Logical Proof of Intelligent Design

JP,

Since all efforts to show that the concept of God is contradictory have failed heretofore

Perhaps you would like to prove this statement before you say much more!

Lets start with this.

"If God was (is) the creator of everything, then God had to create himself. You now have existance via creation ex nihilo".

Creation ex nihilo can occur mathematically via N--->(+n)+(-n) and does not require God; hence O'coms Razor says God doesn't exist.
 
Lostinthought7,

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/...heUniverse.html

This is a wonderfully classic logical fallacy.

If you bake a cake are you then surprised at how the baking dish is so similar to the shape of the cake?

What the ID adherents are saying in these arguments is that the baking dish was designed to suit the shape of the cake. Whereas in reality the shape of the cake is a result of the dish.

Of course order will result when components are derived from others, they would not occur otherwise.

The argument for life is similar. The ID argument says that the Earth environment was designed to fit the needs of life. The reality seems to be that life evolved because of the environment. If the environment had been different then perhaps an entirely different type of life might have evolved.
 
Originally posted by J.P.
The universe is defined as the totality of all that exists.


Within the universe, cause precedes effect.

If cause, then effect:

If A then B

A

Therefore B


The purpose of "cause" is to create an effect.

Cause and effect are mutually dependent. If there is no effect, then there is no cause:

If not B then not A,

not B

therefore not A

The universe creates its own purpose. If it did not create its own purpose, it would be totally chaotic, or, it would be totally deterministic. We observe the universe as a system with consistent laws, therefore, it is not totally chaotic.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle explains that both the position and momentum of a particle, cannot be determined precisely, and this uncertainty is an intrinsic property of the universe, so the universe cannot be totally deterministic.

Therefore, the universe creates its own purpose.

Purpose implies intent, intent implies mind, mind implies intelligence.

If the universe is an effect, and the cause of the effect is within the universe, then the universe creates itself.


Therefore:

The universe is an intelligent mind.

:cool:

There are several fatal flaws in your argument:

[1] It's logically inconsistent to state that "the universe is defined as the totality of all that exists", and to state thereafter that "the universe creates its own purpose"! Because if the universe contains all that exists, it must also contains all purposes.
It is a clear mistake in logic to assign to such totality one single purpose. In short, if the universe is a totality, then it is a totality in all respects, not just few.

[2] "The universe is an intelligent mind"! This statement is both wrong and useless. It's wrong because it's simply a projection of man's inner image of the workings of the human nervous system on this totality of things called 'the universe'. It's also useless, because nothing can be gained in the theoretical or the practical sense by treating the universe as 'intelligent mind'.

[3] All that talk about 'cause and effect' is non-sequitur, and demolished completely by the illustrious David Hume long time ago. It just doesn't hold water.

[4] The 'Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle' has been used to deny causality not to support it. Its use in the above context is completely beside the point if not counter-productive.
 
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JP, I noticed in one of your posts ( can't remember which one) that you refer to two photons travelling in opposite directions and simultaneously having some relationship with each other therefore suggesting that this relationship is travelling at speeds faster than the speed "c".

You use this as an example of trancedence "beyond reality"

This I question. Trancedence. Why would instantaneous communications in a contiinuum be considered trancedent. ( if that's a word)

After all it is only our science that proves a limit to speed. THis doesn;t necessarilly mean that speed is limited it just means that we haven't proved otherwise.

The universe can only fuction with both the instantaneous and the time of speed.

Everything is in an instantaneous relationship with everything.

Speed is also part of the equation but at all times there is a continuum of interreactions.

Cause becomes effect and effect becomes cause.
Cause can be infinite with effect being finite. Cause can be finite and the effect being infinite. And infinite combinations of all of them.

If you can imagine a universe teaming with intelligent life. One could suggest that the universe (God) is intelligent from with in and not from without. I get the impression that we tend to think God is looking inwards at us when in fact he is looking outwards through us ( intelligent life etc)

We are like intelligent bacteria that provide the host ( Universe ) with intelligence.

I don't feel there is a need to prove the existance of God as the universes existance is self eveident.

Sorry about this poorly worded post, I think I drank too much last night. ( hic!!)
 
wesmorris,


Why do you place such value on an ultimately meaningless statement? I mean, that's a pretty big if you're building on.

