Logical Proof of Intelligent Design

the problem is with the concept god itself unless you are very very carefull with your defintion, which of course, means you're primping the word to meet your need rather than describing something about a system.

If I say "god is he who created and controlls all that is".. how can I logically validate the statement "god exists"? I mean, I can only do so in terms logic, which is part of the creation. So the only way to verify the creator is by pointing to part of the creation?

From this, I infer that:

You cannot prove intelligent design, you cannot prove god. You cannot disprove intelligent design, you cannot disprove god.

You cannot rationally debate the source or intent external to a closed system while you're locked inside the system.

Hmm. I had the thought all of the sudden that this is kind of part of entropy really. Eh. It's just the closed system part I guess. Maybe not? Thoughts? I mean entropy does cover something about information loss. Meh. Thoughts?

Isn't that a nice little problem that seems skirted here?
 
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Cris,


We know the universe exists.

We do not know that a god exists or could exist.

Suppose you can logically equate "Universe" with "God". Now, exchange the two in your former sentence: "We know the God exists", and vice-versa for the latter: "We do not know that a Universe exists or could exist."

Does it make sense to imply that the universe cannot be separate from God, and that God cannot be separate from His creations (i.e. the Universe) because there logically has to be a connective medium to exchange information (going all the back to Spinoza's meditations on the Mind-Body dualism introduced by Descartes.)


We do not know whether the universe had a beginning and hence cannot conclude that a creator is necessary.

If you argue that every effect has a cause then you must explain the cause of God in the same way you are arguing that the universe had a cause.

Perhaps every effect in reality (where reality is a characterization of bounded potential ... which amounts to the known universe) does indeed have a cause and effect. But what we do not know is what lies outside of Reality (and if we knew anything, it would suddenly be *in* reality ... we can never know anything outside reality), and the only rules (i.e. Logic, physics, mathematics, et cetera) that we do know are within reality, so God doesn't necessarily have to abide by the same logical rules that we do.


In this case we can prove that God does not exist – i.e. -

If we assume that G is caused by a super G (Gn-1) then Gn-1 must have been caused by a super super G (Gn-2). This in turn is caused by Gn-3. The series is infinite and requires Gn-infinity. Since infinity in this case has no beginning then there can never be a point where an original creator could exist and hence the whole series is impossible which in turn means that God cannot and therefore does not exist.

Once you accept that not everything must have a cause then that argument for a creator god becomes invalid.



Yes, I agree it is a bit paradoxal. However, the Cognitice theoretic model avoids this problem by introducing the concept that the universe created itself. This is accomplished through the syntax known as SCSPL (self-creating self-processing language), the real substance of the model.




I found the article total gibberish.

It can be reduced and summarized very simply as -

The universe exists therefore God exists.

The conclusion is a non sequitur.


For finding such a lengthy article gibberish, it is unique that you don't have more to say about it (we call this a gut-shot).

Lets try this - pick out what you think is gibberish, then post those parts of it here for me to look at, then offer your analysis and why you think it is gibberish:
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Langan_CTMU_092902.pdf

If you choose not to do this, then you yourself make up just as much gibberish as you claim the Cognitive Theoretic model does, but the model doesn't make these types of bold generalizations that are pointed in no particular direction (The model actually has many areas, and surely not all areas are "gibberish" with respect to the information contained within its particular context).

BTW, "non sequitur" is latin for "does not follow". Perhaps you are the one who is not correctly following the logical construction of the model? Just to point something out, I'll write an example of a "non sequitur" ... just for your (future) benefit.

1: If A then B

1a: If I am in Missouri, I am in America.

2: Not A

2a: I am not in Missouri.

3: Therefore, not B

3a: Therefore, I am not in America.

Hope this helps. I'm looking forward to reading an actual critique instead of an opinion summed up in a single word.
 
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"Hmm. I had the thought all of the sudden that this is kind of part of entropy really. Eh. It's just the closed system part I guess. Maybe not? Thoughts? I mean entropy does cover something about information loss. Meh. Thoughts?"

Sounds fine to me. go look up the information density of black holes, and the holographic universe theory. theres enough theories and guff in cosmology and physics to keep you going for years. no need to bang your head against the same wall, look into new stuff. I would say more, but I dont have my library here with me and my memory is poor and this isnt my field anyhow.
 
C = creation = that which is created

This is invalid, you have not established that the universe was created or that it must have been created.

