Yes the Arabic speaking minority in South Western Iran are Arab Iranians.
Maps of Israel, Jordan and Palestine
- Thread starter nirakar
- Start date
Yes the Arabic speaking minority in South Western Iran are Arab Iranians.
What is the difference between "nationality" and "ethnicity". Are the Roma/Gypsies a nationality? Are Jews living in Russia a nationality? Are Jews living in Russia an ethnicity? Are Puerto Ricans a nationality? Is Puerto Ricans an ethnicity?
Puerto Rican might be a good analogy for the Palestinians. If the UN decided to give Puerto Rico to the Tibetans and move the Puerto Ricans to the Dominican Republic because most Europeans can't tell the difference between a Puerto Rican and a Dominican anyway, that would have some parallels to the Israel Palestine situation.
Neither Hamas nor the Palestinian Authority seem like National Governments to me and the occupied territories don't seem free. It does not do the Palestinians any good to pretend to be free. The Palestinians are part of Israel whether Israel likes to admit it or not. Israel is the nation state that controls Gaza. Gaza and the West bank are not like Somalia where much of the land is not under the control of any government. Israel is in control and the Palestinians are political prisoners living within Israel which means Israel is not a democracy.
The Palestinians have never been a nation. The Puerto Ricans also have never been a nation. I think they are ethnicities but not nationalities.
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nirakar, it seems like you are mixing up a few things here as far as ethnicity and nationality.
And to me many of those nations you mentioned in the previous post have caucasian features. Sure their skin may be a little darker but they also live in a desert or at least an area that is mostly warm climate.
And to me many of those nations you mentioned in the previous post have caucasian features. Sure their skin may be a little darker but they also live in a desert or at least an area that is mostly warm climate.
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Arabia is not a nation. Its a geographic locality. Specifically the peninsula between the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. Arabians are peoples who can trace their ancestry to this peninsula. Please discontinue the snarky comments, many of which I've deleted, btw.
This is not World Events or Free Thoughts. Far stricter moderation is done here than other places on Sciforums.
This is not World Events or Free Thoughts. Far stricter moderation is done here than other places on Sciforums.
Puerto Rican is a nationality but they are considered Latin, at least i think that is correct. Dominicans and PRs are pretty easy to tell apart.
Arabians are peoples who can trace their ancestry to the Arabian peninsula, a geographic locality not a nation. QED.
I agree with that part.
That could confuse somebody. Are you distinguishing between Arabs and Arabians?
For who is an Arab I really think language is the key. Certainly there is some Arabian DNA in the Arabs everywhere but it is not as if the Arabians killed and replaced the peoples in the countries they conquered. The people in each Arab nation are descended mostly from the people who were living in those nations prior to the Arab conquest.
How do you define the difference between those words? Also how do you define the difference between ethnicity and race?
Other than the Egyptians and Sudanese none of the Arab peoples are very dark. Arab is not a race; that is why Arabs include both light and dark skinned people.
Hilarious. And you support the Jews? The quintessential tribe based on a shared sense of distinctness in every place they live in?
Well that didn't make any sense. Tell me this: what is different between the Jordanian and Palestinian cultures. I firmly anticipate your answer before...well, I suppose I don't. Google away.
Well, actually it's both for most Jews, as far as genetic analysis indicates anyway. (Meanwhile over a third of Palestinians are actually descendants of Saudi Arabians, actually.) Many people confound Ashkenazim Jewish with "European". Not so. The only real genetic migration between Ashken. Jews and Euros would be migration out of the Jewish population into the European one, since religious prejudice would be an impediment to migration from the European population to the European Jewish one. You could have drift in the Jewish population, but not much introgression, per se, I would think.
(Please note: "Migration" here refers to genetic migration - genetic transfer, if you will. Not a physical migration. I thought I should make that abundantly clear to avoid misinterpretation.)
An interesting question...yet, even a convert would be part of that body of belief. I've never actually predicated my support for Right of Return on genetics or ethnicity, really, although I do enjoy arguing about it. I more feel that Judaism requires a home with national borders where they can't be at the mercy of their neighbours.
...possibly? :shrug: If you convert to islam you can go visit Mecca, though, so the principle seems quite generally accepted (1/5th of the world's population, anyway).
