Mormon Teachings

[WildBlueYonder]

As for horses in the Americas, metallurgy, and other apparent anachronisms mentioned in the Book of Mormon, here are some interesting articles explaining them:
.fairlds.org
And another article on Horses in ancient America:
farms.byu.edu

wishful scholarship, all mormon sites. published in the friendly confines of the believers, if this research is all true, why not publish in mainstream journals? why no Harvard or Yale sources? because those collge programs would throw the fakers out. I'm still waiting for the Smithsonian & the Field Museum to open up Laminite/Jarite Rooms for their collections of Judeo-Egypto-Mexican artifacts, where are they? they found the Viking sites, in lonely, spread-out Canada & Greenland, why can't they in the LGT? I mean, the "narrow neck" of S. Mexico is a very small, limited area, why it should be easy to find these sites, no?

This last article mentions an interesting fact: that in all the Hun empire's remains, very few if any horse remains have been found, even though the Huns had hundreds of thousands of horses.

see below:
http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/start.html

Farmers first and foremost, Vikings in the North Atlantic islands recreated the daily life of their homelands. They kept pigs and tended sheep, cattle, and goats for needed wool, leather, meat, and milk. Climate permitting, Norse grew crops such as peas and cabbage, but primarily harvested grains for producing bread and beer. Wild animals, especially sea mammals, supplemented their diet and provided skins, ivory, and oil - important trade commodities back home.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

stop the presses!
did you read this?
http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/start.html

Farmers first and foremost, Vikings in the North Atlantic islands recreated the daily life of their homelands. They kept pigs and tended sheep, cattle, and goats for needed wool, leather, meat, and milk. Climate permitting, Norse grew crops such as peas and cabbage, but primarily harvested grains for producing bread and beer. Wild animals, especially sea mammals, supplemented their diet and provided skins, ivory, and oil - important trade commodities back home.

I have the answer, the BoM people are really the Vikings!!
yeah, thats the ticket, the "narrow neck" is really a peninsula in Canada, you guys were looking in the wrong direction, I'm a genius, no need to thank me, you're welcome, shy smile

read below:
http://www.canadiannordicsociety.com/Vikings.html

Vinland - L'Anse aux Meadows
L'Anse aux Meadows National Historic Site of Canada

From the Parks Canada website:
At the tip of the Great Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland, surrounded by spectacular scenery, is L'Anse aux Meadows National Historic Site. This site is the earliest known European settlement in the New World. In 1960, archaeologists discovered the only authenticated remains of a Viking period Norse settlement in North America.

mormons, you're welcome, now that I've single-handedly solved all your BoM problems, no need to give me the 'title' of honorary "prophet" or "president" of the LDS, but you're welcome anyway

remember, you heard it here first

 

[Marlin]

wishful scholarship, all mormon sites. published in the friendly confines of the believers, if this research is all true, why not publish in mainstream journals? why no Harvard or Yale sources?

Ad hominem, Randy boy. You don't have to address the issues if you can discredit the people who argue them simply by saying they're Mormons. BTW, my Uncle is a Mormon and he went to Yale, so I guess that solves all your credibility issues, eh? Don't thank me, my pleasure.

I'm still waiting for the Smithsonian & the Field Museum to open up Laminite/Jarite Rooms for their collections of Judeo-Egypto-Mexican artifacts, where are they?

Why don't you just look in the Book of Mormon's end pages to learn how to spell "Lamanite" and "Jaredite," for starters? You get all upset when people call you "Randolpho," after all. What's sauce for the goose....

they found the Viking sites, in lonely, spread-out Canada & Greenland, why can't they in the LGT? I mean, the "narrow neck" of S. Mexico is a very small, limited area, why it should be easy to find these sites, no?