If God creates time, God is independent of time. Time is created. If time extended infinitely into the past, it becomes a nonsensical paradox. If God is independent of time, there is no need for a previous creator of God, since time itself is just one aspect of creation. Creation means to "bring into existence".

God brings the universe[space-time], into existence.

Unity[monotheistic God] is a relation that contains an unlimited number of fractions[iterations].

G[C] = G

G[[C]] = G

G[[[C]]] = G

G[[[[[C_n...]]] = G


Matter is a form of energy; energy is primary to matter. Energy is defined[ in physics] as the ability to do work. Work is defined as [Force*Distance]. Force is an aspect of a distributed field; fields are primary to energy. Physical laws determine the dynamics of quantum fields; physical law is primary to fields. Physical laws must have a principle of organization. Either physical laws result from a unifying principle of organization, or, physical laws result from an infinite regress. Infinite regress is an absurdity, therefore, physical laws are the result of an organizing principle.

"Organizing principle" implies purpose, purpose implies mind.
Organizing principle is derivative of mind, therefore mind is primary to physical law. The mind that is primary to physical law is called "God"

Therefore God exists.
 
J.P.

If God creates time, God is independent of time. Time is created.
I understand the words but they portray no meaning. These are just baseless speculations and assertions.

If there was a point where time did not exist then explain how any action can occur without time being present? Saying that God can function outside of time has no meaning unless you can show how it might be possible. Even the creation of time involves time since there would be a before and an after effect – such a transition cannot occur without time being present – now that is a paradox.

It would appear that God can only operate with time being present otherwise no meaningful action could ever occur.

If time extended infinitely into the past, it becomes a nonsensical paradox.
Where is the paradox? Making a baseless assertion adds no value to the argument. This is simply the nature of infinity – something that has no boundaries.

If God is independent of time, there is no need for a previous creator of God, since time itself is just one aspect of creation.
But that does not answer the problem of where did God come from. If everything is derived from cause and effect something must have caused God – whether this is with time or not.

I hope you realize that if you claim that God was not caused then that destroys the argument that everything must have a cause and I can claim with equal validity that the universe had no cause and is infinite and hence does not require the existence of a creator. I.e. therefore there is no God, or at least God is unnecessary.

Creation means to "bring into existence".
Fine, but so what? You still haven’t shown that the universe was created or that it needed to be created. Can you demonstrate that the universe does not have infinite duration such that it would require a creator to start it?
 
Originally posted by J.P.
so God doesn't necessarily have to abide by the same logical rules that we do.
In which case it's senseless to assert logical propositions about god.

Yes, I agree it is a bit paradoxal. However, the Cognitice theoretic model avoids this problem by introducing the concept that the universe created itself. This is accomplished through the syntax known as SCSPL (self-creating self-processing language), the real substance of the model.
Self-causation is hardly an original concept. Nor does it resolve the paradox of infinite recursion, it brings us right back to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. God/Universe, by this definition, is incomplete and thus is not god or is infinitely recursive.

Unity[monotheistic God] is a relation that contains an unlimited number of fractions[iterations].
Only if god is holographic. Iterations and fractions are not generally equivalent.

physical law is primary to fields.
Unfounded. There is nothing to suggest that the principle (law) of interaction necessarily precedes or is causal to the existence of the primary forces.

Physical laws must have a principle of organization.
Unfounded. Nowhere has this been established as a logical necessity. In fact, observational evidence indicates that quantum events occur randomly/unpredictably. It is only in large numbers that the laws of physics take form.

Either physical laws result from a unifying principle of organization, or, physical laws result from an infinite regress.
False dilemma.

"Organizing principle" implies purpose, purpose implies mind.
Unfounded. Circular reasoning. This is, in fact, the conclusion you are attempting to prove. You cannot simply insert it, unfounded, as a premise.

Organizing principle is derivative of mind, therefore mind is primary to physical law.
Unfounded, circular. See above.

~Raithere
 
Cris / Raithere:


Poorly reasoned arguments
expressed horribly.

I particularly enjoyed the part where he essentially calls those who do not perceive his conjectural 'metareligion' stupid.

The sentient beings that are " 'not good enough' - intellectually speaking", are of the majority, not the minority? An exceptionally intelligent, rational thinking process[minority?] is valued, but it appears that some people? will also follow unethical leaders[majority?].



If God creates time, God is independent of time. Time is created.

I understand the words but they portray no meaning. These are just baseless speculations and assertions.

