Misogyny, Guns, Rape and Culture..

[Trooper]

Much of what catches the public’s eye are not representative of sex crimes, sex offenders, or sex victims. Unfortunately, most of our rape laws are based on high profile cases such as these.

I think that antisocial personality disorder is just an extreme version of the narcissist. They share too many common traits, e.g., selfishness, rage, elaborate defense mechanisms, hypersensitivity to criticism, fear of rejection, entitlement, lack of empathy, etc.

Why not teach men not to rape? Well, for the same reason we can’t teach certain people not to murder. We don’t have cure for antisocial behavior.

An important part of an overall strategy is to increase bystander awareness, but if you want to increase the likelihood of interventions when rape-supportive attitudes are displayed, then I’d suggest ditching the overzealous feminist attitudes towards rape prevention. Keep it real!

Do you remember when feminists attacked Mrs. Nevada for suggesting that females learn to defend themselves? There are things that we can do to reduce our risk and self-defense is one of them. Men learn how to defend themselves and their family, and so can we. I enjoy being alone. I enjoy backpacking. I don’t want to restrict my activities. I happen to like boxing, and have studied martial arts, but you don’t have to take martial arts classes. There are simple, easy, and proven effective techniques that women can utilize. The best advice that I ever received was to conserve my energy. If you’re pinned, rest. Don’t move until he moves.

Why is rape tolerated in prison? Is it because there’s no access to females, and men have to have sex, or because they house antisocial and violent criminals?

One thing that men might find surprising, though, is that the relationship between tolerance of rape and sexist attitude is stronger than the relationship between tolerance of rape and antisocial behavior.

 

[billvon]

Why not teach men not to rape? Well, for the same reason we can’t teach certain people not to murder. We don’t have cure for antisocial behavior.

No, but we do have a partial cure for stupidity - education.

You are not going to stop all the rapists out there, just as you are not going to stop all the people who kill. But just as many people kill through stupidity (drunk drivers, gun accidents, bar fights gotten out of hand etc) many men rape partly out of ignorance i.e. "she passed out and she didn't say no so it wasn't rape" "I just assumed she was playing hard to get." These are the people that education can help.

Will it stop all rape? Definitely not. But reducing the incidence of rape is a good goal, even so.

 

[iceaura]

An important part of an overall strategy is to increase bystander awareness, but if you want to increase the likelihood of interventions when rape-supportive attitudes are displayed, then I’d suggest ditching the overzealous feminist attitudes towards rape prevention.

Honest to Pete, we are now blaming "overzealous feminist attitudes" for social tolerance of displayed rapist mentality?

This would be the problem in, say, male sports locker rooms, male dominated blue collar work environments, Republican political gatherings, and the like - those feminists out there, overzealous, have created an environment where the "bystanders" that would ordinarily intervene and shut that shit down now feel a new and unprecedented pressure to let it slide - that's the argument.

So back before over-zealous feminists poisoned the well of reasonable male "intervention", we lived in world in which women could count on reasonable intervention and lack of support for rapist attitudes among the men in their communities - that is the claim?

Why not teach men not to rape? Well, for the same reason we can’t teach certain people not to murder. We don’t have cure for antisocial behavior.

Rape and murder rates vary quite a bit between different human communities. Just sayin'.

 

[Kittamaru]

An important part of an overall strategy is to increase bystander awareness, but if you want to increase the likelihood of interventions when rape-supportive attitudes are displayed, then I’d suggest ditching the overzealous feminist attitudes towards rape prevention. Keep it real!

There are no "bystanders" in rape, in my opinion... either you intervene to stop the rape, or you are just as guilty as the person committing the act...

Do you remember when feminists attacked Mrs. Nevada for suggesting that females learn to defend themselves? There are things that we can do to reduce our risk and self-defense is one of them. Men learn how to defend themselves and their family, and so can we. I enjoy being alone. I enjoy backpacking. I don’t want to restrict my activities. I happen to like boxing, and have studied martial arts, but you don’t have to take martial arts classes. There are simple, easy, and proven effective techniques that women can utilize. The best advice that I ever received was to conserve my energy. If you’re pinned, rest. Don’t move until he moves.

This won't help in the case of someone who rapes, then kills the victim - in a case like that, I would think you would be better off fighting like hell - put that adrenaline to use.

Why is rape tolerated in prison? Is it because there’s no access to females, and men have to have sex, or because they house antisocial and violent criminals?

Far as I'm aware... it isn't "tolerated" in prison. It's just a bit harder to deal with... especially with our overcrowded prisons.

