Misogyny, Guns, Rape and Culture..
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but when you blame them for the attacks against them you are devaluing their efforts
Trooper said:
I would say nice try except it really was a cheap attempt to change the subject. We were discussing rape prevention, not death prevention.
Neither fighting back nor submitting can be proposed as a "survival tip" or "death prevention tip".
It is never a woman's failure to prevent rape. It is a rapist's failure to respect humanity.
If you try to put the "fail" on victims, you're doing it wrong.
And there really is no serpentine sleight of tongue you can offer to change that.
It's the devaluing of their choice of effort, their lack of what you regard as suitable "preparation", which is visible in your description "you fail".
That is what we see, permeating the US culture and prevalent in so many abusive patriarchies, as blaming the victim. It is a direct consequence of having the major and first mentioned and highest priority rape-prevention measures in a society being focused on what burdens and curbs on their lives women should adopt in self-defense. It's so automatic in such situations even its codification in law (did she cry out, did she fight back, was the divorce final, was she defensively and modestly dressed, did he use a weapon or harm her otherwise, did she agree to accompany him or allow his presence, etc etc etc ) is often unremarked.
Iceaura said:
I would only point out you omitted the one about, "Did he shred her vagina?"
To the other, whether that was an omission of memory or information you haven't encountered, or simply an observation of general decency, I don't fault you for its absence. That's one I would hope to forget, except it's seared into my memory.
Monkeys with keyboard equivalents have been the primary instigators of change in the world for about 400 years now.
And if it is actually impossible to establish and locate priority for rape prevention within the societal groups currently responsible for generating and abetting and protecting rapists, at least it is possible to avoid dissembling, avoid excusing, and avoid victim blaming, when monkeying on keyboards.
Maybe that way we can, by some incredible and never to be expected dispensation of grace, achieve the state once common in the US and still found in even the larger cities of Canada and such places: women feeling no need to lock their front doors or carry Mace on their keychains or stash guns in their backpacks or get a group to walk anywhere or practice how to get out of a chokehold, and not expected to, and yet in the end not a bit more vulnerable to sexual assault than the small-lived barricaded female residents of demographically equivalent neighborhoods of Anytown, USA.
Trooper said:
Trooper, are you really so stupid as to think we're just talking to the rapists? Or is this yet another one of your sick, dishonest distractions?
Whichever it is, either get honest or get a little smarter.
You just got called out and tried to transform the discussion from rape to death. And when that was pointed out to you, it turns out the next attempted misrepresentation is to suggest that discussions of rape culture are aimed solely at the rapists.
And when you lie like that in order to distract the discussion, you are lending your efforts to the support of rapists and rape culture.
Stop aiding and abetting rape culture, Trooper.
There is nothing honest about your "secular sanity", Trooper.
To the other, you're welcome to claim that you're actually mentally incompetent, but that only explains why you're so dishonest; it does nothing to change the fact of your dishonesty.
For the fourth or fifth time, no, that's not where your betrayal and victim blaming comes in.trooper said:
See the several earlier posts. It's not the world that needs changing - it's some contingent and apparently malleable characteristics of your immediate society - you and your neighbors. Step one is to stop reinforcing them.
Taking it from all directions, Trooper, aren't you. It happens around here.
As a gesture of support, though, it would appear that your mental capacity for it is in tune with your thoughts upon preparedness in general.
Don't take this as a sign of any huge respect for Norman Mailer, but:
"There is no greater impotence in knowing you are right and the wave of the world is wrong, but the wave crashes upon you".
Not the greatest quote in the encyclopaedia of quotes, but it will suffice.
Perhaps the neatest thing about quotes, is that one can often take them at face value, while ignoring the reality of the man who penned the words. Orson Scott Card being a case in point. Robert E Howard. Et al.
....
With regard to post #209, Tiassa, I'll say this:
Many years ago, when I first stumbled upon this place, I regarded you as a "worthy adversary". I may not have agreed with your ideals, to state things lightly, but I had respect for your integrity in expressing them.
As the years rolled by, however, I have changed my stance on that. You have, time and again, seemed determined to consign yourself to the ranks of the merely ridiculous.
I've said it once before, and I'll say it again now.
You would make a superb politician. Which is why I found your accusations of intellectual dishonesty so profoundly amusing.
