Logical Proof of Intelligent Design

J.P.

Registered Senior Member
The universe is defined as the totality of all that exists.


Within the universe, cause precedes effect.

If cause, then effect:

If A then B

A

Therefore B


The purpose of "cause" is to create an effect.

Cause and effect are mutually dependent. If there is no effect, then there is no cause:

If not B then not A,

not B

therefore not A

The universe creates its own purpose. If it did not create its own purpose, it would be totally chaotic, or, it would be totally deterministic. We observe the universe as a system with consistent laws, therefore, it is not totally chaotic.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle explains that both the position and momentum of a particle, cannot be determined precisely, and this uncertainty is an intrinsic property of the universe, so the universe cannot be totally deterministic.

Therefore, the universe creates its own purpose.

Purpose implies intent, intent implies mind, mind implies intelligence.

If the universe is an effect, and the cause of the effect is within the universe, then the universe creates itself.


Therefore:

The universe is an intelligent mind.
 
Are you trying to say that the universe and everything in it is god? And that everything is a part of god (the universe)?
 
If free will exists, then undeniable proof for the existence of God cannot "exist", because free will would then be negated.

Free will exists

Therefore God exists and this proof may be denied.
 
This is my interpretation of the ontological proofs of Anslem, Leibniz, and Goedel:

1.) A property is positive iff its negation is not positive.

2.) A property is positive if it necessarily contains a positive property[self containment]

3.) A positive property is logically consistent.

4.) A property is God-like iff, it contains all positive properties. The term "God" is therefore defined as an unlimited being that is self contained, and contains, all positive properties.

5.)Being God-like is a positive property

6.) Being a positive property is logically necessary.

7.) Necessary existence is a positive property.

8.) Therefore God exists.
 
Originally posted by J.P.
The purpose of "cause" is to create an effect.
The designation of purpose is spurious here. As you later state, purpose implies intent. You haven't established this; you're assuming intent without substantiation.

Free will exists
Another assumption.

A property is God-like iff, it contains all positive properties. The term "God" is therefore defined as an unlimited being that is self contained, and contains, all positive properties.
Defining God as a 'being', as 'self-contained', or as 'intelligent' limits the scope of God, excluding that which is not 'being', 'self-contained', or 'intelligent'. It therefore does not contain all positive properties and is not God by definition.

~Raithere
 
J.P.

Welcome to sciforums.

The universe is defined as the totality of all that exists.
OK.

Within the universe, cause precedes effect.
Perhaps, except for the case of an infinite object.

The purpose of "cause" is to create an effect.
No that is invalid. A cause need not have any purpose. One cannot claim that when I walked in the rain that ‘rain’ intended and had a purpose to make me wet.

Cause and effect are mutually dependent. If there is no effect, then there is no cause..
Except for the case of an infinite object.

The universe creates its own purpose.
This a non sequitur – it does not follow from your previous dubious premises.

If it did not create its own purpose, it would be totally chaotic, or, it would be totally deterministic.
These seems to be just baseless assertions.

We observe the universe as a system with consistent laws, therefore, it is not totally chaotic.
OK.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle explains that both the position and momentum of a particle, cannot be determined precisely, and this uncertainty is an intrinsic property of the universe, so the universe cannot be totally deterministic.
Not quite. The principle says that we cannot determine both characteristics simultaneously. The uncertainty principle does not say "everything is uncertain." Rather, it tells us very exactly where the limits of uncertainty lie when we make measurements of sub-atomic events.

Therefore, the universe creates its own purpose.
Non sequitur. You have not shown that the universe is capable of purpose, that was only an assertion.

Purpose implies intent, intent implies mind, mind implies intelligence.
True.

If the universe is an effect, and the cause of the effect is within the universe, then the universe creates itself.
This is paradoxical. If the universe did not exist at some point then there could be no ‘within’ to have a cause.

Also from your first assertion that the universe is everything then how could there have been a cause of the universe. Again if there was a point where nothing existed then there would be nothing to constitute a cause.

Therefore:

The universe is an intelligent mind.
Not even close to a proof.
 
I would like to point out a few things that I found a little Iffy about your proof:

Originally posted by J.P.
The purpose of "cause" is to create an effect.

Cause and effect are mutually dependent. If there is no effect, then there is no cause:

You give no reason why the "purpose" of cause is to create an effect. You have given cause and effect a probable relationship. Building on this probablility invalidates some of your later claims.

This section should read:
The "purpose" of cause is to possibly provide for the creation of an effect.

Originally posted by J.P.
The universe creates its own purpose. If it did not create its own purpose, it would be totally chaotic, or, it would be totally deterministic. We observe the universe as a system with consistent laws, therefore, it is not totally chaotic.

