Logical Proof of Intelligent Design

Wes,

One of them I read was "quantum foam".

ANS: I wouldn't see the Big Bang (or anyother creation event) originating from the quantum foam as being the initial creation. It would be a change in form only. One would have to back track to where and how did the Q. Foam come into existance.

To suggest as some have that it has always existed and hence there was no initial enception seems wholly contridictary to me.

That would translate as "We have always existed hence were never created". That simply doesn't seem plausible it is totally contridictory use of terms in a description of an event.
 
/I wouldn't see the Big Bang (or anyother creation event) originating from the quantum foam as being the initial creation. It would be a change in form only. One would have to back track to where and how did the Q. Foam come into existance.

Here's my whacked out take on it:

If there is such a thing as "quantum foam", it could really only exist as an abstract (as there is no space-time in which for it to exist). As such, it is not subject to time, but would be in essence - the source of time.

But of course, I have a hard time conceiving of what could exist outside of a system (that I'm inside of) that appears to be closed.

/To suggest as some have that it has always existed and hence there was no initial enception seems wholly contridictary to me.

Well, prior to the big bang the term "always" loses all meaning no? Hell even the term "prior" regardign the big bang loses all meaning.

/That would translate as "We have always existed hence were never created".

Hmm.. I don't know about that... it was my impression that "quantum foam" would have preceded time. Maybe I got that part wrong. Regardless, it's quite obvious there was a "beginning" to time (for lack of a better way to put it), in the bang itself right?

/That simply doesn't seem plausible it is totally contridictory use of terms in a description of an event.

It's difficult to talk about the beginning because it seems to me that NOTHING makes sense at the "time" of the event. To me it's quite logical that the "origins" of time would elude examination, as it seems to me almost impossible that they make sense in terms of current observations. (and I mean at t=0)

One can hypothesize what type of conditions might have lead to the universe, but can one be sure? That closed system thing comes to mind and gets me going in circles until I get all Taoist with it and accept the is of the origin.
 
Intelligent Design Isn't Scientific

Theory of Intelligent Design as opposed, for instance to the theory of Evolution, is clearly unscientific. The reason is simple.
Intelligent-designers can never be able to point finger to something and say this is 'stupid design' or that thing was not designed. Therefore, their theory cannot be proved or falsified scientifically. It's a metaphysical theory, and hence it must conform with the standards of metaphysics and philosophy in general, and be judged accordingly. In particular, it must not violate the law of contradiction or identy or the excluded middle by hiding behind its fake and flimsy scientifc facade.

:cool:
 
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MacM:

You often make the statement "N ----> (+n) + (-n)" in referring to how the universe came into being, as if it is somehow a profound insight. While few people would argue that 0 = -1 + 1, that is merely a mathematical fact, which in my few can tell us very little about the actual universe.

If you think that our universe consists of an amount "n" of "something", along with an equal amount "n" of the "opposite", perhaps it is time for you to identify what these opposite things are which you're referring to.

Over to you.
 
James R.,

You often make the statement "N ----> (+n) + (-n)" in referring to how the universe came into being, as if it is somehow a profound insight. While few people would argue that 0 = -1 + 1, that is merely a mathematical fact, which in my few can tell us very little about the actual universe.

ANS: You not I have assumed that somehow the formula is thought to be profound. I have not presented it that way and acknowledge it tells us nothing about "How". However, I do think it is heads above those concepts that introduce miracles, magic or Gods as their answer.

It would be nice to understand the "How" but at least there is a mathematically viable concept of "How" which is not advanced by the other listed approaches.


If you think that our universe consists of an amount "n" of "something", along with an equal amount "n" of the "opposite", perhaps it is time for you to identify what these opposite things are which you're referring to.

Over to you.

ANS: You have a slightly different view of this than is meant. For example assuming the (+n) represents our existance then all the time-space, energy and matter that exists in the universe is conserved (-n) in a negative (other) dimension and is not part of our universe but the resovoir that insures no violation of conservation in the overall creation.

So it would not be something that you could ever detect, measure, or manipulate. It is purely metaphysical and unfounded but I would have to say less so than the proclamation of a God which still leaves Creation ex nihilo as being the origin of everything and therefore God as a supurflous addittion to the unknown process.