Obviously, it creates a burr in your saddle, else, you would not be posting the derogatory commentary. Where is your logical refutation?


If it is possible for monkeys to spontaneously appear blah blah blah.

Non-sequitur.


I think that is exactly IM-possible from the definition of a POV for knowledge to be perfect as you describe.

It may be impossible for a human mind to perfectly model reality but all that needs to be proved, is that the limit is converging for the limit to exist, or diverging for the impossibility.


Following your precedent I'll just rush to the conclusion: Therefore god doesn't exist.

Why are you making what appear to be emotionally driven statements against the logical possibility for God to exist? Is the "God concept" an anathema to "Wes"?


Hmm. I had the thought all of the sudden that this is kind of part of entropy really. Eh. It's just the closed system part I guess. Maybe not? Thoughts? I mean entropy does cover something about information loss. Meh. Thoughts?

Isn't that a nice little problem that seems skirted here?

According to Stephen Hawking, in the book "The Universe in a Nutshell", the surface area of the horizon surrounding a black hole, measures its entropy, where entropy is defined as a measure of the number of internal states that the black hole can be in without looking different to an outside observer, who can only measure mass, rotation and charge. This leads to another theory which states that the maximum entropy of any closed region of space can never exceed one quarter of the area of the circumscribing surface, with the entropy being the measure of the total information contained by the system. The information associated with all phenomena in the three dimensional world, can be stored on its two dimensional boundary, like a holographic image.

Since entropy can also be defined as the number of states within a region of space, and the entropy of the universe must always increase, the next logical step is to realize that the spacetime density, i.e. the information encoded within a circumscribed region of space, must be increasing in the thermodynamic direction of time. Information is not lost.
 
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AAF / Quantum Quack,



There are several fatal flaws in your argument:

Thanks for the help.


[1] It's logically inconsistent to state that "the universe is defined as the totality of all that exists", and to state thereafter that "the universe creates its own purpose"! Because if the universe contains all that exists, it must also contains all purposes.
It is a clear mistake in logic to assign to such totality one single purpose. In short, if the universe is a totality, then it is a totality in all respects, not just few.

The general contains the specific, the abstract contains the concrete. An all inclusive "purpose" i.e. "to exist" must contain all of its distinctions, if something is distinct from another "something", it is a different type of existence, that is to say, it is stratified from a more general, or a more specific type of existence. Therefore logic demands that a composition of total existence have separate distinctions within itself, yet it is also an embodiment of itself. Existence is a paradox, albeit a self resolving one.


[2] "The universe is an intelligent mind"! This statement is both wrong and useless. It's wrong because it's simply a projection of man's inner image of the workings of the human nervous system on this totality of things called 'the universe'. It's also useless, because nothing can be gained in the theoretical or the practical sense by treating the universe as 'intelligent mind'.

If the universe is closed, the "information" or entangled quantum states cannot leak out of the closed system. So the density of entangled quantum states, continually increases, as the entropy must always increase. While to us, it is interpreted as entropy or lost information, it is actually recombined information, to the universe.

Spacetime Memory = Compression Waves = Interpretation of Increased Entropy.


If our universe is a self projecting computer simulation within a simulation within... within a simulation, which is a process, it would need to be an accelerated process.

locally, as the distance between two objects approaches zero, and velocity is low, space-time is a Euclidean geometry.

As the distance between two objects increases, space-time is a "non-Euclidean" geometry.

This non-Euclidean geometry uses a Euclidean tangent vector space to approximate its curvature properties. "tangent vectors".

Is it possible to derive Einstein's field equation strictly in terms of quantum mechanical operators? using n-dimensional cross sections of cotangent vector spaces? Near a massive object M, the *isobar* cross sections increase in density, as wavefunction density gradients, a possible solution? to Hartle and Hawking's "wavefunction of the universe"?

There is the Schrodinger equation:

H(psi) = E(psi),

where H is the Hamiltonian operator, the sum of potential and kinetic energies, and "psi" is the wavefunction. E is the energy of the system. The square of the wavefunction, is the probability of the position and momentum for the system.