We don't know where these sites were. Maybe central America, maybe not. The Americas are a large place, Randy boy.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Ad hominem, Randy boy. You don't have to address the issues if you can discredit the people who argue them simply by saying they're Mormons.

there are no issues, just wishful thinking, put all your proof on National Geographic, or in the Smithsonian
the sources prove the weakness of the BoM, only mormons defend it, if there were any real proof, why anthropologists from Portland, Maine to Portland, Oregon would be out in the field, digging BoM sites, writing about their findings in NG, SI, why even RD! The implications are so huge, I'm not sure you understand the magnitude, its not some dilly-dally idea, it places Biblical history here, implies that Native Americans were 2nd place in the history of this hemisphere, that real live Judeo-Egyptians lived here in the Americas, thats just huge, if true, you have to find the evidence, just don't hold your breathe

BTW, my Uncle is a Mormon and he went to Yale, so I guess that solves all your credibility issues, eh? Don't thank me, my pleasure. :-D

I suppose he's Michael Coe, world-famous anthropologist, I'm impressed

Why don't you just look in the Book of Mormon's end pages to learn how to spell "Lamanite" and "Jaredite," for starters? You get all upset when people call you "Randolpho," after all. What's sauce for the goose....

Marlydude, I don't use SpellCheck & I get caned? not fair, anyway call me "Questzalcoatl Jones", my real name

We don't know where these sites were. Maybe central America, maybe not. The Americas are a large place, Randy boy.

Marlyne, if they can find 1000 year old Viking sites in the wilds of Canada, why can't they find BoM in little ol' "narrow neck" Mexico?

my guess, cause they ain't there, but thats just my opinion

 

[Marlin]

the sources prove the weakness of the BoM

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are; that no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Maybe someone here would know: Which of the nine different versions of the "First Vision," that Joseph Smith tried to SELL(once to a newspaper, before the time church records indicate that he ever saw the plates, let alone translated them) is the right one?

would the answer be," eany, meany, myny, moe"? I'm still trying to figure how mormons can defend the BoM so much, when some of the tenets there go against modern LDS mormonism? god, polygamy, etc...

hey can I use the BoM to attack LDS mormon beliefs, is that allowed? let me see, BoM knocks polygamy, Joe Smith & Brigham Young followed it to the letter, mormon rams that they were, so they were bad in BoM terms, bad apostates, fallen men

humm, the LDS followed polygamy until it became inconveniet to Utah statehood, then the LDS changed its ways, apostates that they were, to one more step into true BoM belief

 

[WildBlueYonder]

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;

funny, how you use the real Bible, when you need to defend yourself, but how about this for starters?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal001.html#top

Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[Marlin]

Randolfo, first of all, the Book of Mormon forbids polygamy when it is without God's sanction. If God sanctions it, it's okay.

Second, the verses in Galatians you quote apply to sectarian Christianity today, not to Mormonism, which follows the original gospel of Jesus Christ. It is other Christian sects, not Mormonism, that are following another gospel.

 

[Halcyon]

Randolfo, first of all, the Book of Mormon forbids polygamy when it is without God's sanction. If God sanctions it, it's okay.

Where can I find that verse?

You must practice polygamy to become a god. Journal of Discourses 11:269

 

[Marlin]

Where can I find that verse?

Jacob 2:27-30
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one• wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed• be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed• unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

You must practice polygamy to become a god. Journal of Discourses 11:269

The Journal of Discourses is not official Mormon doctrine. Indeed, in the book entitled "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce R. McConkie (which is also not official Mormon doctrine, but which is a generally good storehouse of knowledge about Mormonism), it says:

"Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation." (Mormon Doctrine pg. 578).

 

[Halcyon]

Jacob 2:27-30The Journal of Discourses is not official Mormon doctrine.

Journal of discourses is a collection of sermons delivered by LDS authorities as church doctrine. Why would it be delivered to Mormon follwers as Mormon doctrine if it wasn't? Have you had a chance to get ahold of any of the original mormon doctrines before they were rewritten? It would be a good idea to see what your church originally believed in before they rewrote everything after being persecuted by the government and society.

Do you truly believe the Book of Mormon? And if you do, how do you accept the Doctrine and Covenant and the Pearl of Great Price since these books have (VERY) contradictory teachings? Why do Mormons approach people with the book of Mormon when it doesn’t contain the doctrines they teach? (The Book of Mormon does not contain ANY Mormon Doctrine.) What specific doctrine of Mormonism is in the Book of Mormon that isn’t in the bible? (I ask this last question not because I am taking a religious stand, it’s to frame an argument concerning Mormonism’s stand as the one true religion.)

 

[Marlin]

Journal of discourses is a collection of sermons delivered by LDS authorities as church doctrine. Why would it be delivered to Mormon follwers as Mormon doctrine if it wasn't?