That, and the title "The truth comes out". As if you were attempting to "expose" something that wasn't already quite clearly expressed.
You little Ellsworth Toohey, you.
IceAura:
The quality of this exchange might be increased, were you to find the strength to simply stay out of it.
I'm quite aware that this site relies upon traffic in order to exist, but there is little evidence to indicate that all traffic is equal. You add volume; not substance. Unfortunately, as far as the internet is concerned, the terms have become synonymous.
Although I do have to admit that perhaps this little exchange speaks more to the heart of the issue than is generally realised. We come here to write about our thoughts and our ideals. We are here for recognition, as human beings. It is in our nature not to succumb lightly to being relegated to the insignificant.
And perhaps, in there, there are some little clues as to why the rapist is not as simple as most would make him out to be.
I find it interesting that those who profess to be the most understanding and tolerant, are often the very same ones who demonstrate the least capacity for it. Our attempts at understanding those who commit the crimes most often come after the crime has been committed; and only within the confines of one's own ideals.
Hard words and soft eyes are not mutually exclusive.
As a gesture of support, though, it would appear that your mental capacity for it is in tune with your thoughts upon preparedness in general.
Don't take this as a sign of any huge respect for Norman Mailer, but:
"There is no greater impotence in knowing you are right and the wave of the world is wrong, but the wave crashes upon you".
Not the greatest quote in the encyclopaedia of quotes, but it will suffice.
Perhaps the neatest thing about quotes, is that one can often take them at face value, while ignoring the reality of the man who penned the words. Orson Scott Card being a case in point. Robert E Howard. Et al.
....
With regard to post #209, Tiassa, I'll say this:
Many years ago, when I first stumbled upon this place, I regarded you as a "worthy adversary". I may not have agreed with your ideals, to state things lightly, but I had respect for your integrity in expressing them.
As the years rolled by, however, I have changed my stance on that. You have, time and again, seemed determined to consign yourself to the ranks of the merely ridiculous.
I've said it once before, and I'll say it again now.
You would make a superb politician. Which is why I found your accusations of intellectual dishonesty so profoundly amusing.
That, and the title "The truth comes out". As if you were attempting to "expose" something that wasn't already quite clearly expressed.
You little Ellsworth Toohey, you.
IceAura:
The quality of this exchange might be increased, were you to find the strength to simply stay out of it.
I'm quite aware that this site relies upon traffic in order to exist, but there is little evidence to indicate that all traffic is equal. You add volume; not substance. Unfortunately, as far as the internet is concerned, the terms have become synonymous.
Although I do have to admit that perhaps this little exchange speaks more to the heart of the issue than is generally realised. We come here to write about our thoughts and our ideals. We are here for recognition, as human beings. It is in our nature not to succumb lightly to being relegated to the insignificant.
And perhaps, in there, there are some little clues as to why the rapist is not as simple as most would make him out to be.
I find it interesting that those who profess to be the most understanding and tolerant, are often the very same ones who demonstrate the least capacity for it. Our attempts at understanding those who commit the crimes most often come after the crime has been committed; and only within the confines of one's own ideals.
Hard words and soft eyes are not mutually exclusive.
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This and That
Telling rape survivors they have failed is victim blaming: "If you fail to prepare, you fail."
It's pretty awful, Trooper, that the best merit of your argument is that some victims aren't survivors, and thus will never have to witness your terrible cruelty.
And in truth, I find the general lack of human empathy you've shown over the years just as disgusting now as it always was.
There's something to be said for arguing for the sake of arguing. It's a safer form of recreation than, say, casual one-nighters. To the other, it can also be remarkably cruel to people not present for the argument.
I can't wait to see this explanation.
This is one of those points that would be much more effective if it was connected to something. Well-written, certainly; its relevance, however, is left for you to establish.
Trooper said:
Telling rape survivors they have failed is victim blaming: "If you fail to prepare, you fail."
It's pretty awful, Trooper, that the best merit of your argument is that some victims aren't survivors, and thus will never have to witness your terrible cruelty.
• • •
The Marquis said:
And in truth, I find the general lack of human empathy you've shown over the years just as disgusting now as it always was.