Actually, they are not baseless assertions. Since relativity also explains time as a dimension, a particle of matter moves through, [or is is processed by] time, approximately as fast as a photon of light moves through space.


m = m'/sqrt[1-(v/c)^2]

Because the processing rate of global spacetime is the invariant "c", the global "independent" level of spacetime is "timeless".

G[[[[[...C_n]]] = G



If there was a point wheretime did not exist then explain how any action can occur without time being present? Saying that God can function outside of time has no meaning unless you can show how it might be possible. Even the creation of time involves time since there would be a before and an after effect –
such a transition cannot occur without time being present – now that is a paradox.

The universe, along with the entire time line and the laws of physics, emerges from a background of unbound quantum potential [quantum field]. It is called the UBT by the Cognitive theoretic model. UBT is primary to spacetime; It is independent of the concepts of space and time.

What is quantum potential? Good question, I don't exactly know, but being primary to spacetime and the laws of physics, it is more than the emergent properties of the universe, hence it is more than the property known as "intelligence". UBT is for all intents and purposes, what we call "God". The unbound quantum potential, or the "UBT" was not an easy concept for me to fully grasp. Worse than infinity. ;)



It would appear that God can only operate with time being present otherwise no meaningful action could ever occur.


If God creates spacetime God is independent of spacetime, yet, God's creation is quantifiable through the "logos".

Truth is stranger than fiction.



Where is the paradox? Making a baseless assertion adds no value to the argument. This is simply the nature of infinity
– something that has no boundaries.

The universe can be finite yet not have a boundary. Since theories need to have finite sensible answers in their framework, the infinities and paradoxes must be eliminated. For example, what good does it do to say a quantity is infinite? What if we are trying to compute certain properties of existence?

infinity + infinity = ???

infinity*infinity = ???

infinity/infinity = ???



But that does not answer the problem of where did God come from. If everything is derived from cause and effect something must have caused God – whether this is with time or not.


1 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 +...+ 1/2^n

1 = convergent series

If the limit is converging, finite sensible answers can be derived.


I hope you realize that if you claim that God was not caused then that destroys the argument that everything must
have a cause and I can claim with equal validity that the universe had no cause and is infinite and hence does not require the existence of a creator. I.e. therefore there is no God, or at least God is unnecessary.

Cause and effect relations are events, in that events are the intersection of world lines. If the universe is a closed-timelike logic loop, it intersects with itself. Time is self creating. It emerges out of the background of unquantified potential since it has its own logical consistency.



Fine, but so what? You still haven’t shown that the universe was created or that it needed to be created. Can you demonstrate that the universe does not have infinite duration such that it would require a creator to start it?


An infinite chain of cause and effect is not a true explanation.

Also, all of the evidence points towards the fact that the universe has a beginning.



Physical laws must have a principle of organization.

Either physical laws result from a unifying principle of organization, or, physical laws result from an infinite regress.

Infinite regress is an absurdity,


Cris: WHY?


Well, if an infinite causal chain means that every explanation is explained in terms of a previous explanation, then the previous explanational foundation still needs an explanation of why it exists.

etc...etc...etc...etc...



[ abstract representation]---[semantic mapping]--->[represented system]

The abstract representation cannot be an "exact" semantic mapping with the physical system, since every nuance, or aspect, of the represented physical system cannot be known. Is it possible to explain the exact semantic mapping as a converging deductive limit, or converging series of axioms, that is approached but never reached?

The burden of proof would then be to prove that the limit is converging.

Start with an unspecified variable, for example, X.

X is an analytic proposition, then proceed with the a deductive process of deriving axioms.

Then in the opposite direction, start with the scientific method, utilizing an inductive limit, or more specifically, a series of deductive falsifications beginning with Newton's classical reality?

Let this be N.

Two "converging limits", that intersect at infinity.

X--->[represented system]<---N
 
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This is an interpretation of Chris Langan's model and Saint Anslem's ontological argument:


1.] If it is possible for a mind to perfectly understand[model] every aspect and detail of reality, then the mind that perfectly models reality is a super-intelligence, for all intents and purposes, the super-intelligence is God.

2.]If the perfect correspondence can be approached via a convergent analytic-synthetic propositional "limit", then the limit exists, even though a sentient mind within reality can only approach the limit.

3.] If the limit exists, the exact mental correspondence exists in the mind of a super-intelligence.

4.] That is to say, if the limit exists then a description exists.

5.] If the description exists then the "describer" exists, since the description is isomorphic.

6.]The describer is a super-intelligence.