Perhaps this is something that scientists should look into instead of trying to challenge while giving no other alternative explanations.

What do you think?
 
MacM,
I feel that you are assuming a certain value to the word or title "God" in you response.
Also I have doubts about the need to validate "Conservation" in the way of looking at creation ( "Godless")

Obviously for something to come from nothing conservation of energy is of little relevance.

All this energy coming from nowhere sort of stuffs up the physics a little I think.

The point I was attempting to make is that "our" understanding of virtual particles appearing from nowhere suggests that energy is indeed being created from nowhere and that it goes on being created from nowhere.

How does conservation theory deal with the spontaneous creation of energy?
 
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Quantum Quack,

Obviously for something to come from nothing conservation of energy is of little relevance.

ANS: Since we certainly have no idea how this all came about perhaps you could be right. However, I think it simplifies the possibility to propose a process that doesn't violate conservation.

All this energy coming from nowhere sort of stuffs up the physics a little I think.

ANS:Not if conservation is not violated. That is the very point.

The point I was attempting to make is that "our" understanding of virtual particles appearing from nowhere suggests that energy is indeed being created from nowhere and that it goes on being created from nowhere.

ANS: I partially agree on this point.

1 - Unruh has shown that virtual particles become real particles to an accelerating observer. The energy required to make the conversion comes from the acceleration. That is to say virtual particles while appearing to come from nowhere may infact be part of the universe but at a smaller dimension that we cannot yet detect.

They come from what is generally referred to as quantum foam.

2 - Black Holes are supposed to be absorbing one of the pair and rejecting the other, which leaves it as a real particle. So yes they are coming into existance in the sense that we can detect them but they may also exist in a form going undetected until they appear. That would mean we have a transformation of form and not a true creation ex nihilo.

How does conservation theory deal with the spontaneous creation of energy?

ANS: That would be at the very heart of the concept of the N-->(+n)+(-n). I view mass as nothing more than concentrated energy. Simular to a standing wave in an energy field. Energy and its formation or release is key to existance and is the origin of matter. My view does not assume a +/- mirrow universe (although it wouldn't prohibit it, i just don't think that is realistic).

That is there is a (-n) energy resovoir in a -universe which balances the conservation issue. That alternate universe may or may not contain matter or have physics exactly like ours.
 
MacM:

<i>...So it would not be something that you could ever detect, measure, or manipulate. It is purely metaphysical and unfounded but I would have to say less so than the proclamation of a God which still leaves Creation ex nihilo as being the origin of everything and therefore God as a supurflous addittion to the unknown process.</i>

Actually, it is no improvement at all on the God concept, at least in terms of science. Science demands detectability, measurability etc.

<i>Perhaps this is something that scientists should look into instead of trying to challenge while giving no other alternative explanations.</i>

The big bang theory is a pretty convincing alternative explanation to creation ex nihilo, in my opinion.
 
QQ:

Energy conservation is not required at the moment of the big bang. The laws of physics as we know them are thought to have come into existence with our universe, so before the universe existed there was no law of conservation of energy.
 
James R.,

Actually, it is no improvement at all on the God concept, at least in terms of science. Science demands detectability, measurability etc.

ANS:In those terms I would agree. But in terms of those posing God as the creator ex nihilo, ....Well it eliminates the middleman and O'cam's Razor says it is better.

Perhaps this is something that scientists should look into instead of trying to challenge while giving no other alternative explanations.

The big bang theory is a pretty convincing alternative explanation to creation ex nihilo, in my opinion.

ANS:Then I would hope that you would share with us your knowledge about the origin of the stuff from the Big Bang.

If it was not creation ex nihilo itself, where did the energy and material come from that it used?

You may not like my answer to that but at least I have an answer. Science seems to have none.


__________________
 
MacM:

<i>ANS:Then I would hope that you would share with us your knowledge about the origin of the stuff from the Big Bang.

If it was not creation ex nihilo itself, where did the energy and material come from that it used?</i>

There are many theories, and technically the answer to the question is beyond the reach of our currently-confirmed big bang theory. In other words, this remains an unsolved problem in science right now, until our physical theories are better.

