littering the world with those damn Watchtower and Awake, etc.. magazines all over the place. It is littering!

Hey, you idiot, thats the Jehovah's Witnesses NOT the Mormons!

 

[nameless]

Hey, you idiot, thats the Jehovah's Witnesses NOT the Mormons!

That was humor, fool!

 

[Jenyar]

Oh no! Whatever shall I do if you think that?

2 Nephi 26:33

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth• them all• to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth• none that come unto him, black and white, bond• and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen•; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

I thought Africans only came to America in the 17th century, with Dutch settlers? When was Nephi written?

 

[Marlin]

I thought Africans only came to America in the 17th century, with Dutch settlers? When was Nephi written?

Nephi was about 600 B.C.E. I speak out of ignorance, but Nephi was (probably) familiar with blacks in the Old World--weren't the Egyptians and Ethiopians black?

 

[Nisus]

Nephi was about 600 B.C.E. I speak out of ignorance, but Nephi was (probably) familiar with blacks in the Old World--weren't the Egyptians and Ethiopians black?

hahah.... good thing they have you to clarify Marlin, if not they'd continue believing falsehoods.

And they just keep bringing them one after another. I wonder if they will realize through this these two things;

1) If they try and bring another thing up, they'll just be wrong again. The pattern is becoming obvious, I don't even know why people are talking at this point. They can look back and see how many times they speak out of context and ignorance.

2) Either their minds are making up lies, or they are reading someone elses lies.

 

[Marlin]

hahah.... good thing they have you to clarify Marlin, if not they'd continue believing falsehoods.

And they just keep bringing them one after another. I wonder if they will realize through this these two things;

1) If they try and bring another thing up, they'll just be wrong again. The pattern is becoming obvious, I don't even know why people are talking at this point. They can look back and see how many times they speak out of context and ignorance.

2) Either their minds are making up lies, or they are reading someone elses lies.

Frankly, this is a growth experience for me. I have never had so many people want to know so much about my religion at once, nor has there ever been so much diversity in the timbre of the anti-Mormon crowd. We really have to stay on our toes around these parts!

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Oh no! Whatever shall I do if you think that?

2 Nephi 26:33

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth• them all• to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth• none that come unto him, black and white, bond• and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen•; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

I thought Africans only came to America in the 17th century, with Dutch settlers? When was Nephi written?I thought Africans only came to America in the 17th century, with Dutch settlers? When was Nephi written?

thats interesting on 3 counts:
1) in the OT the term nations would be "Gentiles"
2) in the NT the term nations would be "Greeks"
3) not sure race is ever discussed in specific terms in the Bible, only "races" as a general term, "no specifics"

to use the term "black & white" after all that would imply:
1) a US context
2) the BoM is a document of its time (1820's USA)
3) Joe Smith was not a prophet, but a novelist

touche Jenyar

 

[Marlin]

to use the term "black & white" after all that would imply:
1) a US context
2) the BoM is a document of its time (1820's USA)
3) Joe Smith was not a prophet, but a novelist

touche Jenyar

Bzzzzt! Try again, Randy love. Do you even know what a "translation" is? Sometimes when translating, the translator will use modern words to describe ancient things. Thus, if Nephi originally said "Gentiles" when he meant "non-Israelite nations," Joseph Smith may have simply translated "Gentiles" as the word "nations." And so on and so forth. "Black and white" describes two races of ancient times (and modern times) in our own modern terms.

You might as well get on Joseph Smith's case for translating "goodbye" as "adieu" and claim that the Nephites never knew the French word "adieu." The same argument applies--modern words for ancient ideas that don't translate well.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Bzzzzt! Try again, Randy love.

my dearest Sally, let me correct you just a bit here:

Do you even know what a "translation" is? Sometimes when translating, the translator will use modern words to describe ancient things. Thus, if Nephi originally said "Gentiles" when he meant "non-Israelite nations," Joseph Smith may have simply translated "Gentiles" as the word "nations." And so on and so forth.

let me answer this way:
http://french.about.com/cs/translation/a/introduction.htm

Translation is written - it involves taking a written text (such as a book or an article) and translating it in writing into the target language.

Interpretation is oral - it refers to listening to something spoken (a speech or phone conversation) and interpreting it orally into the target language.

http://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/unseens/seminars/greenwood.html

Issues raised in discussion
Ideologies of translation
What is a translation? What should a (good) translation be?
A replication of the text, or a new text?

Black and white" describes two races of ancient times (and modern times) in our own modern terms.

the Bible & BoM have this view of race
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/amo009.htm

9:7 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cush

Cush (כּוּשׁ "black", Standard Hebrew Kuš, Tiberian Hebrew Kûš) was the eldest son of Ham, brother of Canaan and the father of Nimrod, mentioned in the "table of nations" in the Book of Genesis (X. 60) and in I Chronicles (I. 8), usually considered the eponym of the people of Kush. Six Arabian tribes are also sons of Cush.

http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/5/21#21

21 21 And he had caused the acursing• to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and bdelightsome•, that they might not be centicing unto my people the Lord God did cause a dskin• of eblackness• to come upon them.