You have to understand the difference between official Mormon doctrine versus that which is not official. Official Mormon doctrine, the only canon which all Mormons are required to accept as members of the Church, is found in the Bible (KJV), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. How does a doctrine become official doctrine? The usual procedure is to present it before the Church assembly at General Conference and have the congregation sustain it as such. Any other doctrine, including the Journal of Discourses and Mormon Doctrine, is not required of us to believe. It may be good advice, and it definitely may be inspired, but it's not official doctrine unless it's in the canon as listed above. We do have an open canon, which means that new revelations may be added as needed.

Have you had a chance to get ahold of any of the original mormon doctrines before they were rewritten? It would be a good idea to see what your church originally believed in before they rewrote everything after being persecuted by the government and society.

What exactly did the Church "rewrite"? Most of the changes in the Book of Mormon were grammatical errors that were corrected in subsequent editions of the book.

Do you truly believe the Book of Mormon? And if you do, how do you accept the Doctrine and Covenant and the Pearl of Great Price since these books have (VERY) contradictory teachings?

I do truly believe that the Book of Mormon is true. I also accept the other canonized books of Mormon scripture, and I don't find anything "very contradictory" in them. Could you elaborate?

Why do Mormons approach people with the book of Mormon when it doesn’t contain the doctrines they teach? (The Book of Mormon does not contain ANY Mormon Doctrine.)

The Book of Mormon contains much LDS doctrine. To say it doesn't contain any is to speak from ignorance.

What specific doctrine of Mormonism is in the Book of Mormon that isn’t in the bible? (I ask this last question not because I am taking a religious stand, it’s to frame an argument concerning Mormonism’s stand as the one true religion.)

Well, offhand I would say that the idea that "plain and precious truths" which were in the Bible originally but which were removed by wicked or careless men, is a distinctly LDS doctrine found in the BoM. The idea of a Great Apostasy from the truth is also LDS theology, although the Bible mentions it as well.

Also, the idea that we are saved by grace after all we can do is distinctly LDS, as opposed to traditional Christianity's insistence that we are saved by grace alone without any works involved--the Bible does teach that works are necessary, but the BoM makes it more clear.

 

[Halcyon]

What exactly did the Church "rewrite"? Most of the changes in the Book of Mormon were grammatical errors that were corrected in subsequent editions of the book.

There are 3913 known changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes. I like how even you admit that "most of the changes....were grammatical errors." Most, not all, right? It's easy enough to find record of the original 1830 text and compare it to modern revised editions. You get to find interesting things like this:

"2 Nephi 30:6, a verse promising that in the latter-days many Lamanites (American Indians) would convert to Mormonism and receive many blessings. Recent versions of The Book of Mormon state the verse s last phrase to read, And many generations shall not pass away among them (the Lamanites), save they shall be a pure and delightsome people. 12 All editions published before 1980 stated the verse this way . . . And many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people. 13 The revision clearly reflects a change in the traditional LDS view that Indians were cursed with dark skin because of their disobedience to God. We ask, by what authority do Mormons make such a change? They answer that their leaders are inspired men, thus they can change anything they deem necessary."

or this

'In the first edition we read as follows:
"... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior ... " (Book of Mormon, 1830 edition, page 32)

In the 1964 edition it reads as follows:

"... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the [Son of] the Eternal Father, and the Savior ..." (Book of Mormon, 1964 edition, 1 Nephi 13:40) '

from:
http://sub.namb.net/evangelism/iev/Mormon/clbook.asp
http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/mormons/morletr.htm

This researcher raises some valid points for you:
http://www.bible-truth.org/inveslds.htm

Also you might want to read this letter by the printer of the original version:
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/bom_early_problems/memorandumjohhgilbert.htm

I do truly believe that the Book of Mormon is true. I also accept the other canonized books of Mormon scripture, and I don't find anything "very contradictory" in them. Could you elaborate?

Well, for one the book of Mormon teaches about hell, but mormon doctrine claims that there is no such thing.

The Book of Mormon teaches in Alma 34:36 it states that God dwells in the heart, and in Doctrine & Covenants, 130:3, that He does not.