There's something to be said for arguing for the sake of arguing. It's a safer form of recreation than, say, casual one-nighters. To the other, it can also be remarkably cruel to people not present for the argument.
I can't wait to see this explanation.
This is one of those points that would be much more effective if it was connected to something. Well-written, certainly; its relevance, however, is left for you to establish.
Bells
Staff member
"if you fail to prepare, you fail."
Naw, not victim blaming as well. Telling rape victims that if they fail to prepare, then they fail is only not victim blaming in your own mind. The absolute hysterical irony of your ridiculous argument is that you scoffed at the very thought of teaching children to respect women and men and to not rape. But telling rape victims they fail if they did not prepare? No problem at all.
Is there a rape prevention merit badge? Brownie points?
Quick question..
Authorities are looking for one or more intruders who they say broke into the Wichita home of a 100-year-old woman and sexually assaulted her.
How did she fail to prepare?
Thankfully most parents don't tell their daughters that if they fail to prepare when it comes to rape, then they are failures or that they fail.
Poor widdle rapists. Such a complicated and complex fellow. If only the damn sluts hadn't said no, he wouldn't be a rapist. If only she'd offered him a cup of tea afterwards. Perhaps even a cookie.The Marquis said:
Yes, because the true crime is to expect a rapist to keep it in his pants and not force someone to have sex with them.
How intolerant we are of rapists. How mean and horrible. We should show compassion.
Myself included. Perhaps if I'd offered him some cookies and coffee at the start, he might not have tried to beat my head in. I was so intolerant that I did not stop to think about why he did what he did before I called the police while screaming for help.
** Induce vomit here **
No, really, what the hell kind of claptrap are you trying to pull here Marquis?
Talk about romanticising the rapist. He's not what he's made out to be? Our intolerance and lack of compassion for rapists? Do you want a violin to play sweet melodies while you wax the lyrical about that one?
Words and Pictures
There is a rising assertion of affirmative consent in the American political discourse; we'll see how much traction it gets. Nonetheless, the major downside of explaining it with pictures is that, unlike, say, the instructions printed inside a box of condoms, some explanations still require words.
There is a rising assertion of affirmative consent in the American political discourse; we'll see how much traction it gets. Nonetheless, the major downside of explaining it with pictures is that, unlike, say, the instructions printed inside a box of condoms, some explanations still require words.
Oddly enough, that appears to have been posted as an objection to somebody who has been advocating for a primary focus on the rapist and their origins and their community support, as the first and loudest and most serious priority in any rape prevention efforts.marquis said:
But that must be deceptive appearance. Surely the reference to this "most" who are attempting to deal with rapists simplistically, as spontaneously and inevitably emergent cartoon villains immune to initiatives and circumstances and social pressures and public efforts at deflection or discouragement, would be a reference to people like - say - "marquis", or "trooper", for whom any given prevalence of rapists is "the world" and not something one can change. Right? It certainly wouldn't be a reference to anyone who has been advocating throughout for more attention to rapists and their societal support, surely - by anyone capable of reading for content rather than volume, anyway.
Side matter: there's an ongoing confusion, in the victim blaming circles, about the term "rape prevention". It's a bit vague, granted, but there's still something odd about using the term for teaching women how to fight off a rapist mid-assault or avoid any situation a waiting rapist could take advantage of. Aside from the obvious implications of oppression and onerous stricture on women for fairly small percentage gains in alleged safety, it's kind of like "preventing" suicide by teaching depressed people how to handle their own deliberate drug overdoses or making sure they are never alone with dangerous equipment. One usually reserves the term "prevention" for efforts to reduce the prevalence or capability of the causes, the active agents - one treats depression and similar causative factors in suicide, one prevents cholera by cleaning up the public water supply, etc. Having everyone boil their water is emergency, temporary, epidemic advice, for when prevention has failed - "cholera prevention " refers to public health measures ensuring clean water and proper sewage disposal.
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But this case wasn’t about some typical American male not getting some snatch, it was about some atypical, likely psychologically compromised individual who felt disrespected by a woman and her boyfriend, and shot six people in an apparent irrational fit of rage.
So your belief that such behavior is typical of men in that grieving community is suppose to give them comfort?
