Mormon Teachings

[Jenyar]

Kerry,

You can access facsimilies of the original papyri and their translation here. You can even see where Joseph Smith tried to restore missing sections. Hope that helps.

 

[Kerry Shirts]

Thanks Jenyar.........yeah, I am well aware of these folks though. See Here to see what I mean. I disagree fundamentally with their stance, and I believe I have a bit more materials, understanding, and grasps of the issues, and have dealt with far more Egyptological evidences than they do.

http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/papyri.htm

Best,
Kerry

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Go read the BofM and tell me where it begins.........where they are, who they are, etc. What their culture baggage is, the political milieu they came out of, what assumptions about prophets and scriptures and wars were from, who they had to read, and contend with, i.e. what other cultures were around them, interacting with them etc. When you get that part correct, we can begin.

Best,
Kerry

you are under the mistaken assumption that you control this discussion, you may be a teacher or scholar in real life, but as an LDS missionary, you rate only one step lower than Star Trek nerds in full costume (you should see me with my pointy ears, I make such a dashing Vulcan)

if you don't think we're equals, then are you sure you're on the right board? shouldn't you be in Archeology, Biblical Archeology or KMT online?

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/
http://www.bib-arch.org/
http://www.egyptology.com/kmt/

or try one of these:
http://www.cirs-tm.org/media-eng.php?matiere=archaeology

 

[WildBlueYonder]

“ Kerry:
LOL! I take it you haven't a clue about Greek eh? ”

Where do you come up with these braintwisted idiot interpretations of what I say? Where have I *ever* claimed to be some sort of a Greek scholar?

You have arms, legs, and a brain, use them to learn for yourself what you wish. I am here teaching you about Mormonism because of your snide attitude towards it.

Hey Kerry Shirts, you’re a good replacement for bishop Marlin, I’m trying to figure you out after a few run-ins with you, & I do say, a crafty fellow you are; using a multi-track attack in your posts-insult me, question my knowledge, skill, scholarship, understanding, feign with a softer side with philosophy questions, & the ‘coup de grace’, invite me to a Bible study. (just in case you hook me, I guess?)

Me, I’ll stick to 2 tacks; Bible-based & science-based, since the BoM is a foundation document for the LDS, I’ll question both Joe Smith & the BoM. I realize that just with that, you’ll have your hands full within just those 2 areas.

To answer your question from an earlier post, on what would it take to get me to become a baptized LDS?
well, though a Jarite, Laminite or Nephite find would be a great start toward proving the BoM true, I’m not a Hittite for a reason, the Hittite religion was not Bible-based, for years archeologists have brought it to light, so that anyone can explore its various wonders, so you need both Bible-based & science-based to sway me

If you don’t mind, we should follow 2 rules; cite sources (if making outrageous claims or if asked) & stick to the topic, fair enough?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Do you have sources, so I can see just how far you have looked into this? I disagree that Abraham is not involved with the facsimiles, and I have the Egyptological materials to show that. I presented at the Sunstone Symposium this last August on just this topic. So I have the materials to discuss, I just need to see what yours are.

whoa, nealy, I hit the big time, the mormons sic'ed a big shot apologist on little ol’ me, I'm so flattered

http://mormoninquiry.typepad.com/mormon_inquiry/2005/08/sunstone_sympos.html
Then Dallas did his own summary post. Highlights: reflections on Hoffman (a packed session), a Sunstone town meeting (explaining why Martha Nibley Beck wasn't invited), and Joseph as Egyptologist (by a noted LDS apologist, suggesting Sunstone is throwing out an olive leaf of sorts).
http://dallas.typepad.com/slant/2005/08/symposium_thoug.html
Joseph Smith as Egyptologist by Kerry Shirts.
I really liked this session. It was a presentation that one would expect at a FAIR or FARMS conference, so it was a breath of fresh air to have more of this kind of thing at Sunstone. Shirts basically defended portions of Smith's translations of the Book of Abraham facsimiles. It was highly detailed with lots of overheads. Shirts was an engaging speaker, and made some convincing arguements about the Book of Abraham. I would really like to see his stuff published in a journal or book.