You must be polygamous to enter into the celestial kingdom (Doctrine & Covenants 132:6). You must have only one wife; Doctrine & Covenants, Section 49:16.

Alma 11:44 teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. Also in Alma 11:28-29, Zeezrom is asking if there is more than one God and Amulek says to him that there is not. But in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121:32; 132:18-20, and also the Book of Abraham, Chapters 4 and 5, there is clearly a teaching of plural Gods.

GOD IS A SPIRIT
Book of Mormon, in Alma 18:26-28 and Chapter 22:8-11
GOD HAS A BODY
Doctrine and Covenants, Sec. 130:22

CREATION BY ONE GOD
Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:14; Jacob 4:9; Pearl of Great Price, Moses, Chapter 2
CREATION BY PLURAL GODS
Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham, Chapters 4 and 5.

MAN WAS NOT PRE-EXISTANT
Book of Mormon, Alma 18:28, 34-36
Book of Mormon, Jacob 4:9
MAN WAS PRE-EXISTANT
Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93:23, 29-33; Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:18, 21-23

NO CHANCE AFTER DEATH
Book of Mormon, Mosiah 2:36-39, also Alma 34:32-35
CHANCE AFTER DEATH
Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76:106-112; Section 88:99

HEATHEN SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM
Book of Mormon, Moroni 8:22; 1 Nephi 9:25-26; Mosiah 16:11, 27:31; Alma 41:4-8, 42:16
BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD
Doctrine and Covenants, Section 128:5

POLYGAMY CONDEMNED
Book of Mormon, Jacob 1:15, 2:24, 3:5, Mosiah 11:2
POLYGAMY COMMANDED
Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132:1, 37-39, 61

AGAINST PAID MINISTRY
Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 26:31, Mosiah 27:5
FOR PAID MINISTRY
Doctrine and Covenants, Section 42:71-73, 43:12-13, 51:13-14

ADAM IN AMERICA
Doctrine and Covenants, Section 107:53, 116, 117:8
ADAM IN OLD WORLD
Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses 3:13

This last part of the list was compiled by a fellow researcher who I cannot provide a reference for unfortunately.

Here are some links to read over for now.

http://www.challengemin.org/contrad.html
http://www.fellowshiponline.org/biblestudies/godlie.htm

The Book of Mormon contains much LDS doctrine. To say it doesn't contain any is to speak from ignorance.

No, it does not. The book of Mormon tells a story, it contains no Mormon doctrine. To say that it does tells me that you need to read it again.

 

[Marlin]

Halcyon, you raise quite a few questions about Mormon doctrine which cannot possibly be addressed in one single post or essay. I will therefore just refer you to web sites which answer your questions, rather than try to answer the deluge of anti-Mormon garbage you bring up. Rest assured that the issues you raise have all been refuted for decades, some for more than a century. Anti-Mormon web sites tend to repeat these issues over and over again, regardless of how often we Mormons refute them.

There are 3913 known changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes. I like how even you admit that "most of the changes....were grammatical errors." Most, not all, right? It's easy enough to find record of the original 1830 text and compare it to modern revised editions. You get to find interesting things like this:

"2 Nephi 30:6, a verse promising that in the latter-days many Lamanites (American Indians) would convert to Mormonism and receive many blessings. Recent versions of The Book of Mormon state the verse s last phrase to read, And many generations shall not pass away among them (the Lamanites), save they shall be a pure and delightsome people. 12 All editions published before 1980 stated the verse this way . . . And many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people. 13 The revision clearly reflects a change in the traditional LDS view that Indians were cursed with dark skin because of their disobedience to God. We ask, by what authority do Mormons make such a change? They answer that their leaders are inspired men, thus they can change anything they deem necessary."

or this

'In the first edition we read as follows:
"... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior ... " (Book of Mormon, 1830 edition, page 32)

In the 1964 edition it reads as follows:

"... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the [Son of] the Eternal Father, and the Savior ..." (Book of Mormon, 1964 edition, 1 Nephi 13:40) '

from:
http://sub.namb.net/evangelism/iev/Mormon/clbook.asp
http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/mormons/morletr.htm

Book of Mormon Criticisms: Changes

Why Were 4,000 Changes Made in the Book of Mormon?

Understanding Textual Changes in the Book of Mormon

Further posts will be forthcoming.