One thing that men might find surprising, though, is that the relationship between tolerance of rape and sexist attitude is stronger than the relationship between tolerance of rape and antisocial behavior.

Anyone who "tolerates" rape... I honestly have no words for. How can someone "tolerate" such an act?

 

[iceaura]

Far as I'm aware... it isn't "tolerated" in prison

In the US it's not only tolerated but at times employed as a threat by coercive authorities, referenced with satisfaction in the outside world as appropriate revenge upon criminals of some kinds, and so forth.

This is not inevitable in prisons, btw - even very coercive and abusive and impoverished setups, such as the Chinese prison system under Mao, have been managed so as to be almost free of rape. It's a choice US society has made.

 

[Trooper]

Honest to Pete, we are now blaming "overzealous feminist attitudes" for social tolerance of displayed rapist mentality?

This would be the problem in, say, male sports locker rooms, male dominated blue collar work environments, Republican political gatherings, and the like - those feminists out there, overzealous, have created an environment where the "bystanders" that would ordinarily intervene and shut that shit down now feel a new and unprecedented pressure to let it slide - that's the argument.

So back before over-zealous feminists poisoned the well of reasonable male "intervention", we lived in world in which women could count on reasonable intervention and lack of support for rapist attitudes among the men in their communities - that is the claim?

Absolutely not. When preventive measures do fail, we don’t have to hold the victim responsible. Preventing rape doesn't necessarily promote rape. Teach men not to rape, sure, but do you really want to wait around for a rape free culture? It’s disingenuous to say that rape prevention is ineffective and to make it a politically incorrect strategy is utterly ridiculous.

 

[iceaura]

It’s disingenuous to say that rape prevention is ineffective and to make it a politically incorrect strategy is utterly ridiculous.

That depends on what rape prevention strategies we are talking about.

I think the rape prevention strategies we see in, say Saudi Arabia, are both ineffective with regards to the overall goal, and politically incorrect. With that example as demonstration of principle, we can return to discussing the rape prevention strategies being advocated and promoted in the US without automatically labeling observation of their deficiencies or problems "ridiculous".

When preventive measures do fail, we don’t have to hold the victim responsible

Some rape prevention measures do, however, lead directly to holding the victim responsible in the cfase of an actusl rape. That is not theoretical: we see this happen almost as a norm in the US. Those measures are, to that degree, suboptimal, and others should be given priority - agreed?

 

[Trooper]

That depends on what rape prevention strategies we are talking about.

Some rape prevention measures do, however, lead directly to holding the victim responsible in the cfase of an actusl rape. That is not theoretical: we see this happen almost as a norm in the US. Those measures are, to that degree, suboptimal, and others should be given priority - agreed?

Agreed.

I can’t recall the exact article but I remember reading about India’s rape crisis. Lower female status and sexist attitudes were always present. So, that really couldn't explain the sudden spike, but female-to-male ratios could. Ah, sexist sex selection, a double whammy.

 

[Kittamaru]

In the US it's not only tolerated but at times employed as a threat by coercive authorities, referenced with satisfaction in the outside world as appropriate revenge upon criminals of some kinds, and so forth.

This is not inevitable in prisons, btw - even very coercive and abusive and impoverished setups, such as the Chinese prison system under Mao, have been managed so as to be almost free of rape. It's a choice US society has made.

This is, again, a problem of people... the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003 would seem to indicate that jail rape is not, in fact, acceptable or tolerated...

But, then again, murder has been illegal for a long time, and it still happens...

 

[billvon]

Some rape prevention measures do, however, lead directly to holding the victim responsible in the cfase of an actusl rape. That is not theoretical: we see this happen almost as a norm in the US. Those measures are, to that degree, suboptimal, and others should be given priority - agreed?

Provided those measures are just as effective - agreed. It is never OK, though, to _replace_ rape prevention with rape victim management. By far the best approach to potential rapes is to prevent those rape, not to start planning for the victim's treatment.

 

[Capracus]

This really is an American cultural issue.

Perhaps it's time for women to strap on, stand their ground, and start shooting any man who tries to chat them up? Is that really how we want things to go?

Yah, it’s common in American culture for men to open fire on female strangers for rejecting their advances. If this assertion had any actual basis in fact, then it would be reasonable for woman to interview prospective romantic partners at gunpoint.

But this personhood thing is real, and nobody ever has given substantial address to the inevitable Fourteenth Amendment clash. And the personhood advocates are as close to success as they have ever been. And a Supreme Court justice just admitted that he deliberately favors religious folks.

