More than 50% of Americans support Gay Marriage

spidergoat said:
There's an infinite number of things that I also haven't been given reason to believe. Whether I know them or not with certainty is irrelevant. Have you ever been given a reason to believe that invisible pink unicorns don't exist?
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No. However, I do not believe that any random thing we can fathom randomly exists in an alternate dimension. "God" is logical. A all powerful all natural conscious force.
 
JDawg said:
Not everyone shares your open-mindedness, sadly. Of course, there is also the possibility that you denounced your parents' faith out of rebellion. Not saying that you did, only that when a child is saddled with ideologies before they are old enough to understand exactly what they're into, it makes it all the more difficult for them to make informed choices about that ideology later in life. Even if they do abandon it, are they doing so because they really don't believe in it, or are they doing so to stick it to Maw and Paw? It's a valid question.

Of course, atheism is not an ideology, so the more likely scenario is a child of a certain faith simply taking on a different faith, but my point still stands. Children raised in strict religious settings (or strict racist settings) overwhelmingly tend to adhere to that ideology as adults. Why do you think religions continue to grow? It certainly has nothing to do with converts. It's practitioners of the faith having children who will be raised in that religion.
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I love my parents very much. I had only mild teenage rebellion throughout my teen years. I guess it could still be coming, but I doubt it. I certainly didn't have it when I was researching whether I had the truth. I was indoctrinated not to be rebellious, and was afraid if I even thought of it I would not survive the end of the world. So it was nothing like that, but I do admit that the *restrictions* of the religion, may have led me to research it. I was not about to devout my whole life to a religion I was not sure was true, was my main reason for researching.

If there was a religion that didn't require any of your valuable time, or if you didn't think that time was valuable or being wasted, and there were no problems or decisions in your life connected to religion, then yes, there wouldn't be much reason to research on your own, but realistically what religion is like that?

Yes, many take up their parent's religion, but when *information* is available *so freely* now, that is not factored in as much.
 
I think it's mistaken to believe something just because no one has demonstrated that it's false. And you haven't demonstrated any logical necessity for a God, much less evidence.
 
spidergoat said:
I think it's mistaken to believe something just because no one has demonstrated that it's false. And you haven't demonstrated any logical necessity for a God, much less evidence.
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I think its silly to believe in something because no one has demonstrated that it's false... like atheism? Well, maybe there is a necessity for God, maybe there isn't. Maybe he created us. If I had evidence of God I would surly keep it secret less he made it clear to me he wanted to be known.
 
garbonzo said:
I love my parents very much. I had only mild teenage rebellion throughout my teen years. I guess it could still be coming, but I doubt it. I certainly didn't have it when I was researching whether I had the truth. I was indoctrinated not to be rebellious, and was afraid if I even thought of it I would not survive the end of the world. So it was nothing like that, but I do admit that the *restrictions* of the religion, may have led me to research it. I was not about to devout my whole life to a religion I was not sure was true, was my main reason for researching.

If there was a religion that didn't require any of your valuable time, or if you didn't think that time was valuable or being wasted, and there were no problems or decisions in your life connected to religion, then yes, there wouldn't be much reason to research on your own, but realistically what religion is like that?
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But those same restrictions for most other people are not invitations to find ways out, as it was for you. For most, those restrictions are no-fly zones. You were strong enough and skeptical enough to doubt, and brave enough to follow through on that. Perhaps you didn't face the same social and familial consequences many others face for breaking ranks. You have to understand that your situation, both in terms of who you are and what pressures were or were not on you, is not necessarily like everyone else's.

Yes, many take up their parent's religion, but when *information* is available *so freely* now, that is not factored in as much.
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What isn't factored in as much? The fact that a person's parents were also of the faith? I completely disagree. I mean, I certainly hope the internet makes it easier for indoctrinated youth to free themselves, but access to alternative theories has never been the issue. It's that children are indoctrinated before they're old enough to understand what's being done to them. By the time most people are old enough to learn of evolution, for example, they've already been conditioned to reject it (and always remember that despite their claims, IDers do not want their children "doubting" evolution, they want them rejecting it).

Now, sure, a lot of people learn the sciences and it changes their mind, or they read Dawkins or Hitchens and the light comes on, but I don't think it's happening at as great of a rate as people are shutting those very same things out because they aren't strong enough to overcome their indoctrination.

The cult effect is no different than being a white supremacist. Tell any skinhead that the Genome Project stripped away the last refuge for racists, and showed that our differences are recent and superficial, and he'll tell you it's Jewish propaganda. Tell him that a white Christian was the one doing the science, he'll say it's white guilt. They have an answer for everything.
 