Nevertheless, there are many ideas, including:
* result of a quantum vacuum fluctuation
* result of a collision between two supersymetric manifolds

I'm not saying that either of these is right.

<i>You may not like my answer to that but at least I have an answer. Science seems to have none.</i>

If you have an answer, you haven't provided it yet. "-1 + 1 = 0" is not an answer to the question "Where did the matter and energy in our universe come from?"
 
James R.,

Nevertheless, there are many ideas, including:
* result of a quantum vacuum fluctuation
* result of a collision between two supersymetric manifolds

I'm not saying that either of these is right.

ANS: Good because neither is creation exnihilo. They are change in form not primary creation.

You may not like my answer to that but at least I have an answer. Science seems to have none.

If you have an answer, you haven't provided it yet. "-1 + 1 = 0" is not an answer to the question "Where did the matter and energy in our universe come from?"

ANS: It would be nice if you used the form presented and not invent your own. 1 is a number not a thing. It is only a one and "n" is a variety of things +/- forms. "N" is "Nothingness" and the expression does indeed has signifigance apparently beyond your grasp.

As just explained by the formula they are a bifurcated form of "Nothing" which doesn't violate conservation. Sorry I can't dumb down the concept but it doesn't simplify any lower.


__________________
 
I tend to agree with you MacM -1+1=0. I have been conceptually trying to understand hoiw nothing developed tha potential to become something. And as yet all I have come up with is that Nothing divided into two and reacted to itself thus energy was created...how? I can't say.

In a way it is not unlike the way our imagination works in that we can see nothing and make something of it. Like a blank piece of paper we doodle on.

The thing that is most puzzling is the absoluteness of nothing "before" creation.
 
MacM:

<i>ANS: It would be nice if you used the form presented and not invent your own. 1 is a number not a thing. It is only a one and "n" is a variety of things +/- forms.</i>

That's what I asked you before, but you dodged the question. What is "n", exactly? In algebra, n is a number. In your statement it seems to be some kind of mystical thing which can have any properties you feel are convenient at the time. That's why, to put it bluntly, your statement is unscientific and practically useless.

<i>"N" is "Nothingness" and the expression does indeed has signifigance apparently beyond your grasp.</i>

Apparently so. But if you can't explain your own statement, I doubt anybody else will be able to either.

<i>As just explained by the formula they are a bifurcated form of "Nothing" which doesn't violate conservation.</i>

Bifurcated into what? (This is the third time I've asked.)

<i>Sorry I can't dumb down the concept but it doesn't simplify any lower.</i>

I think you may be right about that.
 
ANS: Let have a look at your above statement.

For your God to have created everything he must also have created time-space otherwise he would not be the original creator.

Take the CTMU approach: That the Universe created itself. Did you do that research on Pantheism yet? If not, then for now you can simply equate Universe = God. I will try to simplify this as much as possible.


Therefore he must create himself ex nihilo

Self-Configuring Self-Processing Language = Universe = God


in absence of time-space before he could then create time-space.

Lets make this as easy as possible: Before space-time, there was no before, during, or after. No time, no logical sequence, no order of events.


Everything that exists must have come from creation ex nihilo, including your God.

You are assuming that God is separate from his creations. How would pantheism hold up here? Perhaps the entire act of creation *is* God, rather than the act of creation being directed by a God or not by a God?


Creation ex nihilo can be expressed as: N------>(+n)+(-n) as a mathematcial principle which doesn't viloate conservation. It requires no God.

Did you just make that up? In my readings I have never come across a mathematical principle that can be equated to creation without a God. Also, what conservation are you talking about? Conservation of energy, momentum, information, national parks?


Your God is deemed a useless complication and would be ruled out by O'cams Razor.

Occam's Razor says, "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"

Okay, how about this: God created the Universe is ruled out because it is not necessary, so you can also logically say that the Universe created itself, which *is* the God (remember, Universe = God). ;-) Hey, Occam's Razor is useful after all!


Now before you launch YOUR "emotionally driven statements" please post specific, verifiable, or at least quantifiable evidence to support the inclusion of your God in the overall greater understanding about our origins.

Why should anyone be held to such a standard that you yourself can not comply with?


What does accepting your God contribute? Nothing. It not only clouds the issue but distorts the conslusions for the evidence and understandings that we have achieved thus far.