 

[Kerry Shirts]

WBY:
you are under the mistaken assumption that you control this discussion, you may be a teacher or scholar in real life, but as an LDS missionary, you rate only one step lower than Star Trek nerds in full costume (you should see me with my pointy ears, I make such a dashing Vulcan)

LOL! No mistake here. Since I believe I can handle your objections just fine, I see no reason whatever to make sure you come to the table with correct information first, so we can make progress.

 

[Kerry Shirts]

WBY:
whoa, nealy, I hit the big time, the mormons sic'ed a big shot apologist on little ol’ me, I'm so flattered

Oh calm down young un.....no one came and got me to handle you. I found this place all by myself...........

Wanna hear the NICE part about this? I have a DVD of the entire session, including the heckler at the end..........I sell em for a minimal fee, and then you too can see just why he said what he said.
The president of Sunstone also called me a month later, and said it was the finest presentation he has had in years, and has already penciled me in for next year on more of the same topic. I am also getting my presentation published in the Sunstone magazine next year.........on the BofAbr, and the facsimiles? Oh yes, I have decades under my belt with Egyptological literatures read, articles written, websites developed, and books in the works........

 

[Kerry Shirts]

WBY:
Me, I’ll stick to 2 tacks; Bible-based & science-based, since the BoM is a foundation document for the LDS, I’ll question both Joe Smith & the BoM. I realize that just with that, you’ll have your hands full within just those 2 areas.

Fair enough............... I'm game...........I just finished my second 500 pages of reading in the Zohar this week, and I'm ready to work some in the Bible with you.......

 

[cole grey]

kerry - so, do you believe that you can become a God, and if so, what difference is there between the God you can become and the God we have here now?

 

[Kerry Shirts]

Hi Cole.......actually I lean a little to the Eastern view on some things. We are already Gods, we just don't remember. But we are having, what I call, "a limiting experience," for this life, so we can see what it's like as well.

The difference is one of degree, not kind. This is very powerfully understood by the Jewish sages of their Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuv'im as well. Echoes from ancient times continually unfold to us, the more we find of the ancients' scriptures whether in the sands and dust of the Dead Sea caves, or the fields in Nag Hammadi Egypt, the ancients' truths that we can become like our Creator is exhilirating......it's the whole point of existence.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

LOL! No mistake here. Since I believe I can handle your objections just fine, I see no reason whatever to make sure you come to the table with correct information first, so we can make progress.

you're too funny, trying to imply you have the only correct info here, whilst little ol' me, why I just have my poor ol' secondhand backwoods misinformed info. I am so touched that you came all the way from your mountaintop just to visit us mere mortals, thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

[Kerry Shirts]

WBY:
you're too funny, trying to imply you have the only correct info here, whilst little ol' me, why I just have my poor ol' secondhand backwoods misinformed info. I am so touched that you came all the way from your mountaintop just to visit us mere mortals, thank you, thank you, thank you!

I'm always grateful when I can amuse the riff raff.......
Yes, your assumptions on the BofM right off the start certainly are wrong. I can't go on and make sense of it until you correct them, assuming you *are* interested in being truthful about things, instead of merely stirring up ugly bigotry. I can't imagine a real Christian doing such...........

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I'm always grateful when I can amuse the riff raff....... :-D
Yes, your assumptions on the BofM right off the start certainly are wrong. I can't go on and make sense of it until you correct them, assuming you *are* interested in being truthful about things, instead of merely stirring up ugly bigotry. I can't imagine a real Christian doing such...........