Sounds similar to the arguments given by 19th century American slave holders, about how granting personhood to their then legal captives would affect their constitutional rights of property.

But, yeah, we tried for well over a year to get some answers from anti-abortion advocates at Sciforums. None were forthcoming.

You mean none were personally accepted.

 

[Kittamaru]

Capracus - except in this case, you are directly trading (or trying to trade) one life for another

 

[Tiassa]

Turducken, Turducken, Turducken

Yah, it’s common in American culture for men to open fire on female strangers for rejecting their advances. If this assertion had any actual basis in fact, then it would be reasonable for woman to interview prospective romantic partners at gunpoint.

Violence in response to not getting some snatch is all too common in American culture. And, besides, your beliefs are of no comfort to the dead, or the living, grieving community.

Sounds similar to the arguments given by 19th century American slave holders, about how granting personhood to their then legal captives would affect their constitutional rights of property.

I've done the joke before, for someone else, but we really should go out and catch a flick together. There's a cinema in town that plays old classics; they might have Dracula later this month, starring Bela Lugosi as the outsized zygote.

The problem with your argument is that slaves did not exist inside a person's body.

That is, of course, unless your argument presumes women aren't people. You know, like maybe they're mere locations.

You mean none were personally accepted.

No, none were forthcoming.

Unless, of course, you count evasion and excuses, unsupported ontological presuppositions for the sake of argument, the rights of men, the rights of corpses, and what the fuck happens if you stuff the baby back inside the woman somehow count as relevant answers.

See, it's something a lot of people really don't seem to get:

"What's the weather like today?"

―I don't like that color of red on the walls.

"That's not an answer."

―Yes it is.

"Well, okay, you're right. It's an answer. But to a different question."​

But no. There were no forthcoming relevant answers.

 

[Bells]

I think that antisocial personality disorder is just an extreme version of the narcissist. They share too many common traits, e.g., selfishness, rage, elaborate defense mechanisms, hypersensitivity to criticism, fear of rejection, entitlement, lack of empathy, etc.

And sometimes, someone is just an arsehole.

Why not teach men not to rape? Well, for the same reason we can’t teach certain people not to murder. We don’t have cure for antisocial behavior.

We do teach that murder is wrong. But we don't for rape.

You've never taught your children that killing something is bad? Or explain to them why certain things are very bad and wrong?

An important part of an overall strategy is to increase bystander awareness, but if you want to increase the likelihood of interventions when rape-supportive attitudes are displayed, then I’d suggest ditching the overzealous feminist attitudes towards rape prevention. Keep it real!

And start teaching young boys that girls are not theirs to own and to understand the meaning of 'no' and vice versa.

Do you remember when feminists attacked Mrs. Nevada for suggesting that females learn to defend themselves? There are things that we can do to reduce our risk and self-defense is one of them. Men learn how to defend themselves and their family, and so can we. I enjoy being alone. I enjoy backpacking. I don’t want to restrict my activities. I happen to like boxing, and have studied martial arts, but you don’t have to take martial arts classes. There are simple, easy, and proven effective techniques that women can utilize. The best advice that I ever received was to conserve my energy. If you’re pinned, rest. Don’t move until he moves.

And they don't always work.

It did not work for that poor young woman who was shot two times in the head when she tried to run away from her attacker.

The issue I have with rape prevention is that it sets up this expectation that if you follow steps 1 through to step 25, you won't be raped or that it is your fault if you are raped. And women who correctly go through all the steps can often find themselves killed or even more brutally raped or beaten and often feel a sense of guilt that they didn't do enough to prevent their own rape. What they should be teaching women is psychology and psychology of the rapist, because some rapists get off on certain reactions of their victims. Some like it when they fight back, others like it when they are placid and do not fight back. Some don't care and will beat and violently attack their victim regardless. Some wait to see how the victim reacts. There are different types of rapists and reacting incorrectly or not recognising or understanding can result in being killed.

And frankly, it shouldn't be rape prevention. Do you know what I was told when I took the many self defense classes I took? If it's just rape, you're lucky, because the worst thing that can happen to you is that you are killed. And to not fight back if it looks like the rapist gets off on it, because that may very well end up in my being killed and to have only one goal in mind, to live. It was never about rape prevention.

The other problem with rape prevention is that it leads to rape victims being blamed for being raped, because they did not do enough to prevent it.

Why is rape tolerated in prison? Is it because there’s no access to females, and men have to have sex, or because they house antisocial and violent criminals?

