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Mormon Teachings
- Thread starter Brutus1964
- Start date
water said:What is the measure of a "broken heart and a contrite spirit"?
Can this be measured outwardly, by other people?
If not, how are people to recognize the one who has divine priesthood authority?
I think that only God can "measure" the degree of one's commitment to living the gospel. It's the spirit of the law that is more important, anyway, rather than the letter of the law. How to recognize one who has Priesthood authority? Well, I think that the adage "By their fruits ye shall know them" applies, as well as personal revelation within one's heart.
Marlin,
Behaviour can be faked. How am I to know whether Gordon B. Hinckley isn't just a really good actor?
But for this, one must be a Mormon, right?
I think that only God can "measure" the degree of one's commitment to living the gospel. It's the spirit of the law that is more important, anyway, rather than the letter of the law.
How to recognize one who has Priesthood authority? Well, I think that the adage "By their fruits ye shall know them" applies,
Behaviour can be faked. How am I to know whether Gordon B. Hinckley isn't just a really good actor?
as well as personal revelation within one's heart.
But for this, one must be a Mormon, right?
water said:Behaviour can be faked. How am I to know whether Gordon B. Hinckley isn't just a really good actor?
But for this, one must be a Mormon, right?
No, anyone may receive personal revelation from God for their own benefit and edification. The logic goes:
If the Book of Mormon is true,
Then Joseph Smith was a true prophet,
and
If Joseph Smith was a true prophet,
Then the Church he founded is true,
and
The LDS General Authorities and prophets are also true prophets.
God is willing and eager to provide anyone who asks with this testimony, provided they do the studying, reading and praying necessary for this understanding. Personal revelation is for everyone.
Marlin said:No, anyone may receive personal revelation from God for their own benefit and edification. The logic goes:
If the Book of Mormon is true,
Then Joseph Smith was a true prophet,
and
If Joseph Smith was a true prophet,
Then the Church he founded is true,
and
The LDS General Authorities and prophets are also true prophets.
God is willing and eager to provide anyone who asks with this testimony, provided they do the studying, reading and praying necessary for this understanding. Personal revelation is for everyone.
And if anyone receives a personal revelation saying that the Book of Mormon is not true and that Joseph Smith was not a prophet,
then
this
person
is
lying
!!
Right?
Marlin said:Probably honest but deceived, since God doesn't send false revelations.
Whatever. All you are saying is that one has to be a Mormon to know the truth. Or one is a liar. If I get you on a kind day, you say "deceived", instead of "liar".
The only true revelation is that that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet! And any other revelation is not from God.
Sheesh, God, listen. You better behave. Those Mormons are having some toughies for you.
water said:Whatever. All you are saying is that one has to be a Mormon to know the truth. Or one is a liar. If I get you on a kind day, you say "deceived", instead of "liar".
The only true revelation is that that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet! And any other revelation is not from God.
Let me give you an analogy, using your own words but with a truth you know to be true:
Marlin: 2+2=4. If you get someone saying that 2+2=5, that is a falsehood and you are deceived if you believe it.
water: Whatever. All you are saying is that one has to be a math student to know the truth. Or one is a liar, or deceived. The only true math formula is that 2+2=4! And any other solution for that equation is not a true theorem! How wacky is that???
========
The point is, truth is truth, and error is error. I cannot change the fact that Mormonism is true and that God will bear witness of it, regardless of how many people say it's not and He won't.
Mormonism is a failed attempt to breathe life into a dead philosophy. Jesus had some profound things to say, but they were almost entirely ignored, and the ignorance codified into orthodox Christian theology. Mormanism is an imitation of an imitation.
Marlin said:Let me give you an analogy, using your own words but with a truth you know to be true:
Marlin: 2+2=4. If you get someone saying that 2+2=5, that is a falsehood and you are deceived if you believe it.
water: Whatever. All you are saying is that one has to be a math student to know the truth. Or one is a liar, or deceived. The only true math formula is that 2+2=4! And any other solution for that equation is not a true theorem! How wacky is that???
You are distorting, misrepresenting my position.
The point is, truth is truth, and error is error. I cannot change the fact that Mormonism is true and that God will bear witness of it, regardless of how many people say it's not and He won't.
This says it all.
Truth is what Mormons say to be true. Period.
This is your position.
And you are willing to insist on it until I, and others posting here, become insane, or leave.
Marlin said:water, I'm sure you will agree that the truth is out there, whatever it may be, right?
And if so, perhaps someone has the truth? Is it such a stretch to say that a certain religious belief system is true, even if it is Mormonism?
You have been shown, on various levels and fields, that your arguments are bogus.
Mormonism extracts its self-importance and identity out of insisting they have the full truth, out of insisting they have arrived.
A person believing in an almighty God would not come up with such insolence.
Marlin said:Insolence? Mormons are obeying Almighty God with our doctrines, which we have received by revelation from God Himself.
... And YOU have declared that your doctrines are revealed to you by God.
...
This can go on forever.
water said:This can go on forever.
No it couldn't.
Shoudn't every church's every doctrine be dictated by God? Or should people just run around willy nilly making up there own doctrine, until there's over 300,000 christian denominations? Oh wait. That's what's happening now. Good thing God stepped in and restored his churchwater said:And YOU have declared that your doctrines are revealed to you by God.
The Goose said:Shoudn't every church's every doctrine be dictated by God? Or should people just run around willy nilly making up there own doctrine, until there's over 300,000 christian denominations? Oh wait. That's what's happening now. Good thing God stepped in and restored his church
What makes you so sure your church is from God?
You are mixing up covenant and law. Both have the same purpose, but one addresses our actions, while the other describes God's actions.Marlin said:The Law of Moses demanded physical ritual sacrifices, but was "weak and useless" to fully save its practitioners because it didn't require the heart. "To obey is better than to sacrifice," says the scripture.
The awareness that ritual sacrifice wasn't enough was already there long before Christ came along, and the prophets made sure everyone heard it. You say the law didn't require heart. But the law was "Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength" (Deut. 6:5; Joshua 22:5) and "Love your neighbour as yourself" (Lev. 19:18) - Jesus only confirmed this, adding that "all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments". So the law did require heart. The weakness was that we could not supply it - laws written on stone created hearts of stone, and we could not obey the words of the covenant. We didn't have the heart, and that made every attempt to meet God's requirements insufficient.
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
So did the old covenant. But it was insufficient because it depended on men.The new covenant required a sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, with a full commitment to living the gospel, rather than just killing animals. The Law of Moses was unable to fully save anyone, yet it was given to the Israelites because they couldn't handle the higher law. Thus the "former regulations" (the Law of Moses) weren't enough to bestow eternal life on anyone, but rather they pointed ahead to Christ in anticipation of the higher laws being given.
Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
If the Israelites under the direction and authority of Moses, Aaron and the Levites were unable to meet its requirements, how much less would we be able to meet the intention of the law - the "higher" law Jesus explained in His sermon on the Mount? Our righteousness would have to surpass even the teachers of the law! And Jesus did not abolish this law, He just fulfilled it (Matt. 5:17).For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
The law and prophets pointed to Christ, certainly, but not to even higher laws than the ones we already could not handle. The knowledge of more righteous laws does not make someone more able to meet them (i.e. a more righteous person), that was their weakness. Laws point out sin, but cannot make us righteous.
Romans 3:20-22
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
(Phil. 3:8-10) What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
(Phil. 3:8-10) What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
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