You’re missing the point. Slave holders could argue that losing control of their slaves would compromise their social and physical well being, just as women who desire to control the fate of late term fetuses do. Both may enter into their respective enterprises with an expectation of control over their property until society redefines the nature of that property.
When someone like yourself fails to acknowledge the qualitative physiologic likeness between late natal and postnatal development, and bases survival worth on a state of proximity, how do you address such nonsense? I say such absurdity deserves to be countered with more of the same.
Like I said, none were personally accepted, and additionally, many not rationally perceived.
Walking in Memphis
Kittimaru, quit with the memes; they aren't necessary. If you can't convey your indignation in words, then don't do so at all. I was called out earlier today (quite correctly) for not reading preceding posts in a thread; my skimming habit has developed largely as a result of being constantly forced to scroll rapidly through clutter and noise in order to find anything worth reading. That doesn't only apply to memes, of course, but the point is inclusive of them.
Your take is incorrect, at any rate; that isn't what I said. Tiassa was quite right, really - that comment was a little disconnected from the main topic. I get that way, sometimes. By way of explanation (or perhaps excuse), I find it difficult to remain focussed on one thing at the expense of seeing the wider view. I've never believed that a solution to any particular problem can be found without considering the consequences of that solution across the entire operation.
I believe that if I were ever to write a novel, I'd still be unsatisfied that I did not have the capacity to convey everything I meant to say. A novel is something too large for me. Or perhaps... too small.
A meme is simply laziness - aptly suited, perhaps, to this environment, but loathsome nonetheless.
Tiassa:
Such a charged word to use, particularly when the real difference between empathy and sympathy are not commonly understood. And used in a discussion concerning rape, no less. I'll assume, if you like, that you've had the experienced of being raped and can indeed empathise. Is that what you're trying to tell me?
Although I suppose I can give you a hall pass based on your preceding "general lack". I'll assume you meant that deliberately, as opposed to just using it for padding. My general lack of empathy. All right.
I read your little "walk on by" story, a couple of days ago. I suppose I have to give at least some credit for you being honest, assuming, of course, that you were; but at the same time I'm mindful that I sometimes dole out these little tidbits myself. I like to see how people try to use them.
I myself have been in a similar situation. One which did not concern rape, but nonetheless a situation in which a very young child needed help. I was young myself, not yet even a teenager; but I did not fail.
I sometimes wonder if I would fail as an adult. I don't think so.
Have you seen the movie Tigerland? I'm Bozz. I'm Paxton, too. I would get out of that van as Bozz did; and I would like you a little less for making me.
I very much doubt you'd ever understand why.
You, on the other hand, don't have the same motive. Those little confessions, they're an example of your pain, aren't they. Your understanding. Your compassion. The weight of the world, upon your shoulders. All of this, around you... the suffering. the pain. The pain. Oh, God, the pain.
Can they not see how you suffer? For them. And when you did fail, once... oh. Your humanity. Your suffering.
You're a John Lennon lookalike whom no one has gotten around to putting a bullet into yet. The General of the Disenfranchised. Or perhaps... you'd settle for being a lieutenant. But not a private, right? Oh, no.
You claim to be empathic. But you're ready and willing to use a post, twist it into an unrecognisable mess to pursue your own agenda. To further your own ideals. What exactly is it that makes you any different to those currently engaged in furthering their own ideals on the border of Turkey? They believe as much as you do.
Oh, right. you just attempt to demolish egos. From a distance. With a metaphorical, carefully annotated pen.
The perfect, victimless, white collar crime.
And you'd make it illegal, if you could. If you were the victim. But not until.
You find me disgusting? All right. I can accept that. I find you to be... merely ordinary.
My emotions, Tiassa, aren't for sale to any Japanese businessman who can put a couple of bucks into a vending machine for a schoolgirl's used panties.
You're welcome to interpret that as a lack of empathy. I, however, do not.
Come back at me, yo.
Or you can sit back and ignore, pretend you're above all that. Show me your ... empathy.
Give it to me real.
...
Trooper - that's the second time you've tried to slap me in a few days.
I'm not trying to seduce you, you know. Well... maybe a little. But only to the extent a man walking into a crowded party will always put on the charm in order to gain the attention of the attractive women in the room.
That, by the way, was not an invitation to explore the merits of my own particular brand of... charm.