The universe is not totally chaotic, but it is very chaotic. Everything is in a state of change and decay. Our observation of the universe has not shown it to contain "consistent laws", as a matter of fact there are many things that refute any kind of stability at all (anit-matter, negative energy, neutrinos)


Originally posted by J.P.
Therefore, the universe creates its own purpose.

No, this is not based in logic. Determinism is not proof of the universe creating purpose through cause and effect, that is a relative view forced upon the universe by the human mind.

Originally posted by J.P.
Purpose implies intent, intent implies mind, mind implies intelligence.

Purpose has not at all been shown to be used in the cause/effect relationship, so this assertion is not correct. Intent is not shown in this proof either. That is an assumption.

Originally posted by J.P.
If the universe is an effect, and the cause of the effect is within the universe, then the universe creates itself.

The universe is an intelligent mind.

You did not accurately or effectively show that creation (cause and effect) denotes purpose or intent.

ZERO MASS
 
J.P.,

If free will exists, then undeniable proof for the existence of God cannot "exist", because free will would then be negated.
Doesn’t this depend on the characteristics and definition of God? For example we can argue that if he has the property of omniscience then all events are necessarily predetermined which negates the possibility of human free will. In this case if free will does exist then this type of god cannot exist.

Free will exists
How do you know?

Therefore God exists and this proof may be denied.
How are you defining God? There are thousands of definitions.
 
Very interesting. This physics agrees with the Total Existence = Holistic Mind hypothesis:

http://twm.co.nz/goswam1.htm
QUOTE:
----------------
AG: To give a little background, what had been happening was that for many years quantum physics had been giving indications that there are levels of reality other than the material level. How it started happening first was that quantum objects—objects in quantum physics—began to be looked upon as waves of possibility. Now, initially people thought, "Oh, they are just like regular waves." But very soon it was found out that, no, they are not waves in space and time. They cannot be called waves in space and time at all—they have properties which do not jibe with those of ordinary waves. So they began to be recognized as waves in potential, waves of possibility, and the potential was recognized as transcendent, beyond matter somehow.
But the fact that there is transcendent potential was not very clear for a long time. Then Aspect's experiment verified that this is not just theory, there really is transcendent potential, objects really do have connections outside of space and time—outside of space and time! What happens in this experiment is that an atom emits two quanta of light, called photons, going opposite ways, and somehow these photons affect one another's behavior at a distance, without exchanging any signals through space. Notice that: without exchanging any signals through space but instantly affecting each other. Instantaneously.
Now Einstein showed long ago that two objects can never affect each other instantly in space and time because everything must travel with a maximum speed limit, and that speed limit is the speed of light. So any influence must travel, if it travels through space, taking a finite time. This is called the idea of "locality." Every signal is supposed to be local in the sense that it must take a finite time to travel through space. And yet, Aspect's photons—the photons emitted by the atom in Aspect's experiment—influence one another, at a distance, without exchanging signals because they are doing it instantaneously—they are doing it faster than the speed of light. And therefore it follows that the influence could not have traveled through space. Instead the influence must belong to a domain of reality that we must recognize as the transcendent domain of reality.
 
Here is a much better and more compact version of the ontological argument, than my ad-hoc patchwork :

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/ontol.html

1. (G-->[]G)-->(<>G-->G) (Theorem, sub G for P)
2. G-->[]G (Def of God)
3. <>G (premise)
4. <>G-->G (1, 2 MP)
5. G (4, 3 MP)


COMMENTARY
It is quite a simple argument which makes it hard to understand its fullness. The simple is packed with meaning.
As you can see, there is one and only one premise, that it is possible that God exists. If this be granted, then his necessary existence follows.
Since all efforts to show that the concept of God is contradictory have failed heretofore I conclude, somewhat reluctantly, that God exists. Kai Neilson tried to argue this in his debate with J.P. Moreland, but didn’t make much progress.
Now I realize that to the average person, this seems like a trick, but the average person is not particularly accustomed to following logical arguments at all, much less highly specialized forms of logical calculi developed by professional philosophers. Most professors at the University level don’t even know modal logic and many have never studied it and some have never heard of it. What do those who know it, but don’t believe in God say? They say that the concept of God is incoherent. I have not yet seen an even slightly plausible argument to that effect. Until I do, the OA will be cogent to me. I might add that I am a convert on this argument. I argued for years that the ontological argument was flawed until someone showed me the modal version. I have always followed Reason wherever it lead and, as usual, it lead to God.
 
J.P.
The universe is defined as the totality of all that exists.
In literature in science papers and in common speech there are concepts referred to as alternative or parallel universes. Therefore, saying, “the universe is defined as the totality of all that exists” is incorrect. Even if the universe was commonly referred to, as everything that exists any statement defining it would be meaningless we have no idea what is beyond our sight.