The Wheeler DeWitt equation is the Schrodinger equation applied to the whole universe. Since the total energy of the universe is postulated to be zero(even though the Hamiltonian for the universe isn't quite defined) the Wheeler DeWitt equation is:

H(psi) = 0

There is a complementary path integral approach for this equation. Stephen Hawking derived the wavefunction of the universe as a path integral, for a complex function of the classical configuration space:

psi(q) = integral exp(-S(g)/hbar) dg

The problem is that "dg" is not well defined either

exp is the base of the natural logarithm "e" raised to a power. The power in this case, is the quantity -S(g)/hbar, where S(g)
is the Einstein Hilbert action.

The Einstein Hilbert Action:

The Lagrangian, which is the difference of kinetic and potential
energies, has a formulation in general relativity:

Lagrangian = R vol

R is the Ricci scalar curvature of the metric g, derived by contracting the Ricci tensor and "vol" is the volume form associated to g. The Einstein Hilbert action then becomes:

S(g) = integral R vol

Spacelike hypersurfaces are endomorphically projected Compression waves. A self embedding of surface integrals. This gives continuously increasing density gradients, as matter-energy is quantum mechanically re-scaled. What appears as universal expansion with radius R, is actually matter-energy contraction with radius 1/R. Total spacetime is constant.


According to string theory, from the principle called "T-Duality", the physics for a circle of radius R is the same as the physics for a circle of radius 1/R. So if total spacetime is a constant, and matter-energy would be shrinking at a uniform accelerated rate, it would appear to the shrinking beings in the universe, that their universe's spacetime was expanding and matter energy is the constant.

Hawking's entropy equation:

Entropy = [Area of event horizon]*[Boltzmann's constant]*[speed of light^3]/4*[Planck's constant/2pi]*[Newton's universal gravitational constant]

S = [A*k*c^3]/[4*hbar*G]

Quantum gravity and thermodynamics are related.

The R - 1/R duality of string theory, gives two ways of looking at the world. Which way is correct? R with spacetime expansion? Or 1/R with matter-energy requantization?

Both could be correct, depending on the perspective of the observer.


[3] All that talk about 'cause and effect' is non-sequitur, and demolished completely by the illustrious David Hume long time ago. It just doesn't hold water.

You could have a good point here AAF. The "cause & effect" argument is an oversimplification, of course ;)


[4] The 'Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle' has been used to deny causality not to support it. Its use in the above context is completely beside the point if not counter-productive.

Heisenberg uncertainty agrees with free will for the universal mind.


JP, I noticed in one of your posts ( can't remember which one) that you refer to two photons travelling in opposite directions and simultaneously having some relationship with each other therefore suggesting that this relationship is travelling at speeds faster than the speed "c".

On one level of stratification, the two photons are separate. On another level, of stratification, the photons have zero separation.

Instantaneous communication between two objects, separated by a distance interval, is equivalent to zero separation[zero boundary] between the two objects.

According to the book "Gravitation", chapter 15, geometry of spacetime gives instructions to matter telling matter to follow the straightest path, which is a geodesic. Matter in turn, tells spacetime geometry how to curve in such a way, as to guarantee the conservation of momentum and energy. The Einstein tensor[geometric feature-description] is also conserved in this relationship between matter and the spacetime geometry. Eli Cartan's "boundary of a boundary equals zero."

Einstein's equation basically says

Einstein Tensor [G] = Stress-Energy Tensor [T]

[spacetime geometry] determines [matter-energy's path] = geodesic.

[Matter-energy] determines [spacetime geometry] = non-Euclidean geometry.

.
Conservation of momentum energy is explained as an automatic consequence of the zero boundary of a boundary. Where conservation of energy-momentum means no creation or destruction of energy momentum in a 4D region of spacetime [4D cube] The integral of "creation events" i.e. the integral of
d*T for energy momentum, over the 4D region is required to be zero, and gives the conservation of momentum energy. The mathematical machinery for identically meeting the conservation laws is the boundary of a boundary equals zero.

[spacetime tells mass]<===[geodesic path for particle]===>[mass tells spacetime]

An object following a geodesic has no unbalanced forces acting on it. Its energy-momentum is a constant. In order for the object to deviate from the geodesic, it must be accelerated. Energy must be expended, for example, its rocket boosters could fire, or an outside force like a meteor impact .