7.] By definition, the super-intelligence is God.
 
1.] If it is possible for a mind to perfectly understand[model] every aspect and detail of reality, then the mind that perfectly models reality is a super-intelligence, for all intents and purposes, the super-intelligence is God.

Why do you place such value on an ultimately meaningless statement? I mean, that's a pretty big if you're building on.

If it is possible for monkeys to spontaneously appear blah blah blah.

I think that is exactly IM-possible from the definition of a POV for knowledge to be perfect as you describe.

Following your precedent I'll just rush to the conclusion: Therefore god doesn't exist.

:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by wesmorris
If it is possible for monkeys to spontaneously appear blah blah blah.

na ja...it is the first compliment I ever got, even if I have to misquote and misinterpret someone for it.
 
J.P.

If God creates time, God is independent of time. Time is created.

Hypothetically speaking, even if God was independant of (our) time(which I assume he would have to be), he would still be confined by a time dimension of his own. Time is a fundamental principle of not only our known universe, but everything. If God moves, functions, thinks, performs, etc.- then he operates via time. Movement and time are different definitions of the same thing. Therefore God is not independent of time in general.

The universe, along with the entire time line and the laws of physics, emerges from a background of unbound quantum potential [quantum field]. It is called the UBT by the Cognitive theoretic model. UBT is primary to spacetime; It is independent of the concepts of space and time.

I believe I know what you are talking about as it seems to ring a bell with my personal understanding of the universe.

What is quantum potential? Good question, I don't exactly know, but being primary to spacetime and the laws of physics, it is more than the emergent properties of the universe, hence it is more than the property known as "intelligence". UBT is for all intents and purposes, what we call "God". The unbound quantum potential, or the "UBT" was not an easy concept for me to fully grasp. Worse than infinity.

It sounds like to me that you are just switching labels. What's the point of this? You're switching the label of "universe or UBT" to "God". But switching labels should not allow you to subsequently switch meanings. You seem to want the best of both worlds- switching labels, and then quietly switching to the commonly associated meaning(of God). This is not valid deduction, it's the old bait-and-switch method.

You admit that the UBT was not easy for you to understand and that you still don't exactly know what it is- so how can you so confidently claim that this UBT is God?

God implies intelligence, UBT does not.

Even if God exists, how can you prove that he created our universe? Why would you just assume that if (a) God exists, that he of course created our known universe?
 
Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
na ja...it is the first compliment I ever got, even if I have to misquote and misinterpret someone for it.

LOL
 
Originally posted by J.P.
The sentient beings that are " 'not good enough' - intellectually speaking", are of the majority, not the minority? An exceptionally intelligent, rational thinking process[minority?] is valued, but it appears that some people? will also follow unethical leaders[majority?].
Huh? You've been reading Langan too much; you're making as little sense as he does. What you appear to be saying is: "Most people are stupid? Intelligent, rational people are valued but stupid people follow unethical leaders." This makes no sense as a reply to my statement.

Because the processing rate of global spacetime is the invariant "c", the global "independent" level of spacetime is "timeless".
All you did here was reiterate your unfounded assertion. Prove it.

The universe, along with the entire time line and the laws of physics, emerges from a background of unbound quantum potential [quantum field]. It is called the UBT by the Cognitive theoretic model. UBT is primary to spacetime; It is independent of the concepts of space and time.
Please give us an independent reference to UBT, I am unfamiliar with the term and can find no sources other than Langan.

UBT is for all intents and purposes, what we call "God".
Which means that you've inserted God into the equation without establishing it first.

The universe can be finite yet not have a boundary.
Incorrect. Any finite shape must have a boundary, although that boundary may be in a higher dimension.

If the limit is converging, finite sensible answers can be derived.
Not if it's infinitely converging. 1/infinity = ???
It emerges out of the background of unquantified potential since it has its own logical consistency.
Unfounded.

Well, if an infinite causal chain means that every explanation is explained in terms of a previous explanation, then the previous explanational foundation still needs an explanation of why it exists.
CTMU does not escape this. Self-recursion is still recursion.

~Raithere
 
Huh? You've been reading Langan too much; you're making as little sense as he does. What you appear to be saying is: "Most people are stupid? Intelligent, rational people are valued but stupid people follow unethical leaders." This makes no sense as a reply to my statement.

Not exactly, "people", in general, are NOT stupid. I will admit though, that it is still difficult for me to fully understand the CTMU ;)



All you did here was reiterate your unfounded assertion. Prove it.