Or whether or not you want that particular person to offer his support.
As we're all told with authority, but also, curiously, often only admonished - No means No.
Doesn't it.
Touched down, in the land of the Delta Blues...
in the middle of the pouring rain.
Kittimaru, quit with the memes; they aren't necessary. If you can't convey your indignation in words, then don't do so at all. I was called out earlier today (quite correctly) for not reading preceding posts in a thread; my skimming habit has developed largely as a result of being constantly forced to scroll rapidly through clutter and noise in order to find anything worth reading. That doesn't only apply to memes, of course, but the point is inclusive of them.
Your take is incorrect, at any rate; that isn't what I said. Tiassa was quite right, really - that comment was a little disconnected from the main topic. I get that way, sometimes. By way of explanation (or perhaps excuse), I find it difficult to remain focussed on one thing at the expense of seeing the wider view. I've never believed that a solution to any particular problem can be found without considering the consequences of that solution across the entire operation.
I believe that if I were ever to write a novel, I'd still be unsatisfied that I did not have the capacity to convey everything I meant to say. A novel is something too large for me. Or perhaps... too small.
A meme is simply laziness - aptly suited, perhaps, to this environment, but loathsome nonetheless.
Tiassa:
Empathy.
Such a charged word to use, particularly when the real difference between empathy and sympathy are not commonly understood. And used in a discussion concerning rape, no less. I'll assume, if you like, that you've had the experienced of being raped and can indeed empathise. Is that what you're trying to tell me?
Although I suppose I can give you a hall pass based on your preceding "general lack". I'll assume you meant that deliberately, as opposed to just using it for padding. My general lack of empathy. All right.
I read your little "walk on by" story, a couple of days ago. I suppose I have to give at least some credit for you being honest, assuming, of course, that you were; but at the same time I'm mindful that I sometimes dole out these little tidbits myself. I like to see how people try to use them.
I myself have been in a similar situation. One which did not concern rape, but nonetheless a situation in which a very young child needed help. I was young myself, not yet even a teenager; but I did not fail.
I sometimes wonder if I would fail as an adult. I don't think so.
Have you seen the movie Tigerland? I'm Bozz. I'm Paxton, too. I would get out of that van as Bozz did; and I would like you a little less for making me.
I very much doubt you'd ever understand why.
You, on the other hand, don't have the same motive. Those little confessions, they're an example of your pain, aren't they. Your understanding. Your compassion. The weight of the world, upon your shoulders. All of this, around you... the suffering. the pain. The pain. Oh, God, the pain.
Can they not see how you suffer? For them. And when you did fail, once... oh. Your humanity. Your suffering.
You're a John Lennon lookalike whom no one has gotten around to putting a bullet into yet. The General of the Disenfranchised. Or perhaps... you'd settle for being a lieutenant. But not a private, right? Oh, no.
You claim to be empathic. But you're ready and willing to use a post, twist it into an unrecognisable mess to pursue your own agenda. To further your own ideals. What exactly is it that makes you any different to those currently engaged in furthering their own ideals on the border of Turkey? They believe as much as you do.
Oh, right. you just attempt to demolish egos. From a distance. With a metaphorical, carefully annotated pen.
The perfect, victimless, white collar crime.
And you'd make it illegal, if you could. If you were the victim. But not until.
You find me disgusting? All right. I can accept that. I find you to be... merely ordinary.
My emotions, Tiassa, aren't for sale to any Japanese businessman who can put a couple of bucks into a vending machine for a schoolgirl's used panties.
You're welcome to interpret that as a lack of empathy. I, however, do not.
Come back at me, yo.
Or you can sit back and ignore, pretend you're above all that. Show me your ... empathy.
Give it to me real.
...
Trooper - that's the second time you've tried to slap me in a few days.
I'm not trying to seduce you, you know. Well... maybe a little. But only to the extent a man walking into a crowded party will always put on the charm in order to gain the attention of the attractive women in the room.
That, by the way, was not an invitation to explore the merits of my own particular brand of... charm.
Or whether or not you want that particular person to offer his support.
As we're all told with authority, but also, curiously, often only admonished - No means No.
Doesn't it.
Touched down, in the land of the Delta Blues...
in the middle of the pouring rain.
- Status