Miracles for money..

[Asguard]

HUH if that was aimed at me SAM im confused as to your meaning. I was trying to point out that if we throw all of them in jail then we remove hope from SOME people. Is removing this a good thing? On the balance of propabilites are all of them acting in there OWN best intrests or are some of them acting for compasionate reasons. These are the things we need to think about before brining in laws that prohibate this sort of action.

My post may be a little disjointed because i first responded to a PM from bells and then here and didnt make exactly the same points in both (im sorry if i go over the same ground but i want to clear my point up)

We currently have 1000's of different kinds of faith healers, new age healers, so called tradional healers, aborigional medicin, complementry alternitive theropie ect

How do we regulate all of this?
Some of it ranges from the down right dangiorous (like the church of scientology) to the emotionally helpful (like "last rights") to things that are actually effective but havent been scientically tested yet (acupuncher and alot of chiness med)

How do we remove the explotation without removing those that honestly seek to help?

i have herd of cases where people have paid 1000's to get a "cure" for inoprable cancer that turned out to be water or a sugar pill. I have also herd the storie of lorenso's oil where the reason it was effective wasnt known but it turned out to be effective.

How does a parliment (or a congress) address this issue in a neat little bill?

 

[S.A.M.]

We have faith healers in India too, the problem is, if you make bills against them, it only drives them underground.

Besides, there are innumerable people who have greater faith in these healers than modern medicine. So is it right to take away this choice? I don't know. But I think we should be careful not to allow our personal beliefs to decide another persons choices.

Even doctors will encourage patients to pray, will encourage them to have faith. Even a doctor cannot enforce treatment if the patient does not consent.

 

[Asguard]

Firstly there ARE cases for forced treatment especially under the mental health acts

Secondly im all in favor of shuting explotive "services" down but i have no idea how to go about it. I dont want a law to be written that say bans priests from admistering the last rights to pts in a hospital or bans a treatment that DOES work simply because its not been fully tested (this goes for private as well as for drug companies with new drugs that are still experiamental)

 

[S.A.M.]

I agree. But that goes for medical specialists and exploitative medicine and big pharma too.

 

[iceaura]

What you get if you don't make some rules ? Transplanting of goat testicles into men to cure impotence: http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9780307339881

John Brinkley not only carried medical an religious placebo effect to its pinnacle of lucrativeness, nearly got elected governor of Kansas, helped pioneer bigtime radio, was probably responsible for the initial popularizing of "country" music (for which he was never prosecuted); but

he was, by some accounting methods, the most prolifically lethal serial killer the US has ever known.

The problem with blessing placebo and "hope" and religious and "why not" treatments is that, like bad money, they drive out the good. Alternatives exclude.

There have been more people killed by the journey to the healing fountains at Lourdes, for example, than have been cured by them.

 

[S.A.M.]

What you get if you don't make some rules ?

The problem with blessing placebo and "hope" and religious and "why not" treatments is that, like bad money, they drive out the good. Alternatives exclude.

There have been more people killed by the journey to the healing fountains at Lourdes, for example, than have been cured by them.

Good, you can start here:

That is just one place in India, there are thousands more

All the best.

 

[iceaura]

Good, you can start here:

Start what ?

 

[S.A.M.]

Telling them that faith healers are like bad money.

Maybe you think that laws will change their minds? You have got to be kidding me.

Couldn't find a cop willing to take on those guys.

 

[Bells]

Sam

Don't you think there should be some level of accountability with the whole practice?

For example, priests are held accountable by the judicial system when they perform an exorcism and the 'possessed' individual ends up dying as a result.Link Don't you think a 'faith healer' who tells a sick person that they are cured and they can cease all medical treatment should be held accountable if that individual ends up dying or gets sicker?

What if that person is encouraged to 'donate' money to the healer with the advice that they God needs it?.. Apparently God is short on cash at the moment and has a going rate for performing miracles..

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam

Don't you think there should be some level of accountability with the whole practice?

For example, priests are held accountable by the judicial system when they perform an exorcism and the 'possessed' individual ends up dying as a result.Link Don't you think a 'faith healer' who tells a sick person that they are cured and they can cease all medical treatment should be held accountable if that individual ends up dying or gets sicker?

What if that person is encouraged to 'donate' money to the healer with the advice that they God needs it?.. Apparently God is short on cash at the moment and has a going rate for performing miracles..

Accountability for what? Faith? VFM? Should we start assessing whether designer jeans are really worth $300? Therapy sessions $200 an hour? A McDonalds everytime you feel low?