Ok, have you finished your name-calling, preening, posing, prancing & dancing? & let’s get down to business, shall we?
Since you’re an expert on the BoA, would you prefer to defend that instead of the BoM as previously discussed? Your choice

If you are really using your real name here, would you mind pointing to your website, so we get a feel for the person you are? Did you post your curriculum vitae? How many years of Egyptian did you take? Are you an Egyptologist or are you an amateur, an enthusiast, a hobbyist or what?? Where have you studied? what digs have you gone on? Where have you done your research? Have you presented anywhere else than the friendly confines of LDS research (Sunstone)? I would imagine that anyone claiming & then proving that J. S. could translate Egyptian symbolism into whole books, would be widely published? Don’t you think?

BTW, lets get this straight first; is the papyri given back to the LDS church by the NY Metropolitan Museum in 1967, a fraud, a hoax or the actual item that J.S. used to translate the BoA?& is it your contention that he only used those papyri he bought, his syllabary & God’s help to translate from Egyptian to English, as evidenced by the BoA?

That feat by J.S. reminds me of 2 diff examples; that if anyone knew the symbolism in the idol of the Virgin of Guadalupe, they could conceivably write whole books on that, the angels, the moon & the stars, the smile, etc…, or maybe its like in the movie “Contact” where reams of info were stored into the data-stream of the ”message”? So, did J.S. create whole sentences out of single words & symbols? is that what you say J.S. did?

I was reading my copy of “Archaeology” (Jan/Feb 2006 edition) & on pages 56 & 57 you were not listed as a presenter, why is that? They have a wide range of topics covered, you should be able get bookings too, or are you like James Spader in “Stargate”, having a hard time convincing the established academics that J.S. was able to translate Egyptian?

I was thinking about 2 things you said; that I read the BoM cover to cover first & then get back to you, that on its face seems like a very reasonable idea, except that many people view the BoM as a work of fiction (I think it’s Sci-Fi, which could have been titled, “The Ancient Jews in the Americas” or the “Mange of Western Starlight”), it has no connection whatsoever to any part of the Western Hemisphere’s history until about 1830 when it was first published. The other thing was whether I knew any Greek? The short answer is “no”, but luckily there is a wealth of info available to use in deciphering any hard words, concepts or ideas, I’ll be using “ilumina”, if you don’t mind & the Internet for others

A little about me, I’m a Mexican that speaks English & Spanish quite well, took 3 semesters of field archeology,1 of physical anthro, 1 of cultural anthro, 1 of archeo, 2 semesters of French, 1 of Hebrew. I can read & understand maybe 80% of Latin via cognates from English & Spanish, Greek about 10% via the same route, plus frats & sororities. Egyptian by an old encyclopedia & my handy-dandy symbol wheel I bought at the LA County Museum of Art when the “Treasures of Egypt” exhibit was there. So, I’m armed & dangerous, let’s go

 

[Kerry Shirts]

I haven't danced and pranced......I have simply been correcting your wildly incorrect assumptions about things in the LDS scriptures. But sure, lets go. I already have a post on the Internal consistency of the BofM up for you to peruse and take apart and show that it is all fluff in the wind.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I haven't danced and pranced......I have simply been correcting your wildly incorrect assumptions about things in the LDS scriptures. But sure, lets go.

could you answer this first?

BTW, lets get this straight first; is the papyri given back to the LDS church by the NY Metropolitan Museum in 1967, a fraud, a hoax or the actual item that J.S. used to translate the BoA?& is it your contention that he only used those papyri he bought, his syllabary & God’s help to translate from Egyptian to English, as evidenced by the BoA?

I already have a post on the Internal consistency of the BofM up for you to peruse and take apart and show that it is all fluff in the wind.

so, are you saying that the BoM was never edited or corrected, since it was first published in 1830?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Wanna hear the NICE part about this? I have a DVD of the entire session, including the heckler at the end..........I sell em for a minimal fee, and then you too can see just why he said what he said.

thanks, I'll wait for the online version

The president of Sunstone also called me a month later, and said it was the finest presentation he has had in years, and has already penciled me in for next year on more of the same topic. I am also getting my presentation published in the Sunstone magazine next year.........on the BofAbr, and the facsimiles? Oh yes, I have decades under my belt with Egyptological literatures read, articles written, websites developed, and books in the works........