Does this prove you are wrong? Of course not. Does it show that in all likelyhood you are wrong. You bet your bippy.

Okay ...

Until next time, adios.





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[1] You wrote: "........ the abstract contains the concrete.....".

It's the exact opposite. The concrete contains the abstract, not the other way around. That is because concrete things can never be absolutely exhausted, and their characteristics are potentially infinine. Moreover, the abstract is always obtained from the concrete through induction which by its own nature has potentially infinite outcome.

Actually the abstract contains the concrete. What do you know about mathematics? The physical (concrete) reality is represented by mathematics. However, the abstract (mathematics side of the story) is not limited by physical (concrete) models. First there are laws of mathematics, and from those laws comes the laws of physics. So, indeed, the concrete emerges from the abstract.

According to the CTMU, the universe descriptively contains that which topologically contains the universe. Concrete objects are physical instantiations of abstract laws.

For example, the decimal expansion of the transcendental number "pi" contains an infinite amount of information. By definition "pi" has a description of the entire history of the universe, and all possible universes, within its non-terminating non-repeating decimal expansion.

[pi^2]/6 = INFINITE SUM [1/x^2]

Concrete objects represent information. The abstract contains the concrete.


[2] ".........Existence is a paradox, albeit a self resolving one...".

I see no paradox related to Existence, and certainly there is no paradox related to Absolute Existence as long as it is treated as something in Eternity not as something run by Eternity.

No paradox related to existence? Not even the big question, "Why existence?" That is paradox within itself.

If you say reality is not a paradox, then you must admit that reality is completely logical; that which is not paradoxical is "logical" by definition.

Paradox is resolved by logic.

ERGO,

Reality is a self resolving paradox.


[3] ".....If the universe is closed, the "information" or entangled quantum states cannot leak out of the closed system.........".

Closed or not, 'information' can never leak out of the universe, because there is nothing outside the universe to leak into.

Right, then you agree that the universe is a closed system.




Principle of conservation of Information ;-)



[4] ".................................................
Spacetime Memory = Compression Waves = Interpretation of Increased Entropy.............Einstein's equation basically says

Einstein Tensor [G] = Stress-Energy Tensor [T]
..........................................".
Look! You have to make a choice here

Choice ... there is your paradox related to existence.


either physics or metaphysics, but not both. Because each one has its own rules and grandmasters. They don't mix.

Or so you would like to think so. Recall that Einstein's Theory of General Relativity was entirely metaphysical when first written, later it was been empirically observed to coincide with physical laws. Metaphysics is an extension of Physics, they do mix and you should know that.


So if you choose physics stick to its rule of thumb: {Don't touch the absolute or mess with infinity}. Furthermore, physics is highly mobile and changing all the time.

Since when have the laws of Physics changed for you? Perhaps you are confusing "physics" with "concrete reality".


You can't place eternal stuff like existence and ultimate goals and purposes on such shifting dunes called physics. Brielfly, if you love eternal principles and the realm where infinity rules and the abstract is king, then choose metaphysics, my friend.

History has shown again and again, that yesterday's "metaphysics" becomes today's
physics.

Yes, the goal is to eliminate the "infinities". The Cognitive Theoretic Model of the Universe utilizes Cantor's transfinite algebra.
 
You're neglecting the fact that there is destructive as well as constructive interference; intersecting waves sometimes complement and sometimes cancel. You also have no additional sources of energy; the total energy in a closed universe is constant, there cannot be a constant increase of the total, thus no compression.


I will respond to the above Raithere ;)

Theoretical physicist Richard Feynman derived the "sum over histories" interpretation of quantum mechanics, where a system does not have a single history, but it has every possible history, and each history has its own probability amplitude. For example, an electron travels from point A to point B by every possible route at once. Each possible route or "path" corresponds to a history.

http://www.maths.usyd.edu.au:8000/u/hughl/PI.html

The amplitude for each history defines the probability of that particular path being followed. The number involves the "action" associated with the history-path, which seems to determine that the path taken, will be the history closest to the "classical" trajectory, in accordance with the law of conservation of energy.

So, waves that constructively interfere, are "re-enforced".

The waves that are out of phase destructively interfere with each other and form cancel, forming a basis of stochastic noise and quantum fluctuations.

