Mohammad's Character

While reading a wiki article on Zen Buddhism I came across this sentence:

Within Zen, there are various legends and mythologies, largely a part of Chinese and Japanese folklore, which must be carefully distinguished from Zen history.

I can only imagine that upon reading such a sentence some members of Sciforums held in an Ape Shit so gigantic as to cause a brain fart of such seismic proportions that half the cranium was blown out :eek:


:p
M
 
Hey Michael even I can list books, all I need is Amazon. You are not presenting any specific evidence. You are the one who said that it is likely that Muhammad didn't believe in a god or that he even existed.

You have not given any specific evidence. I didn't ask for evidence against God but for historical Muhammad so that you can revise the history. This thread is as pointless as it was from the beginning.

You may have good ideas but you surely don't know how to put them in words that make them for an intelligent discussion.....

Bye :wave:

Peace be unto you ;)
 
You're asking me to present evidence that Mohammad didn't believe in God. I presented that evidence. You ignored it. I actually laid out the whole case for why Mohammad was likely to be atheist. Do we "know" if Mohammad was atheist? No. Do we "know" if Mohammad was theist? No.

So what?

It certainly doesn't stop you from referring to and talking about Mohammad as if he did believe in God. You don't go asking for "evidence" that Mohammad was a believer every time some mentions something about Mohammad. As a matter of fact, I am 100% sure you can have a pretty decent conversation about Mohammad thinking he was theist. And probably do all the time. Many times a year. But, the chance you have to entertain a conversations about Mohammad NOT being a believer and suddenly you go off the rails. That says something about YOU not the conversation.

As for Mohammad being a historical person - there's no contemporary evidence for Mohammad. There's evidence from one Greek Bishop about a heretical warmonger - that's sometimes taken as referring to Mohammad. Other than that - nothing that I know of.
 
Here is what Patricia Crone, whose work has been described as "not only bitterly anti-Islamic in tone, but anti-Arabian" has to say about Mohammed:
True, on Arabic coins and inscriptions, and in papyri and other documentary evidence in the language, Mohammed only appears in the 680s, some fifty years after his death (whatever its exact date). This is the ground on which some, notably Yehuda D Nevo and Judith Koren, have questioned his existence. But few would accept the implied premise that history has to be reconstructed on the sole basis of documentary evidence (i.e. information which has not been handed down from one generation to the next, but rather been inscribed on stone or metal or dug up from the ground and thus preserved in its original form). The evidence that a prophet was active among the Arabs in the early decades of the 7th century, on the eve of the Arab conquest of the middle east, must be said to be exceptionally good.

Everything else about Mohammed is more uncertain, but we can still say a fair amount with reasonable assurance. Most importantly, we can be reasonably sure that the Qur'an is a collection of utterances that he made in the belief that they had been revealed to him by God. The book may not preserve all the messages he claimed to have received, and he is not responsible for the arrangement in which we have them. They were collected after his death – how long after is controversial. But that he uttered all or most of them is difficult to doubt. Those who deny the existence of an Arabian prophet dispute it, of course, but it causes too many problems with later evidence, and indeed with the Qur'an itself, for the attempt to be persuasive.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp
 
I see the point Micheal makes about wives muslims are only alllowed to have 4 so why would go against the very thing hee preached,obviously because he didnt believe in it because probablly wrote it himself (the Quran),that is if he existed, which isnt proven
 
I see the point Micheal makes about wives muslims are only alllowed to have 4 so why would go against the very thing hee preached,obviously because he didnt believe in it because probablly wrote it himself (the Quran),that is if he existed, which isnt proven

Interestingly he's trying to make some type of historical point but don't know the timeline.

The restriction of 4 wives came after all of his marriages-
You can find the information in the Quran as well.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
Patricia Crone
Yes, there are examples of some coins being minted 5 decades or so into the future of what would be contemporary. You don't find this ODD? That there isn't a scrap of contemporary evidence for Mohammad?

Also think about this FIVE decades - these weren't little decades. There was a massive mobilization of Arab nomads in aggressive wars against the Persian and Byzantium Empires. Five decades would see 3 generations of people born and a new world order created.

Contemporary evidence of Mohammad is somewhat just like the contemporary evidence for Jesus and Hercules - funny that.
 