Rape is tolerated and sometimes even joked about or wanted for prisoners because we think that bad things should happen to bad people. Hence the 'don't drop the soap' jokes. We revel in the idea that a criminal is going to get their just deserts in jail, even if it is rape. That it is their time to be dominated and hurt and abused.

Yah, it’s common in American culture for men to open fire on female strangers for rejecting their advances. If this assertion had any actual basis in fact, then it would be reasonable for woman to interview prospective romantic partners at gunpoint.

Women are often killed, beaten or raped or abused for rejecting a man's advances.

For example, 8 pages in, after dozens and dozens of horror stories, we have examples like this:

Detroit police are searching a violent man who shot two people at a BP gas station in east Detroit about 6:25 p.m. Saturday.

A 47-year-old man was killed and a 21-year-old woman shot in the leg.

Police say the victims were in their vehicle when the suspect approached and opened fire before fleeing in a a white Buick Rendezvous with damage on the passenger side.

Witnesses said the woman rejected the suspect’s advances inside the store moments before he committed the shooting, according to WJBK, Fox 2 News.​

Bad things often happen when women refuse.

By page 11, and so many horrific accounts of what happens when women and girls refuse, there was this story:

Cruz confessed to killing his 16-year-old friend Chloe Ottman at Holy Land USA last July 15, prosecutors said. He told police he raped, choked and fatally stabbed the girl when she rejected his advances as they drank at the abandoned 18-acre site on a hillside overlooking Waterbury.

Cruz told police he and the girl had been friends for about two years and that night they met at a local shopping mall and decided to go drinking at Holy Land, which featured a Hollywood-style sign and replicas of Bethlehem and Jerusalem made from scrap wood, chicken wire and other materials.

Cruz told police the girl struck him after he made sexual advances toward her.

"I got so mad at her. I hate when people hit me on the face," he told police, according to an arrest warrant affidavit. "So after she hit me and as she tried to get up, I grabbed her and put her in a chokehold."

He then stabbed her in the neck repeatedly with a folding knife and threw her body in the woods, the affidavit said. Her body was discovered two days later, a day after her parents reported her missing.​

Page 12..

On 24 March 1998, cousins Mitchell Johnson (13) and Andrew Golden (11), dressed in camouflage gear, opened fire from woodland near their school in Jonesboro, Arkansas, while their classmates were engaged in a fake fire drill initiated by the two boys. In a few brief moments they had gunned down 12-year-olds Natalie Brooks, Paige Ann Gerring and Stephanie Johnson and 11-year-old Brittany Varner. Ten other pupils were wounded and a teacher, Shannon Wright later died from her injuries. Significantly, all the victims were female; Johnson and Golden’s targets were girls who had refused to date them. One of the wounded was Johnson’s 11-year-old former girlfriend, Candace Porter, who had broken up with him the previous day.
​

Also on page 12..

He propositioned her, offering to pay her $40 for sex, the papers say. When she refused, he grabbed her by the neck and dragged her into a dark, secluded, semi-fenced lot… threatened to kill the woman if she screamed, tore off her clothes, beat and raped her, stole her purse and threatened to kill her and her entire family if she reported the assault to police, charging papers say.
​

I stopped reading at page 17. There are more pages.

Math Teacher Raped and Murdered by 14 Year Old Student When She “Spurned His Advances”.

This murder happened in my community last fall. A popular student math teacher at a suburban high school was raped with a tree branch and murdered with a box cutter by one of her students. Police are working with a theory that he was “infatuated” with her and attacked her when she “spurned his advances.”


http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/...teacher-colleen-ritzer-pleads-not-guilty.html​

The ones I linked here were just picked out at random. All of them deal with what happen to women when they say no.

Nah, not uncommon at all.

 

[Kittamaru]

*shakes head*

I really don't understand it Bells... as a guy, I simply can't wrap my head around it. To me, it sounds like it's less a "guy" problem and something more fundamental... a lack of respect for human life and dignity. I can't understand the idea that because someone said "no" to you and rejected your advances that you have some right to harm them... how do people come to that conclusion?

I just... I don't understand it...

 

[Trooper]

I would never defend property but my body is not an object. I am my body.

Do you think that it is safe to assume that a rapist just wants sex?

It is fight or flight, not freeze!

The objective of a violent criminal is to control you, emotionally and physically. Everything he does—his threats and promises—is intended to terrify and control you. The more control you give to the violent criminal, even if you see it as temporary, the less likely you are to escape. For most crime victims, their temporary cooperation backfired into full control over them. Time works against the victim and for the criminal. The longer you stall, the more you talk, the deeper you sink.