It is not an unfounded assertion. It is basic relativity 101:
http://www.megafoundation.org/Ubiquity/March00/4DUniverse.html

QUOTE:
Time doesn't flow past Us. It's we who are moving down the time axis.
Sir Isaac Newton spoke of "time flowing like a river", and that's the way we perceive it. It seems to us as though time flows past us. But in reality, it's the other way around: it's we who are moving. Time is a dimension or direction just like the other three spatial dimensions, and everything up and down the time axis is static or frozen. It's our motion down the time axis that animates our world. It's like a 3-D Omnimax movie. The Omnimax film consists of several film reels of two-dimensional images that, when flashed in front of us on a screen, give us the illusion of a 3-D world in motion. If we stop the film(s), what we'll see are static 3-D images, with each successive image differing slightly from the preceding image. It's only when we run the films through the projectors that we get the illusion of motion.

A 3-D virtual reality simulation might be an even better example of our four-dimensional universe.

In, maybe, 10 more years or certainly in 20, we should be able to put together some really good computer simulations, with 3-D imagery perhaps fed to eye-mounted displays or a to wide-screen high-definition display, with stereo sound, tactile feedback, a "motion seat", and maybe even the release of various odors ("smell-a-vision"). Much of this is probably available right now at Wright-Patterson AFB, but in 10 or 20 years, it should be greatly improved, and maybe even cheap enough for us. And who knows what will be available in 200 or 300 years? The bottom line is that such simulations consist of successive frames of 3-D imagery flashed fast enough to give the illusion of continuous motion. There have been some virtual-reality simulations conducted in which the subject wears display goggles, earphones, and a tactile-feedback suit. The subject walks around in a large open area like a gymnasium, experiencing a virtual world. As time goes by, these simulations should become better and better and cheaper and cheaper, and most science fiction writers expect to see them become very popular--even addictive.

The point of all this is that the reality in which we actually live our lives is very much like the steadily improving virtual reality that we're gradually inventing. We are moving down the time-axis of a four-dimensional universe that consists of a continuous series of three-dimensional "frames" or cross-sections that are ourselves and the objects around us at a succession of instants. Just like 70-mm. movie frames in an Omnimax 3-D theater film, each cross-section (three-dimensional tableau) is slightly different from the cross-sections before it and the cross-sections after it. It is these changes from frame to frame, when we zip through them, that give us the illusion of continuous motion. However, whereas a movie film is two-dimensional, and an Omnimax film uses several two-dimensional film strips simultaneously to create magnified 3-D imagery, the universe in which we live consists of a 4-D objects that we perceive as a continuous succession of full-size 3-D objects. It's our mental motion along this continuous succession of gradually changing 3-D cross-sections of 4-D objects that creates the illusion of motion. And the time axis is just like a spatial axis. What makes it unique is that,

1. For some reason, we can't see the past or the future--only the present. Being able to see only the present amounts to our being to able to see only a razor-thin window revealing what lies directly perpendicular to the time axis, but not being able to actually see anything that lies behind us or in front of us in the time direction.

2. For some reason, we're moving down the time axis rather than one of the other three axes.

3. Our speed down the time axis is fixed. We can't stop, speed up, or slow down. ("Stop the world! I want to get off!")
One of the possibilities is that you're really experiencing a super-realistic computer simulation. Maybe in some laboratory beyond our present awareness, you're hooked up neurally to "God's" computer, and the life you're experiencing, including reading this presentation, is really only a hyper-sophisticated computer simulation.
END QUOTE



Please give us an independent reference to UBT, I am unfamiliar with the term and can find no sources other than Langan.

UBT is potential for every configuration state. Those states that have their own internally consistent logics possess the ontological wherewithal to sustain their own existence.

Here is a definition of quantum "potentiality":
http://www.fdavidpeat.com/interviews/heisenberg.htm

QUOTE:
DP: In discussing the 'collapse of the wave function' you introduced the notion of potentiality. Would you elaborate on this idea?
The question is: 'What does a wave function actually describe?' In old physics, the mathematical scheme described a system as it was, there in space and time. One could call this an objective description of the system. But in quantum theory the wave function cannot be called a description of an objective system, but rather a description of observational situations. When we have a wave function, we cannot yet know what will happen in an experiment; we must also know the experimental arrangement. When we have the wave function and the experimental arrangement for the special case considered, only then can we make predictions. So, in that sense, I like to call the wave function a description of the potentialities of the system.
DP Then the interaction with the apparatus would be a potentiality coming into actuality?
Yes.
END QUOTE



Which means that you've inserted God into the equation without establishing it first.