Is mass "m", a form of condensed space-time?

The mass-energy equivalence is given by the equation

E = m*c^2

Really, the equation is:

E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4

For a photon, the rest mass is zero, the equation reduces to:

E^2 = p^2 c^2

Since p is the momentum of a photon of light, the equation becomes:

E/p = c

Light is also a wave with a frequency (f) of oscillation and its energy is also given by the equation:

E = h*f = p*c

wavelength, Lambda = c/f

E/f = h = p*Lamda

Waves are ripples in a basic medium. Einstein explains that the ether is unecessary as a medium, so the ripples are vibrations of spacetime itself, if, mass-energy is a form of condensed space-time.

As the ripples intersect with each other, it becomes a domino effect with the ripples continually increasing in density. Very similar to taking a penny and doubling it as an iterative sequence.

2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, ... 2^n

Since the ripples are increasing in density they are "compressed" . As spacetime becomes compressed, matter is re-configured as a balancing effect, so the force of gravity and accelerations are perceived as they presently are.

[<->[<->[<-><->]<->]<->]

The increasing spacetime density must be background independent.

Actually, spacetime does not really need to be "sliced up" in that it can proceed in discrete steps, yet, still be continuous.

[density 1]--->[density 2]--->[density 3]---> ... --->[density n]

h represents Planck's constant

G is Newton's universal gravitational constant.

c is the speed of light in vacuum.

S = distance scale

T = time scale.

p is momentum

Planck length = sqrt[hG/c^3] = constant ratio

Planck time = sqrt[hG/c^5] = constant ratio

[Planck length]/[Planck time] = c = [S/T]_n = [S/T]_n+k

Discrete quanta = hf

Continuous wavelength = h/p

Since we are continuing to discover how symmetry is violated in the universe, it should be possible to devise an experiment to determine how the spacetime expansion vs. matter contraction symmetry, is violated. Then it should be possible to prove, or disprove Eddington's idea.

A quote from the book "The Expanding Universe" by Sir Arthur Eddington:

quote:



All change is relative. The universe is expanding relatively to our common standards; our common standards are shrinking relatively to the size of the universe. The theory of the "expanding universe" might also be called the theory of the "shrinking atom" .


Quantum mechanics leads us to the realization that all matter-energy can be explained in terms of "waves". In a confined region(i.e. a closed universe or a black hole) the waves exists as STANDING WAVES In a closed system, the entropy never decreases.

The analogy with black holes is an interesting one but if there is nothing outside the universe, then it cannot be radiating energy outside itself as black holes are explained to be. So the amount of information i.e. "quantum states" in the universe is increasing. We see it as entropy, but to an information processor with huge computational capabilities, it is compressible information.

Quantum field theory calculations where imaginary time is periodic, with period 1/T are equivalent to statistical mechanics calculations where the temperature is T. The periodic waveforms that are opposed yet "in phase" would be at standing wave resonance, giving the action.

Periodicity is a symmetry. Rotate into the complex plane and we have real numbers on the horizonal axis and imaginary numbers on the vertical axis. So a periodic function could exist with periodicity along both the imaginary AND the real axis. Such functions would have amazing symmetries. Functions that remain unchanged, when the complex variable "z" is changed.

f(z)---->f(az+b/cz+d)

Where the elements a,b,c,d, are arranged as a matrix, forming an
algebraic group. An infinite number of possible variations that
commute with each other as the function f, is invariant under group transformations. These functions are known as "automorphic forms".

Topologically speaking, the wormhole transformations must be
invariant with regards to time travel. In other words, by traveling
backwards in time, we "complete" the future, and no paradoxes are created.

So when spacetime tears and a wormhole is created, it must obey certain transformative rules, which probably appear to be
discontinuities from a "3-D" perspective, but really, these
transformations are continuous!

So the number of holes[genus] on the surface of space, determine whether there exist an infinite, or finite, number of solutions to the universal equations?

Multiverse, or one Universe?

Strong Anthropic Principle or Weak Anthropic Principle?

The information density of space increases. This is a relation and its inverse.