S. Strong. Strong on Defense. pp. 49-50

 

[Kittamaru]

http://hellogiggles.com/harmful-body-image-compliment

I have yet to meet a woman who has never complained about her body. One friend will tell me she’s too skinny, another that her hair is too dry, and a third that her legs are too lumpy. Meanwhile, I’ll overhear similar things being thrown about between my mother and her friends; “Oh, I haven’t been to the gym in so long!” and “I really must get rid of all this weight! I’m just so wobbly!” I myself have done it countless times, regardless of whether it was my “huge bum” or my “thunder thighs” that bothered me.

Women complaining about their bodies to their female friends has become ridiculously common practice and discussing how they are all fighting together to banish unwanted body evils instills in friend groups a sense of camaraderie.

In the past, these conversations would unravel like they did in Mean Girls: I would moan that my bum is too big, to which my friend would reply with something she hates about herself, and so on around the group of girls present until we all felt better about ourselves because everyone is in misery. These discussions were nauseatingly toxic–yet as of late, I have seen a shift in the script into something even worse.

In the last year especially, when I have mentioned a part of my body I didn’t feel comfortable with and why that was the case, my friends would look at me with consolation and say, “But that’s the way guys like it.” At first, I didn’t know what to reply. So I didn’t. I went home and I thought about it, and I quickly realized that saying what I consider to be a flaw is fine because boys like it could potentially be even worse than us collectively lowering our self-esteem.

Regardless of my friends’ intentions, this sentence does nothing in terms of coming to love my own body. What it does instead is objectify me; it tells me that my value depends on whether a man will like what I look like. “But guys like it that way” is saying that I may not like it, but guys do and that’s what matters first and foremost. It’s telling me that as long as guys like it, I have something to be proud of, whereas the moment the appeal is lost, I can go back to wallowing in self-pity about the way I look in jeans. It’s stating that my body is just here to please a man and if it can’t do that, then it doesn’t deserve any respect or love.

Our very society seems to be losing sight of whats important... and that is, loving ones self

 

[Bells]

I would never defend property but my body is not an object. I am my body.

Do you think that it is safe to assume that a rapist just wants sex?

It is fight or flight, not freeze!

A rapist just wants to over power and dominate someone. Sometimes fight works, other times it can make things worse for you. We are all our bodies, but sometimes, it's best to lay still and wait for an opportunity to fight and escape than to fight and have him kill you for the hell of it or because he doesn't want to have to put up with you struggling. The issue with the belief that self defense is a be all and end all or selling it like that to men and women is that it only applies to a particular type of rapist or it tells women that they should always react in a certain way. Sometimes that way can get these women killed. They aren't all the same and being able to tell the difference can be the result between life and death. In such cases, rape becomes secondary to survival.

 

[iceaura]

This is, again, a problem of people... the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003 would seem to indicate that jail rape is not, in fact, acceptable or tolerated...

But, then again, murder has been illegal for a long time, and it still happens...

Again: communities and even whole societies vary, dramatically, in their rates of rape (including prison rape) and murder. Saying that it's "just people" overlooks some fairly obvious contingencies, and overlooks some fairly obvious possible avenues for reducing the prevalence of rape.

Recognition of basic physical reality would be step one: for example, rape is tolerated, even encouraged at times, in US prisons. It could be much reduced, and it is not. That's the current state of affairs.

Provided those measures are just as effective - agreed. It is never OK, though, to _replace_ rape prevention with rape victim management. By far the best approach to potential rapes is to prevent those rape, not to start planning for the victim's treatment

Which brings up the question of how "effective" is defined and measured, or in this case projected as likely upon the adoption new measures. We have, for consideration, the circumstance that such measures as educating women and forbidding certain forms of sexual assault, such as marital rape, often increases the official prevalence of rape; meanwhile, adopting rape-prevention measures that abet victim blaming often reduce the official prevalence of rape without seeming to improve the lives of women at all.

The major difficulty with rape prevention measures that focus on changing the behavior of rape-abetting males, holding males to account and curbing their privileges in various ways, etc, is not that anyone has shown them to be ineffective, but that they impose burdens and liabilities on men.

 

[Trooper]

Sometimes fight works, other times it can make things worse for you.

Nothing in life is guaranteed. A violent attack is never a win-win situation, but when it comes down to survival, you are on your own. You’re right. Surviving is more important than avoiding rape, and fighting back isn't fool proof, but if you fail to prepare, you fail.