Liar.
If you're not from the Levant or Arabia, you're not indigenous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#Claim_to_ancient_Canaanite_lineage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Kurds#Connection_with_the_Jewish_populations
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I presume you are talking about the alleged major migration into Palestine during the last 200 years? That did not happen. That was Zionist propaganda.
Every Palestinian will be somewhat descended from people who once lived in what is now Saudi Arabia. Every Jew in the Hasmonean Kingdom was somewhat descended from people who lived in Arabia.
Every European Jew is descended partly from Arabians. Maybe a half percent. Every Swede will have a smige of Arabian DNA. People never stopped migrating and intermarrying. Only Geographically isolated pockets have relatively pure races.
The DNA studies do not agree with this idea. If you find a DNA study that does agree with that Idea look at the actual data. I saw a few studies were the Data did not support the summary presumably because the Authors wanted European Jews to not be of European origin. I have looked at both y and MTDNA data. I will provide some links later.
I remember that you and I have already had this discussion.
The racism against Jews increased and decreased repeatedly in the numerous local settings. Look at Jewish non-Jewish intermarriage in America today. When then the racism lowers intermarriage happens. When the racism peaked Jews were killed or fled.
Being Jewish has an appeal for Christians. Who wouldn't want to be the chosen people. If you have children with the God's favorite people your children will be gods favorite people.
Blacks in the USA were faced racism worse than what the average Jew during an average century in an average location faced in Europe. American blacks became a third European in only 300 years. And this was not all about Masters raping their slaves. Henry Louis Gates (considered black) was surprised to discover that his maternal DNA lineage as well as his paternal lineage are European. I accidentally stumbled across a story of a unmarried young white woman in Newbury Ma in about 1690 who killed her child that she had by a black slave father. Society did not approve of unmarried sex, did not approve of interracial marriage, and also did not approve of the killing of that child. She only made history because she killed the child.
You have no evidence that racism prevented Europeans from becoming Jews.
Our eyes tell us that Europeans did become Jews. German Jews looked a little more like Germans than they looked like Russian Jews. Russian Jews look a little more like Russians than they look like German Jews. European Jews look a lot more like Europeans than they look like anybody from the Middle East including European Jews. The DNA studies and my Eyes agree that Eropean Jews are predominately descended from Europeans
The Middle Easterners who look the most to my like European Jews to me are the Kurds 1st and Iranians 2nd. Cohanim DNA studies point at the Sinai Bedouin as being the people most closely related to the the European Cohanim. Palestinians in general and the Sinai Bedouin in particular have a higher rate of having the Cohanim marker than the Cohanim do. So what the hell is going on? My guess is that the Sinai Bedouin are a people who were less married into than were Palestinians in general and than were the European Jews. I think The Sinai Bedouin are the most genetically Jewish people on Earth. I think an ad-mixture from Egypt (not Arabia) made Palestinians look less like Kurds than ancient Palestinians/Jews would have.
The Kurds and Iranians are a mixture of a proto-European people and and Middle Easterners. I think this accounts for their looking more like European Jews than Palestinians do. But why don't Turks look more like European Jews? The central Asian Turks mixed with a Greek looking semi European people after Jews had already moved to Europe. Turkic people are not part of the European mix. Also the proto-European people (source of Hitler's Aryan myth) who invaded Iran and Kurdistan were probably more similar to the northern and Eastern Europeans from whom German and Russian Jews are descended than they were to Greek style people from whom modern Turks are descended.
Bottom line, European Jews are probably about 75 percent descended from European DNA.
I will provide DNA study links later.
I think Europeans Bred into the European Jewish population enough times to make the resulting European Jewish population 75% European genetically.
I think Jews probably bred into the Non Jewish population at a similar rate. If Jews were being killed in Pogroms, and were leaving the Jewish community to be absorbed into the non-Jewish community, and if Jews were reproducing at the same rate as non-Jews, but non-Jews were not merging into the Jewish community then the original Jewish immigrants would have to be a much larger population than they would have to have been if Europeans did merge into the Jewish population as I believe they did.
Based on history I am very sympathetic to the need for a Jewish homeland. It looks like Jews are safe in the USA but you can't tell what American culture and religion will turn into a century or two from now.