For example, unity is a constant, representable by:

[1 = c ] = [1/2 + 1/2] = [1/4 + 3/4] = [1/5 + 4/5] = [1/6 + 5/6]

The left fraction represents [energy/momentum] and the right fraction represents compressed [space/time] density, where space means "distance interval" , a relative measurement.

[E/p]<--->[S/T]

[1/R]<--->[R]

The physics for a circle of radius R, is the same for a circle of radius 1/R

E/p = S/T = c

[Space/time] and [energy/momentum] are two different forms of the same invariant quantity [c].

[E/p]_n = [E/p]_n+1 = [S/T]_n = [S/T]_n+1

Yes, c+c = c

[c + c]/[1 + c^2/c^2] = c

So E/p + S/t = 2c/2 = c

S/T = E/p = S/T + E/p = c

We live in a nonlinear universe. Einstein's equations don't lie

c+c = c

aleph_0 + aleph_0 = aleph_0

0 + 0 = 0

Gravity exists because the information density of space-time is increasing. This creates a "pressure force" where processed space, compresses mass-energy, and mass-energy reacts by compressing space. The process is "time", which becomes dilated due to the increased information density of massive objects.

mass energy = information

space = self similar relation

time = process = change

So space compresses matter-energy and matter-energy gives an equal and opposite reaction.

Space-time tells matter how to move and matter tells space-time how to curve.

[mass tells spacetime ]<===[geodesic]===>[ space-time tells mass]


I don't feel there is a need to prove the existance of God as the universes existance is self eveident.


Space and time have a beginning.

The best explanation for that beginning is self causation best
explained CM Langan's Cognitive Theoretic Model of the Universe:

http://www.iscid.org/papers/Langan_CTMU_092902.pdf
 
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Existence is a definition, a predication, which is why Kant so vehemently denied that existence is a predicate, but alas, existence is a definitive constraint as is all definitions. To exist means "to be". So infinite paradox becomes infinite freedom from constraint, and reality itself is an infinitesimal difference, from perfect equilibrium.


The "Ein Sof" is an infinity that cannot be comprehended. For every set A there is a choice function, f, such that for any non-empty sub set B of A, f(B) is a member of B, and so we see that there may be an infinite number of sets B within A, and as such the Banach-Tarski paradox is created. A single sphere is decomposed and re-assembled into two spheres, each with the same radius as the original sphere.

So we see that:

[paradox] = not-[paradox]

is a paradox of course!

therefore:

paradox = paradox

is absolutely true.



Alpha = Omega

It is the categorical formulation of the simultaneous, situational, instantiated contradiction, where deductive invalidity is the product of the utmost categorical truth of the assumption that if the antecedent of a true conditional is false, then the consequent of the conditional is true or false indifferently, and of the categorical falsehood of the conclusion consequently predicates that if it be not the case that the consequent of a true conditional is true or false indifferently, then, it is not the case that the antecedent of the conditional is false. To pronounce the consequent of a true conditional as being true or false indifferently is tantamount to saying modally that where the antecedent of a true conditional is notoriously false, then the consequent can, or could be, or is possibly true or false. But it may be worthwhile to see that the definitive, simultaneous equality of both true, and false, can be formulated without explicitly including modal terms, which become the predicating operators, which, for the sake of showing that the consequent paradoxical conundrum is not straightforwardly resolvable by appealing to concrete philosophical scruples concerning the intensionality of predicated modal contexts.

The categorical representation of the propositional anti-logic, in which deductive invalidity depends on the modality of the truth conditionals concerning the prerequisite of the contingent assumption and consequent conclusion. The totally relevant content of the assumption and conclusion, definitely contains no modal terms. But, the modality attaches to the fact that the conditional assumption is quite possibly true, while the conditional conclusion is necessarily false.

Which leads us to an argumentational representation of a completely non-bogus modal formulation of the "paradox". Deductive invalidity is most excellently predicated on the categorical truth of the modal-term-laden assumption and the definitive categorical falsehood of the modal-term-laden conclusion. Hence, the assumption is such, that if the antecedent of a contingently true conditional is false, then, the consequent of the conclusion can be true is itself quite simply, ...true. Therefore, the conclusion that if it is not the case that the consequent of a contingently true conditional can be true, then it is not the case that the antecedent of the true conditional is false, is itself quite simply, false.