good for you, could you answer following?

would you mind pointing to your website, so we get a feel for the person you are? Did you post your curriculum vitae? How many years of Egyptian did you take? Are you an Egyptologist or are you an amateur, an enthusiast, a hobbyist or what?? Where have you studied? what digs have you gone on? Where have you done your research? Have you presented anywhere else than the friendly confines of LDS research (Sunstone)? I would imagine that anyone claiming & then proving that J. S. could translate Egyptian symbolism into whole books, would be widely published? Don’t you think?
…
I was reading my copy of “Archaeology” (Jan/Feb 2006 edition) & on pages 56 & 57 you were not listed as a presenter, why is that? They have a wide range of topics covered, you should be able get bookings too, or are you like James Spader in “Stargate”, having a hard time convincing the established academics that J.S. was able to translate Egyptian?

 

[Kerry Shirts]

I haven't participated in any "digs," nor am I professional archaeologist or scholar. I am, though, a professional artist in woodworking.......... no, I am an enthusiastic amateur who simply enjoys reading extensively, and let others decided whether I have enough to share with them in various fora and symposia..............

Best,
Kerry

 

[Jenyar]

Hi Cole.......actually I lean a little to the Eastern view on some things. We are already Gods, we just don't remember. But we are having, what I call, "a limiting experience," for this life, so we can see what it's like as well.

This sounds different from the doctrine of eternal progression. If God is a fixed truth to be realized, He must have existed in his totality and fullness from eternity, and can't have progressed or "realized himself" over time (there would have been nothing to realize).

On the other hand, if God went through this process himself, and we are already as much "god" as He ever was, then we would not need a "limiting experience" to find out what is already known. The limiting experience would only obscure from us what we already knew, and thus serve no intelligible purpose.

The difference is one of degree, not kind. This is very powerfully understood by the Jewish sages of their Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuv'im as well. Echoes from ancient times continually unfold to us, the more we find of the ancients' scriptures whether in the sands and dust of the Dead Sea caves, or the fields in Nag Hammadi Egypt, the ancients' truths that we can become like our Creator is exhilirating......it's the whole point of existence.

It might be, if you consider personal enlightenment a worthy purpose. I would think, though, that it goes against the unselfish service one is called to as a Christian. The fundamental duty of man was described in Ecclesiastes 12, and it does not seem to focus on gaining personal knowledge as a goal (since God himself will dispense it).

Eccl. 12:11-13
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.​

 

[water]

The difference is one of degree, not kind. This is very powerfully understood by the Jewish sages of their Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuv'im as well. Echoes from ancient times continually unfold to us, the more we find of the ancients' scriptures whether in the sands and dust of the Dead Sea caves, or the fields in Nag Hammadi Egypt, the ancients' truths that we can become like our Creator is exhilirating......it's the whole point of existence.

It might be, if you consider personal enlightenment a worthy purpose.

But the quoted poster isn't talking about "personal enlightenment". They are talking about the deification of man. Two very different things.

 

[Jenyar]

But the quoted poster isn't talking about "personal enlightenment". They are talking about the deification of man. Two very different things.

The difference seems semantic - how identity is understood. In Eastern thought, "divinity" or "god-ness" would be understood as "beyond the self", or anatta - that which is realized, or attained, and represents full knowledge or "enlightenment", as opposed to a "limiting experience" (like atman and samsara). In the West, where we tend to follow the Aristotelian and Platonic notions of distinguishing truth and identity ("is" and "is not", the law of excluded middle, etc.), where divinity is often called the "Other" or "wholly other", thus the equivalent of this process is deification: the "self" becoming indistinguishable from "god-ness", on the same level of identity and knowledge.

EDIT: The translation for "boddhi" (awake-ness) or "moksha" (liberation) as enlightenment shows how closely they are associated. "Enlightenment" is actually a term from Christian mysticism that refers to the soul being "lit" by God (lit from without), while in the east the same experience describes one who is lit from within (the "true self" being the equivalent of God).