Since general relativity is a background independent theory, spacetime must also have its own probability density wavefunctions and sum over histories. Distributed identity. A stratification of probability density functions for relational space-time.

According to the mathematician "John Nash" these waves are analogous to "compression waves", which agrees with the CTMU?

John Nash gives a most excellent equation for spacetime:

http://www.math.princeton.edu/jfnj/texts_and_graphics/Equation_an_Interesting/note2


Equation_an_Interesting




http://www.math.princeton.edu/jfnj/texts_and_graphics/



QUOTE:

Remarks added 22 May 2002: The remarks below are given as they were in a (memo) note that wasn't generally accessible. Now I am not really updating it, but since the equation (vacuum) itself is now included on my "web page" it is time also to include these remarks. At the present time I think the "input" of the gravitational action of matter, etc. might be studied in terms of boundary value problems. Then on one side of a boundary there could be the vacuum equation to be satisfied. And there are some ideas that relate to this. But these are ideas that call for further study.
3 memo of May 31, 2001: The equation is tensor equation which has a parallel or similarity to "wave" equations and can be described in terms of a d'Alembertian operator. It is thought of as of interest as an alternative description of the general relativistic space-time continuum that allows for "compressional" waves rather than allowing only for "transverse" waves. At the present time I am still seeking to find a good "input relation" for matter as the source of gravitation (analogous to the relation found by Einstein and Hilbert for the 2nd order tensor equation of standard GR). The vacuum equation can be described as having (on a LHS side that is equated to zero) a fourth order term formed by the covariant d'Alembertian operating on the G-tensor of Einstein plus an additive portion of second order (as to the differentiation) formed by quadratic combinations of curvature tensor elements. The precise additive portion or set of terms is defined by the condition that the total LHS is so structured so as to be formally divergence free (like the G-tensor is intrinsically divergence free). The plan is to put into this directory, ultimately, files of graphic type including the tensor equations in handwritten form.

---END QUOTE---


If the universe is closed, the "information" or entangled quantum states cannot leak out of the closed system. So the density of entangled quantum states, continually increases, as the entropy must always increase. While to us, it is interpreted as entropy or lost information, it is actually recombined information, to the universe.

Spacetime Memory = Compression Waves = Interpretation of Increased Entropy.

If our universe is a self projecting computer simulation within a simulation within... within a simulation, which is a process, it would need to be an accelerated process.

locally, as the distance between two objects approaches zero, and velocity is low, space-time is a Euclidean geometry.

As the distance between two objects increases, space-time is a "non-Euclidean" geometry.

This non-Euclidean geometry uses a Euclidean tangent vector space to approximate its curvature properties. "tangent vectors".

Is it possible to derive Einstein's field equation strictly in terms of quantum mechanical operators? using n-dimensional cross sections of cotangent vector spaces? Near a massive object M, the *isobar* cross sections increase in density, as wavefunction density gradients, a possible solution? to Hartle and Hawking's "wavefunction of the universe"?

There is the Schrodinger equation:

H(psi) = E(psi),

where H is the Hamiltonian operator, the sum of potential and kinetic energies, and "psi" is the wavefunction. E is the energy of the system. The square of the wavefunction, is the probability of the position and momentum for the system.

The Wheeler DeWitt equation is the Schrodinger equation applied to the whole universe. Since the total energy of the universe is postulated to be zero(even though the Hamiltonian for the universe isn't quite defined) the Wheeler DeWitt equation is:

H(psi) = 0

There is a complementary path integral approach for this equation. Stephen Hawking derived the wavefunction of the universe as a path integral, for a complex function of the classical configuration space:

psi(q) = integral exp(-S(g)/hbar) dg

The problem is that "dg" is not well defined either

exp is the base of the natural logarithm "e" raised to a power. The power in this case, is the quantity -S(g)/hbar, where S(g)
is the Einstein Hilbert action.