Jews face another danger in the USA. Jews may suffer the fate of the Parsis and just slowly fade into the greater secular society. Perhaps racism against Jews actually helped Jews to survive as a distinct people in Europe during the last 2 milleniums.
Bells
Staff member
So Jews can pick either ancestral connection or a religious one? But Palestinians can't? Interesting.
As for the lineage of Palestinians, I won't bother since Sam has already addressed the issue.
It is astounding that you are never this vocal for the Chinese to get out of Tibet to allow the Buddhist their right of return.
Jews deserve or "require" a home, a nation if you will, with their own borders, etc, but Palestinians do not? You think Palestinians should be required or that it was right for them to be forced to vacate their homes for another group who did not even live in the region, but were recent migrants to the area? Do you give up your premises for the new migrants in your country? Pick up and move out with what you can carry? After all, they deserve a home too, don't they?
Sarcasm aside. Jews should be given their own country. They should be given one with their own borders and where they can live as they choose. Move as they want to within said border. Have their own laws and choose their own Government. That is correct, yes?
So why are Palestinians being denied what you think Judaism "requires"? Do Palestinians "require" less because they are not Jews? Are they to be denied the rights you seem to believe the Jews deserve, because they are Jews, all because they are Palestinians?
In short, do you seem to have this fairly obscene argument that it is somehow acceptable to deny people their human rights because of their religious beliefs or their ethnicity? And yes, Palestinians are as much human as Jews are and therefore, have the same rights as Jews have. Yet you are quite vocal in the continual denial of rights to the Palestinians because they are Palestinians.
Emphasis added for obvious reasons.
Well, Jews are an ancient religious group and culture with no other homeland, while Palestinians are Arabs that happen to be born in Palestine and are a part of the larger Arab and Muslim world. Note that few people use this as the sole reason that Palestinians should not be allowed residence in Israel, there are other more immediate reasons for that.
Since whenever Mecca became the holy land for Muslims. It would be just as immoral to disallow Jews from Israel. So we have a moral reason to allow Jews in Israel. From that point, there is no abstract argument for dispossessing Arabs from the place, only the practical one that Jews and Arabs weren't getting along.
Bells
Staff member
And?
Religion now = right to own homeland? What of the Buddhist's? Don't they have a right to their traditional homeland? Why isn't the world doing what it can to restore and protect their homeland?
Is culture the same?
You're going to tell me that a Jew from Yemen has the same culture as a Jew in Israel or in the US or Europe? So much so that they must live in the one homeland that they apparently call home, even though they have never been there, that home being Israel?
And?
Geoff made an important point. Muslims "visit" Mecca. They aren't allowed to stay.
And the greater majority of the Jews in Israel are of European descent.. shall I go on about being part of the white, European world..?
Yeah. Prime real estate and the need for more homes for those 'returning home'. Granted they are returning to a home they or their ancestors have never set foot on before.. but home because their religion denotes it as being "home".
You know.. there is a saying that goes along the lines that if someone is continuously trying to kill you, it could be for a reason. I would imagine being stripped of my home and my belongings, being denied my basic human rights, being treated like a second class citizens with zero rights to move about as I want to, having my diet regulated by an outside source, being under constant threat of an army that is itching to kill me, my children and my family, being forced to live in a concentration camp like zones, being denied proper medical care... all that would wear on a person's nerves enough to force them to want end their oppression by any means available to them. Desperate situations lead to desperate means to end said desperate situation. Is it right to strap on a bomb and kill innocent civilians or fire rockets into civilian areas? Of course not. Just as it is not right to kill innocent civilians from a tank, helicopter gunship or from a bomb dropped from a tank.
Bells
Staff member
What?
Muslims visit Mecca. They don't stay.
After they have visited, they return to their prospective countries and homes.
It is a pilgrimage, not a permanent migration.
Muslims don't just visit Mecca. Mecca is owned exclusively by Muslims, and they wouldn't have it any other way.
The "right" for Jews to return to Israel is explained by the simple fact that it is now a soveriegn country with the right to make it's own rules.
The "right" for Jews to return to Israel is explained by the simple fact that it is now a soveriegn country with the right to make it's own rules.