Knowledge91 said:
I think its silly to believe in something because no one has demonstrated that it's false... like atheism? Well, maybe there is a necessity for God, maybe there isn't. Maybe he created us. If I had evidence of God I would surly keep it secret less he made it clear to me he wanted to be known.
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No one believes in atheism. Atheism is not a belief system.

There is no evidence that any god exists, and plenty of evidence against your Christian God, which is the one most American atheists are talking about anyway.
 
Doesn't this whole discussion crux on whether or not 50% support Gay marriage? Evidence I've seen says 30%.
 
Gay marriage should not really be about gay marriage, because marriage itself has very little to do with sex or what each has between each other legs. People get together fore many reasons, and those reasons keep them together. Sex can be one reason and genital orientation could be one too but they surely are not the primary reasons.

This movement against gay marriage is a passive aggressive wave of hatred towards a group of people to make them feel lesser as human beings because they share differences in personal preferences. Moral freedom is our answer, not moral legislation. Moral freedom is good for the budget, whereas moral legislation runs up the debt. Moral legislation just imposes preferences of the majority upon the minority and criminalises human behaviour that hurts no one.
 
steampunk said:
Gay marriage should not really be about gay marriage, because marriage itself has very little to do with sex or what each has between each other legs. People get together fore many reasons, and those reasons keep them together. Sex can be one reason and genital orientation could be one too but they surely are not the primary reasons.

This movement against gay marriage is a passive aggressive wave of hatred towards a group of people to make them feel lesser as human beings because they share differences in personal preferences. Moral freedom is our answer, not moral legislation. Moral freedom is good for the budget, whereas moral legislation runs up the debt. Moral legislation just imposes preferences of the majority upon the minority and criminalises human behaviour that hurts no one.
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I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that gay marriage doesn't mean homosexuality, but maybe I just didn't understand your post.
 
Chipz said:
Doesn't this whole discussion crux on whether or not 50% support Gay marriage? Evidence I've seen says 30%.
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The latest poll states at least 50% SUPPORT gay marriage. I've heard this twice on American and Canadian mainstream news.
 
JDawg said:
But those same restrictions for most other people are not invitations to find ways out, as it was for you. For most, those restrictions are no-fly zones. You were strong enough and skeptical enough to doubt, and brave enough to follow through on that. Perhaps you didn't face the same social and familial consequences many others face for breaking ranks. You have to understand that your situation, both in terms of who you are and what pressures were or were not on you, is not necessarily like everyone else's.
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Don't you remember my thread dealing with my Dad? If my Dad found out about my beliefs, I would be disowned and shunned. Nothing is worse than this cult than maybe the Amish. (In America) It is indoctrination to the max and I beat it. I just don't see why anyone else can't. It's just pure logic, really. I reasoned that why would a loving God punish you for truly believing in something that is logical? Why would he give you a brain and then tell you not to use it? If I research, I will find the truth, as the truth will always win out. It is illogical to think otherwise. If there is an area I am not sure about, then I wouldn't be jumping to atheism, but if something is black and white, then it's easy to pick which makes more sense.

What isn't factored in as much? The fact that a person's parents were also of the faith? I completely disagree. I mean, I certainly hope the internet makes it easier for indoctrinated youth to free themselves, but access to alternative theories has never been the issue. It's that children are indoctrinated before they're old enough to understand what's being done to them. By the time most people are old enough to learn of evolution, for example, they've already been conditioned to reject it (and always remember that despite their claims, IDers do not want their children "doubting" evolution, they want them rejecting it).

Now, sure, a lot of people learn the sciences and it changes their mind, or they read Dawkins or Hitchens and the light comes on, but I don't think it's happening at as great of a rate as people are shutting those very same things out because they aren't strong enough to overcome their indoctrination.
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I didn't learn the sciences and change my mind.... That was never a thought in my mind. I was indoctrinated to think sciences were evil and from Satan.

I began researching the very foundation of my faith, because without that, I had no faith. This seems like human instinct to me. I'm sure smarter people are more likely to research. The others may learn from a teacher; their friend, a family member, etc.

The cult effect is no different than being a white supremacist. Tell any skinhead that the Genome Project stripped away the last refuge for racists, and showed that our differences are recent and superficial, and he'll tell you it's Jewish propaganda. Tell him that a white Christian was the one doing the science, he'll say it's white guilt. They have an answer for everything.
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Yes, they are the same in that they are a belief system that has no foundation to stand on. But the same can be said of children born into a white supremacist group. If they have internet access, they can research the very foundation of their views and find the truth. Yes, they have answers to everything, but are those answers logical? As the child matures, the smarter they get, the more logical they can think.