Meta-philosophical scruples notwithstanding, existence is, a paradox, albeit a dynamic resolute relation.


THE TRUTH: God creates a logical Universe.
Imagine a Universe in which there is no logic. There would be no meaningful numbers, no addition, subtraction, or counting of any kind. There would be no laws, no physics, no predictability, no cause and effect. Such a Universe would be utterly and totally devoid of meaning. Thus, for any Universe in which anything meaningful can happen, logic is a most fundamental necessity.
 
OK so we accept that what you propose is correct.

What does that mean to us?

Does his answers give us anything of value? Other than the woopee effect?

What does his TOE do for us and our future?
How can it be applied to our benefit?

I mean to ask you JP to look beyond the theory and apply it.
THE TRUTH: God creates a logical Universe.

God didn't create a universe he just created himself.

Again God is not removed from the universe he is the universe.
He couldn't have created the universe as separate to himself.

How did God create himself, he would probably look at you and say "I dunno!" " I just woke up one day and here I was.":D
 
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JP,

quote:
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Following your precedent I'll just rush to the conclusion: Therefore god doesn't exist.
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Why are you making what appear to be emotionally driven statements against the logical possibility for God to exist? Is the "God concept" an anathema to "Wes"?



ANS:Wes's comments are not "emotionally driven statements".

They are the most rational views as opposed to "emotionally driven statements" pushing a view that God is at the root of existance for which there simply is not one shred of evidence and no good explanation for how such could be, nor any advantage what-so-ever for that being the case.

The concept of God adds an middle man to the unknown process with no gain in knowledge but infact adds even more complictions for which there is no answer.


quote:
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Hmm. I had the thought all of the sudden that this is kind of part of entropy really. Eh. It's just the closed system part I guess. Maybe not? Thoughts? I mean entropy does cover something about information loss. Meh. Thoughts?

Isn't that a nice little problem that seems skirted here?
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Since entropy can also be defined as the number of states within a region of space, and the entropy of the universe must always increase, the next logical step is to realize that the spacetime density, i.e. the information encoded within a circumscribed region of space, must be increasing in the thermodynamic direction of time. Information is not lost.



ANS:, and the entropy of the universe must always increase,. This is an assumption based on less than complete testing and certainly is not proven. The very expansion of the universe suggest entrophy could be decreasing as it may be evidence of an on going creation.

Gee, we are getting to see God at work.
 
JP,

THE TRUTH: God creates a logical Universe.
Imagine a Universe in which there is no logic. There would be no meaningful numbers, no addition, subtraction, or counting of any kind. There would be no laws, no physics, no predictability, no cause and effect. Such a Universe would be utterly and totally devoid of meaning. Thus, for any Universe in which anything meaningful can happen, logic is a most fundamental necessity.


ANS: Let have a look at your above statement.

For your God to have created everything he must also have created time-space otherwise he would not be the original creator.

Therefore he must create himself ex nihilo in absence of time-space before he could then create time-space. Everything that exists must have come from creation ex nihilo, including your God.

Creation ex nihilo can be expressed as: N------>(+n)+(-n) as a mathematcial principle which doesn't viloate conservation. It requires no God.

Your God is deemed a useless complication and would be ruled out by O'cams Razor.


Now before you launch YOUR "emotionally driven statements" please post specific, verifiable, or at least quantifiable evidence to support the inclusion of your God in the overall greater understanding about our origins.

What does accepting your God contribute? Nothing. It not only clouds the issue but distorts the conslusions for the evidence and understandings that we have achieved thus far.

Does this prove you are wrong? Of course not. Does it show that in all likelyhood you are wrong. You bet your bippy.
 
Originally posted by J.P.
Heisenberg uncertainty agrees with free will for the universal mind.
Random action is not the same as free will. What you're implying is that the action is not truly random but is determined by God's will but there is nothing to support this assertion. In fact, seeing as that quantum uncertainty is probabilistically predictable on gross levels God's will would likewise be probabilistic.

