Marlin said:
See my post above about the traditions of men and how God will work with mercy among those following false traditions. You can be a Christian without having Priesthood authority, and you can be a Christian and still have false ideas.
It's God's mercy to those following false traditions that we're talking about. According to Mormons, this includes everyone outside the Mormon church (or Joseph Smith would have joined a church instead of establish one). But in God's eyes, everyone was regarded and convicted as "sinful" (under the moral and legal commandment) in order to be saved by grace alone when they accept Christ. "Let God be true, and every man a liar".
Christians will be identified by the works that are given for them - their "fruit". The vine who enables us to bear that fruit is Christ himself, not any authority on earth. Not even the authorities that were properly established by God himself can make us Christian in that sense.
People might for instance have authority to prophesy in God's name, drive out demons and perform many miracles, and
still not be recognized by Christ: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 7:21). And according to Matthew 7, that will does not depend on the authority we inherited. Jesus confirms this again in Matthew 23:
Matt. 23:8-12
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
vs.
"
But why settle for second or third best? Don't you want a fulness of joy?"
Rather settle for no joy at all for the sake of Christ. His kingdom is not about me, it's about everybody else.
The mainstream LDS Church does not recoginze the "authority" or validity of the offshoot apostate groups. However, they are still recognized as Christian.
And how is this different from what you call "sectarian Christianity"?
False. God's authority is found in the Holy Priesthood and only in it.
Rev. 12:10-11
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony
Everyone who has overcome evil has God's authority:
Rev. 2:26
To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations...
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Now you only have to tell me that Christians outside the Mormon church are not eligible for these promises of Jesus. That they have not overcome the world by faith in His blood. That they need any other priesthood but the one Christ holds, to share his throne with Him. Or that any authority but
Christ is present in any true Christian, because:
1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
1 John 5:4
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Peter was speaking to the saints who held the Priesthood.
In his own words:
"To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood"
Who are those "sanctified by the work of the Spirit", according to Jesus?
John 17:18-21
As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
And we know that Paul did not consider baptism or religious rituals of such significance, even though his express purpose was to spread the sanctifying work of the Spirit:
Rom. 15:16 ...to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
You don't have to be baptized to be a Christian.
Maybe so, but baptism is a sign of becoming a disciple of Christ:
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Yet, why would someone who claims to be "born of the Spirit" (i.e. has proclaimed Jesus as the Christ), not want to be "born of water" in accordance to John 3:5? What kind of a Christian refuses to "pledge of a good conscience toward God"?
No, it is not valid; however, you are a Christian and I have no doubt that you are of the church of the lamb of God, if your words are any indication of this. I have no doubt that if you are a true believer in Christ, you will eventually accept a valid baptism.
Once again, surely you are aware that the Book of Mormon contains no reference to such a practice. And it's supposed to be the restored gospel, containing the "missing" elements of Christianity. It's ironic that the only ancient reference to the practice is in the Bible, mentioned in passing, as something "those people" do.
The validity of any baptism depends only the reality of the death of Jesus, and that's why it also symbolizes his resurrection:
Romans 6:3
"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
The water
symbolizes the real baptism that saves us: "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21). In fact, this is the very point Paul was making in 1 Cor. 15. His argument is that even "they" (those who don't believe in a resurrection, v.12) are trying to save the dead by proxy baptism, "And
as for us," he says, "why should
we endanger ourselves for merely human reasons, if there is nothing to gain?" (1 Cor. 15:30).
As someone said, "If Paul taught baptism for the dead, it is inexplicable that he would exclude himself from those who practiced the rite".