People are quite free to spend their money on what they want. Maybe it helps them, maybe it does not, but you can't tell them its right or wrong. All you can do is offer them choices and educate them enough to be able to hopefully make the right one.

Maybe it will be an issue that India has to tackle in the future, but right now, it would be counterproductive

 

[John99]

Up to a point. Bells link does not work but i think, at least in U.S, these people are held accountable and are not out stealing peoples life savings. Not by a long shot because people really do go to prison for that.

 

[Bells]

Accountability for what? Faith? VFM? Should we start assessing whether designer jeans are really worth $300? Therapy sessions $200 an hour? A McDonalds everytime you feel low?

People are quite free to spend their money on what they want. Maybe it helps them, maybe it does not, but you can't tell them its right or wrong. All you can do is offer them choices and educate them enough to be able to hopefully make the right one.

Maybe it will be an issue that India has to tackle in the future, but right now, it would be counterproductive

Of course people are free to spend their money as they so choose. What I am saying is that it is immoral for people like Hinn to ask for money in the name of God, leading them to then believe they have been healed, at times guilting them into giving more than they are able to, telling them God is demanding they somehow pay up... Using money as a bargaining chip in proving just how much they believe. You don't see anything wrong with people like Hinn doing something like this and not being held in any way accountable for it? You're right, I guess our views on what constitutes as being 'moral' does differ between atheists and theists.

Up to a point. Bells link does not work but i think, at least in U.S, these people are held accountable and are not out stealing peoples life savings. Not by a long shot because people really do go to prison for that.

Ah no they are not actually. He can convince someone that God has said to give a certain amount of dollars, and that person could clear out their life savings in proving just how much they believe. Hinn does not have to account for where that money goes. He has, to date, refused to be a party to the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. He is also tax exempt, as is his ministry. So just how is he held accountable John? I'd really like to know because I have looked into it and he does not have to be held in any way, shape or form, accountable for the money that he takes from people.

 

[S.A.M.]

Of course people are free to spend their money as they so choose. What I am saying is that it is immoral for people like Hinn to ask for money in the name of God, leading them to then believe they have been healed, at times guilting them into giving more than they are able to, telling them God is demanding they somehow pay up... Using money as a bargaining chip in proving just how much they believe. You don't see anything wrong with people like Hinn doing something like this and not being held in any way accountable for it? You're right, I guess our views on what constitutes as being 'moral' does differ between atheists and theists.

I think people have a right to choose the kind of treatment they want. Many people favor alternative medicine in India and many others prefer to go to faith healers. Many prefer not to go to a doctor at all and avoid their medicines as something unnatural. Still others live lives as ascetics or abandon their homes and lives for enlightenment. In India, we believe in allowing people to be, even if we disagree with them. Maybe, at some point, we will become enlightened enough to sneer at them and then they can all join the great monoculture.

I think people are entitled to pay Hinn if they want. Its a choice they make for their beliefs like those who make offerings to deities in temples and expect to be healed.

 

[Myles]

:thumbsup: I was flipping channels one night and saw this clown on. I watched it for about 10 mins, which was all I could stomache. I couldn't beleive ppl fall for his BS! I was also starting to wonder if I was watching the shopping network with the amount of crap he was trying to sell.

It's a miracle that you lasted ten minutes. What motr proof do you need ? When you send your donation, don't forget the Lord wants American dollars.

 

[Myles]

I think a lot of you are missing the point. it's not a question of preventing people spending their money as they wish; It's about legislation to prevent these charlatans operating in the first place.

A doctor has to undergo a course of training and, before qualifying, must demonstrate his fitness to practise. So why should "healers" be an exception ? Before being allowed to practise, putative healers should be required to demonstrate their effectiveness under controlled conditions. This would allow no room for bs, anecdotal evidence and so on. I do not see how some such procedure could be regarded as hostile by healers. Anyone convinced he has the power to heal would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate what he can do and, at the same time, testify to god before others.

It would be unreasonable to expect 100% success; A success rate of , say, 75% should be fair.

 

[Myles]

Hey, its survival of the fittest. Whether its American Idol or American Preacher or American President. Its all paid for by the adoring public.

Why not?

I know you are no fan of evolutionary theory , but at least use "the survival of the fittest " in the sense that Darwin intended. You are perpetuating a misunderstanding by those who know nothing of evolutionary theory, despite which they reserve the right to criticize it.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think a lot of you are missing the point. it's not a question of preventing people spending their money as they wish; It's about legislation to prevent these charlatans operating in the first place.