No, "God" is the only answer that completes the equation.



Incorrect. Any finite shape must have a boundary, although that boundary may be in a higher dimension.

You will have to talk with Stephen Hawking. He discovered the "No Boundary Principle":

http://www.hawking.org.uk/text/public/bot.html

QUOTE:
In fact, James Hartle of the University of California Santa Barbara, and I have proposed that space and imaginary time together, are indeed finite in extent, but without boundary. They would be like the surface of the Earth, but with two more dimensions. The surface of the Earth is finite in extent, but it doesn't have any boundaries or edges. I have been round the world, and I didn't fall off.
If space and imaginary time are indeed like the surface of the Earth, there wouldn't be any singularities in the imaginary time direction, at which the laws of physics would break down. And there wouldn't be any boundaries, to the imaginary time space-time, just as there aren't any boundaries to the surface of the Earth. This absence of boundaries means that the laws of physics would determine the state of the universe uniquely, in imaginary time. But if one knows the state of the universe in imaginary time, one can calculate the state of the universe in real time. One would still expect some sort of Big Bang singularity in real time. So real time would still have a beginning. But one wouldn't have to appeal to something outside the universe, to determine how the universe began. Instead, the way the universe started out at the Big Bang would be determined by the state of the universe in imaginary time. Thus, the universe would be a completely self-contained system. It would not be determined by anything outside the physical universe, that we observe.
END QUOTE



Not if it's infinitely converging. 1/infinity = ???
Unfounded.

Elementary calculus, limits:

Limit
x--->infinity 1/x = 0
The convergence to zero is a sensible answer.



CTMU does not escape this. Self-recursion is still recursion.

You probably have a good point here Raithere, why does potential exist, even if it is not a temporal existence in itself, how can it exist?

I have my own theory, that says total nothingness is exactly equivalent to a perfect and infinite symmetry. Therefore, there "must" be a definite probability that this infinite symmetry will spontaneously start symmetry breaking .

In that regard, my theory ;) is superior to the Cognitive model.
 
Originally posted by J.P.
I will admit though, that it is still difficult for me to fully understand the CTMU.
It really doesn't seem to be your fault J.P. I've read several of Langan's articles and interviews now and, even if I give him the benefit of the doubt that he is on to something, he expresses it very poorly and very cryptically. 195 I.Q. or no, he does not give enough information with which to analyze his claims and his logical proofs have holes in them. If you're interested in a more thorough treatment of isomorphic recursion as it pertains to consciousness and perhaps the Universe, I suggest "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Hofstadter.

It is not an unfounded assertion. It is basic relativity 101:
I understand time as a dimension; where the argument becomes weak or at least where it is insufficiently explained is where he introduces the idea of a 'timeless' God acting upon time.

UBT is potential for every configuration state. Those states that have their own internally consistent logics possess the ontological wherewithal to sustain their own existence.
But quantum potentiality does not allow for every state, it is a function within a system; constrained not unlimited. Nor has it been proven that 'internally consistent logics' allow potentialities to become reality. And if it can be, how is it that one such potential becomes existent while the others do not?

No, "God" is the only answer that completes the equation.
If UBT is the equivalent of God it cannot be dropped into the middle of the argument unestablished. It must first be proven.

You will have to talk with Stephen Hawking. He discovered the "No Boundary Principle"
Okay, in this context I agree.

The convergence to zero is a sensible answer.
But it will never get there, not if the continuum is infinitely divisible.

I have my own theory, that says total nothingness is exactly equivalent to a perfect and infinite symmetry. Therefore, there "must" be a definite probability that this infinite symmetry will spontaneously start symmetry breaking.
I like that thought but, infinite in what way? And what is it that's infinitely symmetrical? Ouch...

~Raithere
 
Changing Subjects Slightly...

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/EvidenceForDesignInTheUniverse.html


I currently believe that there was no higher intellegence that designed our universe. I was presented with this (link above), but I fear that I have little knowledge in physics, and very little intellegence overall. Even with this handicap, I would very much like to know if there was or was not a higher designer. So can you please help me understand how this proves one?

All I could get from it was that if our universe was different, then it would be different. Trial-and-error of the universe also comes to mind....(if this area isn't randomly-by-chance fit for life, then no life would exist here)

Please help
 
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