Last edited:
Interestingly he's trying to make some type of historical point but don't know the timeline.

The restriction of 4 wives came after all of his marriages-
You can find the information in the Quran as well.

Peace be unto you ;)
Now that is just silly. Your argument is Mohammad didn't know about Allah's millennial old 4 wives rule? He made an exception for himself - for whatever reasons.

Also, again, if we think of Mohammad and his magical companions as mythical characters again, it may be that Mohammad having over 20 wives and many mistresses would have been looked upon as a sign of respect - a Big Man, someone the little people could look up to. It's the same reason why Ashia was 9 years old when the marriage was consummated - the story was written as her being 9 to ensure she was a virgin. She was made so young that no one could doubt it. Virgin girls and Lots of them were important to Medieval Arabs. They even make a show as presents in the mythical place called heaven. Obviously for the primitive nomad, having sex with lots of virgin girls was important and something to be boastful and proud of - thumping of the chest and all that. 16 year old boys act pretty much the same even today. Perhaps this aspect of Islam has reached the maturity level of a 16 years old? Maybe that's about as mentally developed as most people reached back then.
 
After I heard that he encourages his followers to kill the infidels, and that he declared himelf to be the last prophet. I thought, how convenient! so nobody would do to with him what he did with Jesus, this is undermining his importance. When I heard he married a rich widower, I thought his spirituality is zero this is a mundane smart guy who took advantage of the ignorance of the people around.
I never really wanted to know much about Mohamed. It really scares me the possibility that it is true he was such a monster.And people are so blind they follow him, I feel really sorry for them, until they figure out how wrong they are they are going to suffer very much. And is all out of ignorance, they just do what they have been taught.

I am not religious but at least from the bible, Jesus or Budha, there is some good message, some valid guidance for the people who follow them, these religions dont promote killings.
 
Now that is just silly. Your argument is Mohammad didn't know about Allah's millennial old 4 wives rule? He made an exception for himself - for whatever reasons.

You truly represent the pinnacle of stupidity on this forum. Did you know the Quran was revealed in 23 years? Do you think he knew all the revelations before they were revealed?

Peace be unto you ;)
 
After I heard that he encourages his followers to kill the infidels, and that he declared himelf to be the last prophet. I thought, how convenient! so nobody would do to with him what he did with Jesus, this is undermining his importance. When I heard he married a rich widower, I thought his spirituality is zero this is a mundane smart guy who took advantage of the ignorance of the people around.

After you "heard"- perhaps you should do your own study (honest study ofcourse) rather than go by hear-say.

Secondly the "rich women" he married actually asked him to marry- not the other way around. Muhammad had a very good reputation as an honest man. Secondly you probably don't know that Muhammad was very poor even after his marriage- they didn't even have soft cushion beds- even after he became the ruler of the land-

I never really wanted to know much about Mohamed.

Just because you "heard"? You are very intelligent indeed :p

Peace be unto you ;)
 
You truly represent the pinnacle of stupidity on this forum. Did you know the Quran was revealed in 23 years? Do you think he knew all the revelations before they were revealed?

Peace be unto you ;)
Please provide some scientific evidence to back up your claim. That is what you're always asking for 786 - so do it.

Anyway, the "revelations" were not from Allah 786 - Mohammad decided what was and wasn't "reveled". Were there any OTHER Muslims that had more than 4 wives? Or somehow only Mohammad happened to take more than 4 over these 23 years? Because if we went withou your hypothesis then there is no reason many, if not ALL, the other companions wouldn't have ALSO taken many more than 4 wives.

As an Islamic apologist you need to think a little bit more before you post.
 
After you "heard"- perhaps you should do your own study (honest study ofcourse) rather than go by hear-say.

Secondly the "rich women" he married actually asked him to marry- not the other way around. Muhammad had a very good reputation as an honest man. Secondly you probably don't know that Muhammad was very poor even after his marriage- they didn't even have soft cushion beds- even after he became the ruler of the land-



Just because you "heard"? You are very intelligent indeed :p

Peace be unto you
Oh, don't go by hearsay hey? OK then, please post your "scientific evidence" that Mohammad was asked to marry, the Mohammad had a good reputation and that Mohammad was "very" poor.