The Einstein Hilbert Action:

The Lagrangian, which is the difference of kinetic and potential
energies, has a formulation in general relativity:

Lagrangian = R vol

R is the Ricci scalar curvature of the metric g, derived by contracting the Ricci tensor and "vol" is the volume form associated to g. The Einstein Hilbert action then becomes:

S(g) = integral R vol

Spacelike hypersurfaces are endomorphically projected Compression waves. A self embedding of surface integrals. This gives continuously increasing density gradients, as matter-energy is quantum mechanically re-scaled. What appears as universal expansion with radius R, is actually matter-energy contraction with radius 1/R. Total spacetime is constant.

According to string theory, from the principle called "T-Duality", the physics for a circle of radius R is the same as the physics for a circle of radius 1/R. So if total spacetime is a constant, and matter-energy would be shrinking at a uniform accelerated rate, it would appear to the shrinking beings in the universe, that their universe's spacetime was expanding and matter energy is the constant.

Hawking's entropy equation:

Entropy = [Area of event horizon]*[Boltzmann's constant]*[speed of light^3]/4*[Planck's constant/2pi]*[Newton's universal gravitational constant]

S = [A*k*c^3]/[4*hbar*G]

Quantum gravity and thermodynamics are related.

The R - 1/R duality of string theory, gives two ways of looking at the world. Which way is correct? R with spacetime expansion? Or 1/R with matter-energy requantization?

Both could be correct, depending on the perspective of the observer.
 
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Quantum Quack,

I tend to agree with you MacM -1+1=0. I have been conceptually trying to understand hoiw nothing developed tha potential to become something. And as yet all I have come up with is that Nothing divided into two and reacted to itself thus energy was created...how? I can't say.

ANS:Great one ali. :D

In a way it is not unlike the way our imagination works in that we can see nothing and make something of it. Like a blank piece of paper we doodle on.

The thing that is most puzzling is the absoluteness of nothing "before" creation.


ANS:To me "Nothingness" must be defined as absence of time-space. The formation of virtual particles from the quantum foam would not fit that definition. It would apear more to be a transformation of form. "Something" from "Something" we can't measure or sense vs Creation ex nihilo.
 
James R.,

First congratulations on keeping your response on topic. I felt my response was a bit pointed (I made it so deliberately) since you had altered my post and then proceeded to argue your version of my post. I felt that was inappropriate.



ANS: It would be nice if you used the form presented and not invent your own. 1 is a number not a thing. It is only a one and "n" is a variety of things +/- forms.

That's what I asked you before, but you dodged the question. What is "n", exactly? In algebra, n is a number. In your statement it seems to be some kind of mystical thing which can have any properties you feel are convenient at the time. That's why, to put it bluntly, your statement is unscientific and practically useless.



ANS:If I failed to answer one of your questions or anwered unsatisfactorily, it wasn't a dodge of the question. Perhaps I should change (refine) my expression one more time.

N---------->(+s)+(-s). Where "N" is "Nothingness" and "s" represents +/- "Somethings" as opposites. Would that be an improvement in my worthless concept? :D.


"N" is "Nothingness" and the expression does indeed has signifigance apparently beyond your grasp.

Apparently so. But if you can't explain your own statement, I doubt anybody else will be able to either.



ANS:Actually some of the feed back has been very useful. If you will recall I started with the simple 0---------->(+1)+(-1) approach and "0" was raised as being numerical and not a representation of "Nothingness". So forthwidth I will replace "n" with "s".

As just explained by the formula they are a bifurcated form of "Nothing" which doesn't violate conservation.

Bifurcated into what? (This is the third time I've asked.)


ANS:Into anything in existance. i.e. While there will be some ultimate basic building block of everything, we do not yet have that answer but are getting close. But one can take whatever exists and working backwards it all represents different compilations of the same stuff. One paper I have read recently from Cornell holds everything is composed of light.

Interestingly that paper very closely matches the general view I have held but is more specific. In it light is basic energy in a 2D form and is without time and space. That is from its view it exists everywhere simultaneously and isn't propagating.

We see it as propagating in our 3-4 dimensional universe. When light is compressed (they called it bound energy or knoted - I hve referred to it as a standing wave) it forms mass and mass has the properties of motion in 3D space.

According to the paper the collapse of space (flowing through matter) creates time and an entropy (energy deficit) in the process is the driving energy of gravity. [Interestingly it sounds simular to Henry Linders flowing space in someways].

I know this brief outline doesn't make sense. If you are interested I will post the link under a new topic.

