1. How can one invent something that is?
2. If a strange family from Poland took over the bulk of your house, would you oppose them?
Maps of Israel, Jordan and Palestine
- Thread starter nirakar
- Start date
1. How can one invent something that is?
2. If a strange family from Poland took over the bulk of your house, would you oppose them?
so in other words they shouldn't be considered a people because your bigotry doesn't allow to see them as a people?
Buffalo is wrong and so are you.
just because palestinian nationalism surged due to wanting to prevent outsiders from taking what was theirs doesn't make it illegitimate.
They should not be considered a part of Jordan for the same reason that England should not be considered a part of Scotland and Sweden should not be considered a part of Jordan.
Wherever I have traveled people gradually transition from one kind of people into the next kind of people. Austria was like Germany with a touch of Hungarian/Bulgarian/Serb/Greek/Turkish flavor mixed in. Traveling across India the ethnicities slowly change. Philadelphia is like a cross between New York and Baltimore. Palestinian cooking differs from Lebanese cooking.
Their is no such thing as a people without an identity. Writing suggests that most Palestinians looked Jerusalem as their cultural capital during the 1800s. I have no Idea to what degree the SanJaks were ethnic identities.
I still think of myself as a New Englander and a Bostonian despite having lived in California for 20 years now. When I go back to the Boston area the people there seem a little strange to me now but In California I can see the New Englander/Bostonian in me. Alabama feels more like a foreign country to me than Canada does.
Oakland, Walnut creek, Marin County, San Francisco, San Jose, Sacramento, Mariposa CA, Modesto, Fort Bragg CA, and Ukiah CA all feel very different From each other despite all being in Northern California. They each have their own cultures.
In my travels I noticed that older and poorer places have more distinct local regional differences than than than newer wealthier places like California do.
I have know enough Lebanese people and enough Palestinians to get a feel for the differences and similarities between them. I know nothing about Jordanians.I have seen nothing from the proponents of the Jordan is Palestine argument that suggests that they have given any consideration to who the Jordanians and Palestinians are. I don't know whether Israeli Jews know Jordanians. I don't think that many of the Palestine is Jordan proponents really care about anything other than protecting Israel when they suggest that Jordan is Palestine, therefore even if they saw a difference between Jordanians and Palestinians they would probably ignore what they saw.
I heard a story from an old man from Galilee who had to flee Galilee and who lived outside of the Middle East after 1948 and then moved to Hebron before 1967. He still lives in Hebron. He says Hebron is not Galilee and he is homesick for Galilee. He knows the Galilee that he grew up in is gone forever but Hebron will never substitute for Galilee because Hebron to him Hebron is physically and culturally not like Galilee.
On the other hand this America with it's internet and other changes is culturally not like the America that my mother grew up in and this causes her some discomfort.
Over all Jordan simply is not Palestine and it is absurd to say that it is just because of some lines that the British drew on a map before the British redrew the lines on the map.
If Israel backers want to be honest they should stick to what is real, like that Jews suffered during the holocaust and before the holocaust and deserved to be compensated if any body deserved to be compensated; like that being a minority has historically been dangerous for been dangerous for Jews and therefore they should be allowed to be a majority; like that Jews had as much right to conquer Israel as anybody had a right to conquer any other land;That Israel is the Israeli's home now and Israelis have as much right to not be driven from their homes as anybody else has to not be driven from their homes. Of course Israel backers should not be honest because this dishonesty probably is tactically superior to being honest.
But I am a fetishist for honesty which puts me in conflict with Israel backers.
It's like if I were kicked out of DC and forced to live in Virginia, they are practically the same place. Sure, I might have culturally identified with DC, but that doesn't amount to any practical difference. How insular are we supposed to take these identifications? Israel is the size of a small US state. For Palestinians to claim some mortal sin because they cannot live 50-100 miles to the west is comical.
So, can the Poles move into your house? Whats a couple of yards to you?
?? How can you invent something that isn't? I reiterate:
"I'd be interested to know what massive differences exist [between Palestinian and Jordanian culture]. They must be stunning ones."
"The bulk of"? The partition was actually almost exactly according to the split of the population. Also, how does a "strange family" enter into this? Jews have been living in the ME for thousands and thousands of years. It's not as though a bunch of Hindus showed up. I can't see where you're going.
Do the Poles have an ancestral claim to living in the area? Is their immigration good for employment and agriculture? Have I, perchance, attacked them or put down their ancestors as second-class humans for the past 1400 years?
So Norwegians would be perfectly willing to move to Sweden then? The British to France? The Germans to Austria? And the resident populations would accept them because they all share an ethnicity?
The Middle East has lived as they have through 1400 years of a shared culture and religion, maintaining their distinct separateness as different peoples. They would no more be dispossessed for Russian Muslims as for Russian Jews.
It would or should depend on "who is coming to dinner".
They have distinct separateness and a shared culture and religion? That seems a bit schizophrenic.
Hilarious. And you support the Jews? The quintessential tribe based on a shared sense of distinctness in every place they live in?
And you're British? Living next door to the Irish and Scots? Speak cockney? Scots wha hae? Ach, all the same, are ye, mon? Put all the Irish in Scotland and they'll be singing Loch Lomond? Are you truly this clueless?
Last edited:
Bells
Staff member
Do all Jewish Poles have an actual ancestral claim or a religious one? Or are you saying that a religious claim is the same as an ancestral claim?
In other words, would a Polish Jew have an ancestral claim to land in Israel if the only reason he is a Jew is because one of his ancestors 400 years prior to his birth, converted to Judaism? His ancestor has never set foot in Israel or on the land that is now Israel.
An ancestral claim to land means being tied to the land through one's ancestors.. A religious connection is not enough.. you actually need an ancestral connection..
Let me give you another example. Lets say I converted to Judaism (Orthodox). In a couple of years time, I could claim a right of return to Israel. How exactly is that an ancestral claim? None of my ancestors came from anywhere near Israel in my ancestral history. So how exactly would that be an ancestral claim? My children or grandchildren could also claim the law of return and "return" to Israel, even though I may have never been there nor any of their ancestors. How exactly is that an "ancestral claim"?
Nah, basically it means if you're from New Jersey, they can't just pick you up and throw you in Philadelphia and expect you to like it. Just because you and the Amish are both originally from Europe and are Christians and speak English, doesn't mean you want to live with each other.
Typically pro Israeli. different standards for different people. its ok for jews want to move to a place they hadn't been in couple thousand years and was thousand miles away but its wrong for an arab to want to beable to move 100 miles away to a place his family was removed 60 years ago.
Your never going to get through to the pro-Israeli people. It requires intellectual dishonesty and that's a simple fact.
and to all of you who are going to say I'm antisemitic for saying this all I have to say if F you. Your position requires ignoring facts, distorting facts, and using different standards for different groups. If that isn't intellectual dishonesty than nothing is.
Of course, property rights are important in any society. I wouldn't want to be forced out of my house for any reason. That being said, if circumstances beyond my control led to me settling somewhere else, not too far away, I wouldn't use that as an excuse to start killing people and subjecting my children to the threat of death in war.
being removed wasn't what started the conflict not being allowed back did. and is a reason for war. but of course their arabs not jews so I guess that means their rights count for less.
You would if they were doing it for 60 years. And not just to you, but everyone who lived around you. If your family members were killed, dispossessed, denied identity and treated like second class citizens. You must be familiar with the civil rights movement.