Hell, I wouldn't even mind some contemporary evidence that Mohammad even existed! :D

Peace be upon you ;)
Michael
 
Oh, don't go by hearsay hey? OK then, please post your "scientific evidence" that Mohammad was asked to marry, the Mohammad had a good reputation and that Mohammad was "very" poor.

Hell, I wouldn't even mind some contemporary evidence that Mohammad even existed! :D

Peace be upon you ;)
Michael
Can I ask you a question?

What contemporary evidence do you have that the man did not exist?
 
Mods should put any thread you make automatically into the cespool. That is where the "unintelligent" debate happens.

Why do you continue then?

I'm not the one who needs to provide proof- go read a history book. If you strongly feel they are wrong then you are the one who needs to provide the evidence.

History would show you to be wrong in many of your arguments.

It is funny how you are ducking the challenge ever time and pinning it on me. You have YET to provide a single piece of evidence

And what evidence have you provided. Ziltch, nada, nothing. Michael has presented a case in which you've done nothing but ignore and insult. The focus of the case is what you're upset about as it deals specifically with your cult doctrines, which is strictly forbidden to criticize.

so put up the evidence or STFU-

Peace be unto you ;)

How utterly contemptible. Why not just stick a knife into his back?
 
Muhammad had a very good reputation as an honest man.

Please provide the evidence for that claim. The Quran is not evidence.

Secondly you probably don't know that Muhammad was very poor even after his marriage- they didn't even have soft cushion beds- even after he became the ruler of the land-

Evidence and sources.
 
After you "heard"- perhaps you should do your own study (honest study ofcourse) rather than go by hear-say.

Secondly the "rich women" he married actually asked him to marry- not the other way around. Muhammad had a very good reputation as an honest man. Secondly you probably don't know that Muhammad was very poor even after his marriage- they didn't even have soft cushion beds- even after he became the ruler of the land-



Just because you "heard"? You are very intelligent indeed :p

Peace be unto you ;)

We do not need to go too deep to know who he was. If he was such a good person he would have never promoted killing others who did not believe in him. We would have promoted forgiveness instead, just like the jewish did with the germans. Now some of Mohamed's followers are willing to commit suicide for him just to kill others human beings! what kind of a monster will encourage that? Where is his spirituality??:eek:
 
Here 786
how can any one follow a religion that promotes killing of their own daughters? Read the links below about muslim fathers who killed their daughters. These are real proof of who Mohamed was, this is what Mohamed teaches? If his followers are willing to kill their own daughters what can the rest of us expect from muslims?

www.financialpost.com/conrad_black/story.html?id...
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1164540.
www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071211175557
sweetness-light.com/.../muslim-kills-wife-because-daughters-christian-conversion - Cached - Similar -
www.jihadwatch.org/.../muslim-fathe...eaving-islam-muslims-claim-victim-status.html
newsrealblog.com/.../muslim-mother-hires-hitman-to-kill-daughter/ -
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99616128

And many more links....
Aren't you ashamend of yourselves to do this to women?? If Mohamed justifies this behavior he is the Antichrist and this is the proof.
 
Some of the links I posted in # 98 are not working. Just search in Google:
muslims killing daughter there are thousands of links.
 
Although these cases pretty bad,I don't think that this is the view taken by most Muslims only a small portion,I was brought up a muslim but as I learned more about science etc I believe that the only reason people believed in god was because they needed something to fill in the blanks, but now we are in a advanced age where these irrational ideas should be forgotton completely and instead we focus on how to preserve ourselves(Global Warming,Fuel etc) and whats more is that if people did see reason instead of mindlessly folowing their parents religion, then this world would have less deaths and more good things.Thats beside the point about Mohammed i think he was a real person but i think he used god as an excuseto get whatever he wanted such as woman,power and money, after he conqured Mecca he could probably have done whatever he wanted without anyone questioning him, even if they did doubt him they weree probably executed.Lastly I would like to say that the Abrahamic God supposadly punishedthe wicked then how come so many inocent people are murdered and they never get anything except 20 years, rapists etc should have had there punishment but as far as recorded history can tell this has never happened so basically no god
 
Back
Top