Instantaneous communication between two objects, separated by a distance interval, is equivalent to zero separation[zero boundary] between the two objects.
Information cannot be passed at faster than light speeds using quantum entanglement. Thus it is not the same as zero separation in a classical context; you're still limited to communication at the speed of light.

As the ripples intersect with each other, it becomes a domino effect with the ripples continually increasing in density. Very similar to taking a penny and doubling it as an iterative sequence.
You're neglecting the fact that there is destructive as well as constructive interference; intersecting waves sometimes complement and sometimes cancel. You also have no additional sources of energy; the total energy in a closed universe is constant, there cannot be a constant increase of the total, thus no compression.

~Raithere
 
Originally posted by J.P.
AAF / Quantum Quack,

Thanks for the help.

The general contains the specific, the abstract contains the concrete. An all inclusive "purpose" i.e. "to exist" must contain all of its distinctions, if something is distinct from another "something", it is a different type of existence, that is to say, it is stratified from a more general, or a more specific type of existence. Therefore logic demands that a composition of total existence have separate distinctions within itself, yet it is also an embodiment ..................................................................................

:)

GENERAL REMARKS:

[1] You wrote: "........ the abstract contains the concrete.....".

It's the exact opposite. The concrete contains the abstract, not the other way around. That is because concrete things can never be absolutely exhausted, and their characteristics are potentially infinine. Moreover, the abstract is always obtained from the concrete through induction which by its own nature has potentially infinite outcome.

[2] ".........Existence is a paradox, albeit a self resolving one...".

I see no paradox related to Existence, and certainly there is no paradox related to Absolute Existence as long as it is treated as something in Eternity not as something run by Eternity.

[3] ".....If the universe is closed, the "information" or entangled quantum states cannot leak out of the closed system.........".

Closed or not, 'information' can never leak out of the universe, because there is nothing outside the universe to leak into.

[4] ".................................................
Spacetime Memory = Compression Waves = Interpretation of Increased Entropy.............Einstein's equation basically says

Einstein Tensor [G] = Stress-Energy Tensor [T]
..........................................".

Look! You have to make a choice here, either physics or metaphysics, but not both. Because each one has its own rules and grandmasters. They don't mix. So if you choose physics stick to its rule of thumb: {Don't touch the absolute or mess with infinity}. Furthermore, physics is highly mobile and changing all the time. You can't place eternal stuff like existence and ultimate goals and purposes on such shifting dunes called physics. Brielfly, if you love eternal principles and the realm where infinity rules and the abstract is king, then choose metaphysics, my friend.

Have a nice day.

:D
 
AAF,

Closed or not, 'information' can never leak out of the universe, because there is nothing outside the universe to leak into.

I take a slight exception to this portion of your responses above.

The exception is this. "It depends on you definition of the Universe and if you allow for the theoretical concepts of Multiverse".

Under certain definitions "Virtual Particles" come INTO existance ex nihilo. Which would mean they came from beyond our existance. In which case we must acknowledge that there is something beyond our universe.
 
J.P.:

You should read Tipler's <i>The physics of immortality</i>. It contains many of the same (flawed) kinds of arguments you've posted here, but with a somewhat better grounding in general relativity.
 
Originally posted by MacM
AAF,



I take a slight exception to this portion of your responses above.

The exception is this. "It depends on you definition of the Universe and if you allow for the theoretical concepts of Multiverse".

Under certain definitions "Virtual Particles" come INTO existance ex nihilo. Which would mean they came from beyond our existance. In which case we must acknowledge that there is something beyond our universe.

:cool:

If the concept of multi-universe is defined in terms of totally or partially independent entities each of which is called universe, then the metaphysical concept of the universe as a whole totality is still valid, and nothing can exist outside that totality.

As for the hypothesis of "........ "Virtual Particles" THAT come INTO existance ex nihilo.....", has been proposed to explain away certain anomalies within the context of the physical universe. Outside the physical universe, their coming or not "INTO existance ex nihilo" makes no difference at all concerning the ontological status of NOTHING and it is equal to nil.
 
Re: haha

Originally posted by JesusRocksMySocks
Genisis 1:1

"in the begining, God created the Heavens and the earth..."

thus is my belief..thatxs for listening
so who created God??
(hint p****e);)
 
/Obviously, it creates a burr in your saddle, else, you would not be posting the derogatory commentary. Where is your logical refutation?