Access to alternative theories have never been an issue? Of course it has. Heck, in some places now and in the past it was/is against the law to belief other things. It was and is always the issue.

You underestimate people's intelligence, and maybe rightly so, but at the same time, those intelligent enough will "be strong enough" to overcome indoctrination. I am living proof of that, and I am in a community of those who have left the cult that are living proof of that, also.
 
garbonzo said:
Don't you remember my thread dealing with my Dad? If my Dad found out about my beliefs, I would be disowned and shunned. Nothing is worse than this cult than maybe the Amish. (In America) It is indoctrination to the max and I beat it. I just don't see why anyone else can't. It's just pure logic, really. I reasoned that why would a loving God punish you for truly believing in something that is logical? Why would he give you a brain and then tell you not to use it? If I research, I will find the truth, as the truth will always win out. It is illogical to think otherwise. If there is an area I am not sure about, then I wouldn't be jumping to atheism, but if something is black and white, then it's easy to pick which makes more sense.
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You have a stronger mind than most, if that's the case. Logic was not something you could easily dismiss, and so it swayed you. For you, not even the risk of being disowned was worth pretending you believed. The same cannot be said for most.


I didn't learn the sciences and change my mind.... That was never a thought in my mind. I was indoctrinated to think sciences were evil and from Satan.

I began researching the very foundation of my faith, because without that, I had no faith. This seems like human instinct to me. I'm sure smarter people are more likely to research. The others may learn from a teacher; their friend, a family member, etc.
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But did you really believe that science was the work of the devil? It doesn't really sound that way. I get the inkling from your writing that you were never really sold on any of this stuff, which is what lead to your doubt. But even if that's not the case, not everyone is willing or able to do what you did.

I will say, however, that it is often the scholarship of one's own holy text that is the strongest case against their faith. I have mentioned this several times recently, but Dan Dennett recently conducted a study of priests who were secretly atheists, and found that many seminary students bail out or at the very least react angrily to the biblical scholarship they are made to undertake. Once it becomes clear that the text they believed to be inerrant (or at the very least, the word of god) contains wishy-washy translations, and was compiled at best arbitrarily, and often for political purposes, it's a stunning blow to their faith. One priest even went so far as to say, albeit jokingly, that it was impossible to graduate the seminary as anything other than an atheist.

Yes, they are the same in that they are a belief system that has no foundation to stand on. But the same can be said of children born into a white supremacist group. If they have internet access, they can research the very foundation of their views and find the truth. Yes, they have answers to everything, but are those answers logical? As the child matures, the smarter they get, the more logical they can think.
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But the same misinformation that has been applied to other arguments against them can be applied to stories of their founding. I just watched an old clip of Christopher Hitchens guest-hosting a news-talk program from the early 90s in which he interviewed a father-son white supremacist/separatist duo, and the level of delusion was amazing. The father at one point meekly admitted to being found civilly culpable for a black man's death, but claimed that the witnesses brought against him were bribed.

Access to alternative theories have never been an issue? Of course it has. Heck, in some places now and in the past it was/is against the law to belief other things. It was and is always the issue.
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Being against the law to believe in something has never stopped that thing from being believed. Look at Christianity! Anyway, you're talking about a separate issue. As with anything illegal, its availability is hardly a problem. For example, if marijuana were legal today, I'd have to drive to the corner store to buy some. But because it's illegal, I could in all probability knock on two or three doors in my complex and find someone willing to sell me some. The same would apply to the Torah if Judaism were illegal, or the Koran if Islam were illegal, or to The Selfish Gene if evolution and natural selection discussions and reading materials were outlawed.

Unless, of course, you're Amish, as was your case(?), in which you're pretty much secluded from modern society. But in other cases, it's not that children and adults don't have access to alternative theories, it's that they have built-in defenses against them.

You underestimate people's intelligence, and maybe rightly so, but at the same time, those intelligent enough will "be strong enough" to overcome indoctrination. I am living proof of that, and I am in a community of those who have left the cult that are living proof of that, also.
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You misunderstand my point. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying that you're stronger than most people, because most people who are born into a religion stay with that religion their entire lives. I don't discount the dulling effect on religion that secular society has had, and as a result how few people are truly as pious as they might profess to be, but that too is beside the point.
 
JDawg said:
No one believes in atheism. Atheism is not a belief system.

There is no evidence that any god exists, and plenty of evidence against your Christian God, which is the one most American atheists are talking about anyway.
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LMAO. Atheism is the belief in the lack of a God. It very much is a belief. Christian/Catholic God? Who? I don't even believe in Christian/Catholic Jesus, I do however believe in Jesus
 
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