But as applies here. What ever that most basic form of existance is then it would have a (-s) partner created and stored in a -universe or another dimension.
 
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JP,

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ANS: Let have a look at your above statement.

For your God to have created everything he must also have created time-space otherwise he would not be the original creator.
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Take the CTMU approach: That the Universe created itself. Did you do that research on Pantheism yet? If not, then for now you can simply equate Universe = God. I will try to simplify this as much as possible.


ANS: If you want to reduce the term God to an unknown process or cause of existance via creation ex nihilo and stop there we can agree. However, the conventional use of the term implies a belief in a "Supreme, omnipotent, all knowing intelligent being that created everything with a plan and that plan seems fraught with nonsense and is no plan and is replete with myopic torts.

I think to use the term God in this case confuses rather than clarifies for that reason. If you are simply referring to God as my mathematical expression of creation then we have no arguement.




quote:
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Therefore he must create himself ex nihilo
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Self-Configuring Self-Processing Language = Universe = God

ANS: Same respoinse as above.



quote:
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in absence of time-space before he could then create time-space.
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Lets make this as easy as possible: Before space-time, there was no before, during, or after. No time, no logical sequence, no order of events.


ANS:I would agree before time-space is a non-sequiter. At the same time it would appear that one must describe the condition of "Nothingness" or "Non-Existance".

In that sense the use of "Before" does not conotate to a progression but static condition. It relates to the "Non-Existance" and not some "time-before Time" as you apparently seem to want to interprete it.




quote:
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Everything that exists must have come from creation ex nihilo, including your God.
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You are assuming that God is separate from his creations. How would pantheism hold up here? Perhaps the entire act of creation *is* God, rather than the act of creation being directed by a God or not by a God?


ANS:Again, no arguement with this except as posted above, it leads to confusion since most would assume you mean God in the Biblical sense and that simply isn't indicated or supported.



quote:
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Creation ex nihilo can be expressed as: N------>(+n)+(-n) as a mathematcial principle which doesn't viloate conservation. It requires no God.
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Did you just make that up? In my readings I have never come across a mathematical principle that can be equated to creation without a God. Also, what conservation are you talking about? Conservation of energy, momentum, information, national parks?

ANS:As a matter of a fact "Yes". But I would hope that doesn't in of itself make it worthless as James likes to suggest. :D.

If you are interested you can learn more by visiting my site. Click on my profile for directions to the url.


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Your God is deemed a useless complication and would be ruled out by O'cams Razor.
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Occam's Razor says, "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"

Okay, how about this: God created the Universe is ruled out because it is not necessary, so you can also logically say that the Universe created itself, which *is* the God (remember, Universe = God). ;-) Hey, Occam's Razor is useful after all!

ANS:There is no proof that the universe functions under "Occam's Razor" but it is a logical conslusion. As above integrating God into the process as being the Creation ex nihilo and stopping there with no further definiton eliminates the duplicity of creation ex nihilo and objections via OR but it still leaves my personal objection to doing so due to the confusion it creates for those wanting to read more into the God origin of the universe.



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Now before you launch YOUR "emotionally driven statements" please post specific, verifiable, or at least quantifiable evidence to support the inclusion of your God in the overall greater understanding about our origins.
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Why should anyone be held to such a standard that you yourself can not comply with?

ANS:Not so fast. You can't wiggle out of your own assertion. I have only reversed your unjustified qualification of others views as being "emotionally driven statements". It therefore remains your obligation to show that such alternate views to your own are emotional rather than logical. You have made a simple assertion without supporting evidence.
 
James R.,

Actually, it is no improvement at all on the God concept, at least in terms of science. Science demands detectability, measurability etc.

ANS: I would like to add one further comment to your assertion above.

There are numerous things in science and physics which have not been proven and may not be proveable. Especially in todays array of theories which are being circulated. Yet they are treated as science and serious issues of study and research.

My formalisim of Creation ex nihilo may not have testing support and may never have any proof. But it certainly seems a better view scientifically than a view which merely adds a supurflous level of creation ex nihilo plus adds wholly unsupported and totally illogical "Intelligent Design" to the mix along with all the self satisfying conclusion as to mans position in creation as a whole being superior and the purpose of the creation of the universe.
 
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