You might as well get on Joseph Smith's case for translating "goodbye" as "adieu" and claim that the Nephites never knew the French word "adieu."

since you brought it up, put “adieu” into this
http://translation2.paralink.com/
then ask yourself, why would a so-called prophet be using a "french" word, to translate from the so-called "reformed egyptian" into American english? does the French translation of the BoM say "goodbye" for 'adieu'? if he was directed by god, why the snobby pretense of using a Shakespearean affectation? was he putting on a hoax, seeing how far he could go with 'gullible' morons, I mean "moroni's", rhymes with balonies

The same argument applies--modern words for ancient ideas that don't translate well.

I guess you're right, we could never find a word in plain english for "adieu", je suis désolé de dire, mon ami

 

[hug-a-tree]

Oh boy, my mom and dad are Mormon. I always like hearing about the religion. I never really go to church or anything. If there is a heaven and hell I'm so going to hell. I'm not sure if there really is even a God.
I'm not a big fan of Joseph Smith. He really bugs me actually. I've read about him *eck*, and even though me parents believe him to be a prophet-I don't.
I don't believe in the book of Mormon, but I don't mind people believing in it. Most of the Mormons I know are real down to earth, nice people.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Oh boy, my mom and dad are Mormon.

boy, that's being stuck in a hard place if they ever try pressuring you

I always like hearing about the religion.

I do to, its sort of like a sci fi adventure with a religious core, its evolving into some new morplike semi-christianity, the background story of Kobol & the counsel of gods, is probably why "Battlestar Galactica" is so popular, its "sci fi" while we were still in wagon trains, so I guess Joe Smith was a real prophet of a sorts after all (in 'sci fi')

I never really go to church or anything. If there is a heaven and hell I'm so going to hell. I'm not sure if there really is even a God.

God can forgive anyone, if they are sincere. I also hear most mormons that leave the church, also leave religion because you are 'taught' that mormonism is the only truth, all others are lies, abominations, so that they do not try christianity, but stay away

I'm not a big fan of Joseph Smith. He really bugs me actually. I've read about him
*eck*, and even though me parents believe him to be a prophet-I don't.

quite a character, I like the polygamy part (I could never do it, its hard enough just dealing with one woman at a time (but 28?)), just wonder if he got that idea from Mohammad or if he thought of that all on his own

I don't believe in the book of Mormon, but I don't mind people believing in it.

me neither on both counts, I just won't let them make-believe that they are Christian unopposed, so I'll say something, if they do

Most of the Mormons I know are real down to earth, nice people.

I agree, those that I've met in person are nice, though 2 may not have liked me much afterwards, 1 that I caught wearing a T-shirt with a Mayan glyph, & a "faked" translation that supposedly said, "it shall come to pass". This at a time before Mayan was barely being deciphered (1983)
see here:
http://www.ancientscripts.com/maya.html
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500281335/102-0514438-3594564?v=glance&n=283155
http://www.globecorner.com/t/t34/17454.php

when I called him on it, he changed the T-shirt to plain white about 10 minutes later

The other, I wrote a poem to, I got her upset & the poem mentioned that I was apologizing for getting her "goat", (sort of) since I never meant to hurt her feelings (sort of)

 

[hug-a-tree]

boy, that's being stuck in a hard place if they ever try pressuring

Nah, my parents don't pressure me too much about being mormon. As a matter of fact I'm catholic. I'm not a devout catholic or anything though. My mom used to be Catholic as well.

 

[hug-a-tree]

Wild blue yonder, if you don't mind me asking. Are you Mormon? Just wondering.

 

[cole grey]

Sorry brutus, but some of the things you say have made me think mormons are as wacky as the fundies teach.
However I know a couple of very down to earth mormons who blinked and said, "what kind of crap is that" when I started talking about becoming Gods, etc.
All in all you can't judge a person by their current belief system, and I use "current" quite on purpose when talking about people's philosophical and religious beliefs.

 

[hug-a-tree]

Sorry brutus, but some of the things you say have made me think mormons are as wacky as the fundies teach.
However I know a couple of very down to earth mormons who blinked and said, "what kind of crap is that" when I started talking about becoming Gods, etc.

Yeah, that's what they believe. About becoming a God, I mean. It's not really all that bad. They look at it as...well when you grow up you become like your parents. You become an adult, you can pay bills, you make your own children etc. God is our father, so I guess that makes sense if we become like him as well. Personally I think it's not all the crazy.

 

[cole grey]

I'm not much like my earthly father, or my heavenly father to be honest.
They are both perfect survivors.

What happens to the mormons who become gods, they then have to become trinities and have the "son" die? No, obviously.
I just think the idea of having someone who rides around on their bike in a uniform evolve into a god, other than in the hindu or buddhist fashion of becoming unified with God, is silly.

 

[Kerry Shirts]

Becoming divine is certainly a Biblical doctrine, as well as the ancient Jewish view, according to some very recent scholarship on this topic. A fascinating subject.......

Best,
Kerry