You said: "1.] If it is possible for a mind to perfectly understand[model] every aspect and detail of reality, then the mind that perfectly models reality is a super-intelligence, for all intents and purposes, the super-intelligence is God."

Which I called meaningless. Hmm.. let me see if I can recall why...

My proof is long and windbaggish and who knows, maybe mistaken. I'll give you a synopsis.

If you increase a POV to the point at which is contains every single facet of the universe in consciousness simultaneously, the meaning of "mind" evaporates. It is no longer a POV, as it would necessarily have to encompasses and permeate all others.

I think that fundamentally the only reasonable position regarding epistemology is agnosticism. There is a long winded explanation as to why, but I summarize that any other argument is in essence "argument from authority". I argued it a few different places. It's been a while but I'll await your response before bothering to look it up.

/Non-sequitur.

You said "If it is possible for a mind to perfectly understand[model] every aspect and detail of reality"

To which I replied: "If it is possible for monkeys to spontaneously appear blah blah blah."

Which is an attempt to illustrate an equivalently meaningless 'if', by the logic I present above that mind is a meaningless term in your application, as its definition would change fundamentally. Ahh, definitions. What a game we can play there eh?

So you have constructed an if to nowhere, much as I did with the monkey thing.

/It may be impossible for a human mind to perfectly model reality but all that needs to be proved, is that the limit is converging for the limit to exist, or diverging for the impossibility.

Non sequiter, as you use mind in an illogical context.

/Why are you making what appear to be emotionally driven statements against the logical possibility for God to exist?

My statements are driven by my conviction in my logic. What about yours? Surely you can't claim this untrue when you make statements like "Chris Langan has done[and is doing] his homework." Sounds like you're expressing devotion of sorts. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

/Is the "God concept" an anathema to "Wes"?

A little I guess. It's more that I'm annoyed by argument from authority. There is no such thing except in the minds of varying degrees of sociopaths IMO.

/According to Stephen Hawking, in the book "The Universe in a Nutshell", the surface area of the horizon surrounding a black hole, measures its entropy, where entropy is defined as a measure of the number of internal states that the black hole can be in without looking different to an outside observer, who can only measure mass, rotation and charge.

I knew about the first part but "defined as a measure of the number of internal states that the black hole can be in without looking different to an outside observer, who can only measure mass, rotation and charge". That's new to me. "states"? What kind of "states"? I suppose I need to read that book. Hmm. Hey that is a good idea for an office christmas present!
 
I know this may pose a huge challenge of logic and deductive reasoning but there is the idea that before the universe existed there was nothing, absolutely nothing.

Some how this nothingness became something and that's big question How?
I hear talk about virtual particles coming into existance and then dissapearing. I hear all sorts of speculation as to where they come from.

The truth could very well be that they come form nothing and nowhere, the only reason we argue against this is that we simply can't comprehend the logic of something from nothing.

Nothing is also part of the totallity of this universe and spontaneous creation of matter continues today.(postulation)

If you can work the logic of this question you will know how God or the universe created it self.
 
Originally posted by Quantum Quack
I know this may pose a huge challenge of logic and deductive reasoning but there is the idea that before the universe existed there was nothing, absolutely nothing.

I think there are likely a multitude of theories as to what did or didn't exist before the universe. One of them I read was "quantum foam". I'll leave it to someone more qualified to explain what that might be. :)
 
Quantum Quack,

Nothing is also part of the totallity of this universe and spontaneous creation of matter continues today.(postulation)

If you can work the logic of this question you will know how God or the universe created it self.


ANS:Where "N" is "Nothingness" and "n" is a variable "Somethingness", I prefer the view of creation ex nihilo via N------->(+n)+(-n).

Mathematically "Nothingness" can be bifurcated into a wide variety of +/- "Somethings" pairs or opposites and not violate conservation.

That view does not require a God and the inclusion of a God adds nothing to the understanding of creation since God must have created himself in absence of time-space in the first instance, if he is to be the creator of everything.

Hence God is supurflous or the formula describes God. Take your pick.
 
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