 

[Marlin]

Well, for one the book of Mormon teaches about hell, but mormon doctrine claims that there is no such thing.

False.

Does Mormonism Teach There Is No Hell?

Are There 3 Heavens and No Hell?

 

[Marlin]

The Book of Mormon teaches in Alma 34:36 it states that God dwells in the heart, and in Doctrine & Covenants, 130:3, that He does not.

Let's look at these scriptures.

Alma 34:36
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy• temples, but in the hearts• of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood• of the Lamb.


D&C 130:3
John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance•; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell• in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

Joseph Smith (in D&C 130) was saying simply that the idea that God was "large enough to fill the universe, but small enough to dwell in a man's heart" was false, as God is an exalted Man and has a finite body of flesh and bone, according to LDS doctrine.

The verse in Alma is no doubt referring to the indwelling of the Spirit of God within the hearts of the righteous, not the actual abode of God the Father Himself.

The two verses in context do not conflict.

 

[Marlin]

You must be polygamous to enter into the celestial kingdom (Doctrine & Covenants 132:6). You must have only one wife; Doctrine & Covenants, Section 49:16.

D&C 132:6
And as pertaining to the new and everlasting• covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory•; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

D&C 49:16
Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;

The first reference refers to the "new and everlasting covenant," which is celestial marriage (marriage for time and all eternity). Plural marriage isn't even mentioned in this verse.

The second reference says simply that it's "lawful" for a man to have one wife. It doesn't say whether it's "lawful" to have more than one wife. It's completely silent about polygamy.

Next!

 

[Marlin]

Alma 11:44 teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. Also in Alma 11:28-29, Zeezrom is asking if there is more than one God and Amulek says to him that there is not. But in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121:32; 132:18-20, and also the Book of Abraham, Chapters 4 and 5, there is clearly a teaching of plural Gods.

The Godhead is made of three personages: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. These three are separate and distinct Gods, yet they are one in purpose and heart. Thus it can be said that their union as a Godhead is "one God."

 

[Marlin]

Skipping ahead a bit:

"The Book of Mormon contains much LDS doctrine. To say it doesn't contain any is to speak from ignorance."

No, it does not. The book of Mormon tells a story, it contains no Mormon doctrine. To say that it does tells me that you need to read it again.

I've read it four or five times, plus studied it a year in Seminary classes and Institute classes. I think it's fair to say that the Book of Mormon (hello!) actually does contain Mormon doctrine. Let's start in 1 Nephi:

1 Nephi 1 Lehi foretells the coming of the Messiah
1 Nephi 2: Lehi teaches his sons to keep the commandments of God
1 Nephi 3: The Lord gives no commandments save he shall prepare a way to accomplish them
1 Nephi 5: The Bible shall go forth unto all nations
1 Nephi 6: Nephi's purpose is to persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham
1 Nephi 7: The Lord will deliver the faithful from their afflictions
1 Nephi 8: By pressing forward and holding to the word of God, we may arrive at the love of God and partake of it
1 Nephi 10: The Messiah will come and be resurrected; men need to be righteous; No unclean thing can dwell in the kingdom of God
1 Nephi 11: A vision of the coming of Christ
1 Nephi 12: A vision of the land of Promise (America, which is certainly part of LDS doctrine)
1 Nephi 13: Many plain and precious things are removed from the Bible, and apostasy results (vision)
1 Nephi 14: There are only two churches: the Church of Jesus Christ and the church of the devil
1 Nephi 15: All men will be judged according to their works; the kingdom of God is not filthy
1 Nephi 16: The wicked take the truth to be hard
1 Nephi 17: If we keep the commandments, God will nourish and strengthen us
1 Nephi 18: Some men esteem the words of God, while many tread them underfoot
1 Nephi 19: Liken the scriptures unto ourselves for our profit and learning
1 Nephi 22: Israel to be scattered, then the Gentiles will nurse and nourish them; end of the world prophesied

If you'd really really want me to, I can go on through the ENTIRE Book of Mormon picking out the Mormon doctrines that you say are not there. It would be quite a long list!

 

[Marlin]

Halcyon and others, I will be out of town until next Thursday (family outing). I hope what I have posted today will be of assistance to you. Later.