So how are you going to legislate a priest giving counselling? Recommending prayers to those who are grieving? Giving holy water to his parish people when they come to him?

And then go on to say, a yogi who mixes herbs based on traditional lore.

And then go on to say, a priest giving a talisman to whoever comes to him with grievances?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Benny Hinn. Most of us have heard of him and most of us have probably scrambled for the remote to change channel when his face has graced our unfortunate TV's. The great man himself is apparently on a tour at present, traveling in style in his $35 million private jet. Now mind you, his money does not mean a thing to me. He's rich? Great! But it is the manner in which this individual made his money which is downright immoral, especially when one considers his line of work.

Vulnerable people, many sick and infirm, flock to his "miracle crusades", in the hope of a miracle.. of anything really. Sadly, the reality of the 'miracle' is the ability the man has of extracting money from those vulnerable people who are so desperate as to buy into this charlatan. Many of these poor people happened to have been in the crowd at his "miracle crusade" last night, and the result? Well, lets just say no one was cured, but their bank accounts were definitely cured of their cash. So how would such a miracle giver start his 'miracle crusade'? That's right folks, he talked cash first..



Hmmmmm.. I don't remember God demanding money from believers, being taught in Sunday school.. That must be new.

Anywho..

After speaking of God asking for money for 90 minutes, he then sent around his burly security guards to give out donation envelopes to the poor masses.

This is of course, after he abused a woman whose baby started to cry.


Hmmmm..

I wonder if God smacked Mary upside the head whenever Jesus cried...

Now imagine the crowd. Being preached about money and how God apparently needs money, for 90 minutes, then seeing him single out a poor woman with a crying child and abusing her and then seeing big burly security guards come filing down the aisles handing out donation envelopes. You'd be scared not to give, wouldn't you? After all, God has said he needs money and one should never argue with God.. after all.. Papa needs to be able to meet the rising cost of fuel for that jet. You'd either be scared of spending eternity in hell or being beaten up by his private security guards.

And after all of this. When the money had flowed in from the hapless crowd.. well then the miracles started to happen. Although not by Mr Hinn, oh no, can't get that shiny white suit dirty. He had a few locals volunteer to touch the masses, while he channeled God. "God has spoken! God has HEALED that woman over there on the right in the red top.. yes.. YOU..no.. not you.. the other right.."..


Can't walk indeed. I wonder how much money she happened to have 'donated' for the pleasure.

Hi Bells. I am a little confused as to why this topic is in the 'religion' forum, and not in the; 'morals and ethics' or even 'human science. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Jan.

 

[Myles]

So how are you going to legislate a priest giving counselling? Recommending prayers to those who are grieving? Giving holy water to his parish people when they come to him?

And then go on to say, a yogi who mixes herbs based on traditional lore.

And then go on to say, a priest giving a talisman to whoever comes to him with grievances?

Come on SAM, have you no common sense. A priest is not making explicit promises when he recommends praying. Counselling is an informal procees and counsellors of repute have gone through some form of training and , at least, here, are affiliated to a professional body which sets standards.
They offer no guarantees in return for enormous fees; merely an offer of help.

The people I'm talking about are those who claim the ability to heal. They should be subjected to scrutiny and made to demonstrate the powers they claim to have. Is that asking too much ?

Have you checked out "survival of the fittest yet" ? It could b the frst step to seeing the world in a whole new light. If, having tasted Darwin, you can find flaws in what he and sebsequent evolutionists are saying, you will be free to criticize them from a base of knowledge rather than ignorance. Why not give it a tryu ?

 

[S.A.M.]

Come on SAM, have you no common sense. A priest is not making explicit promises when he recommends praying. Counselling is an informal procees and counsellors of repute have gone through some form of training and , at least, here, are affiliated to a professional body which sets standards.
They offer no guarantees in return for enormous fees; merely an offer of help.

The people I'm talking about are those who claim the ability to heal. They should be subjected to scrutiny and made to demonstrate the powers they claim to have. Is that asking too much ?

Depends on what your motive is.

Have you checked out "survival of the fittest yet" ? It could b the frst step to seeing the world in a whole new light. If, having tasted Darwin, you can find flaws in what he and sebsequent evolutionists are saying, you will be free to criticize them from a base of knowledge rather than ignorance. Why not give it a tryu ?

Been there done that.

I was using the lay definition. If the public wants, the public gets. The fittest in terms of public approval, survive.