Within the universe, cause precedes effect.

The universe is a very big place with lots of strange things happening. Cause and effect are very useful ideas but we just don’t know what is happening around the corner or in a different dimension.
 
J.P,

Within the universe, cause precedes effect.
Except at the quantum level where effects have been observed before their cause.
 
Originally posted by J.P.
As you can see, there is one and only one premise, that it is possible that God exists. If this be granted, then his necessary existence follows.
We may also call into question the definition of god as a necessary being.
This is an assumption as god defined as a necessary being is only a possible definition of god.
All the OA says essentially is that if god is a necessary being then god exists.

Therefore <>(G->[]G) and all we wind up with is <>G.

~Raithere
 
For Cris and all atheists,

Here is logical, irrefutable proof of God's existence :
http://www.megafoundation.org/Ubiquity/CTMU.html


QUOTE:
What does this say about God? First, if God is real, then God inheres in the comprehensive reality syntax, and this syntax inheres in matter. Ergo, God inheres in matter, and indeed in its spacetime substrate as defined on material and supramaterial levels. This amounts to pantheism, the thesis that God is omnipresent with respect to the material universe. Now, if the universe were pluralistic or reducible to its parts, this would make God (like the universe) a pluralistic entity with no internal cohesion. But because the mutual (syntactic) consistency of parts is enforced by a unitary holistic manifold with logical ascendancy over the parts themselves - because the universe is a monic entity consisting of essentially homogeneous, self-consistent infocognition - God retains monotheistic unity despite being distributed over reality at large. Thus, we have a new kind of theology called monopantheism, or even more descriptively, holopantheism. Second, God is indeed real, for a coherent entity identified with a self-perceptual universe is self-perceptual in nature, and this endows it with various levels of self-awareness and sentience, or constructively creative intelligence. Indeed, without a guiding entity whose self-awareness equates to the coherence of self-perceptual spacetime, a self-perceptual universe could not coherently self-configure. Monopantheism is the logical, metatheological umbrella beneath which the great religions of mankind are (sometimes blindly) situated.

Why, if there exists a metareligion in which to establish the brotherhood of man through the unity of sentience, are men perpetually at each others' throats? Unfortunately, most human brains, which comprise a particular highly-evolved subset of the set of all reality-subsystems, do not fire in strict isomorphism to S much above the object level. Where we define one aspect of "intelligence" as the amount of global structure functionally represented by a given sÎS, brains of low intelligence are generally out of accord with the global syntax D(S). This limits their capacity to form true representations of S (global reality) by syntactic autology [d(S)àd(S)] and make rational ethical calculations. In this sense, the vast majority of men are "not good enough", intellectually speaking, to form rational worldviews and societies; they are deficient in education and intellect, albeit remediably so in many cases. This is why force has ruled in the world of man…why might has always made right, despite its marked tendency to violate the optimization of global utility derived by summing over the sentient agents of S with respect to space and time.

Now, in the course of employing deadly force to rule their fellows, the very worst element of humanity – the butchers, the violators, the ancestors of the "nobility", i.e. those of whom many modern leaders and politicians are merely slightly-chastened copies – began to consider ways of maintaining power. They lit on what passes today for religion, an authoritarian priesthood of which can be used to set the minds and actions of a populace for or against any given aspect of the political status quo. Others, jealous of the power thereby consolidated, began to use religion to gather their own "sheep", promising special entitlements to those who would join them…mutually conflicting promises now setting the promisees at each other’s throats.

But although religion was consistently employed for evil, several things bear notice. (1) The abuse of religion, and the God concept, has always been driven by human politics, and no one is justified in blaming the God concept, whether it is real or not, for the abuses committed by evil men in its name. Abusus non tollit usum. (2) A religion must provide at least emotional utility for its believers, and any religion that stands the test of time has obviously been doing so. (3) A credible religion must contain elements of truth and undecidability, but no elements that are verifiably false (for that could be used to overthrow the religion and its sponsors). So by design, religious beliefs generally cannot be refuted by rational or empirical means.

Does the reverse apply? Can a denial of God be refuted by rational or empirical means? The short answer is yes; the refutation follows the reasoning outlined above. That is, the above reasoning constitutes not just a logical framework for reality theory, but the outline of a logical proof of God's existence and the basis of a new "logical theology". The framework serves other useful purposes as well - e.g., the analysis of mind and consciousness - but we'll save that for another time.
 
J.P.

I found the article total gibberish.

It can be reduced and summarized very simply as -

The universe exists therefore God exists.

The conclusion is a non sequitur.
 
Defining God as a 'being', as 'self-contained', or as 'intelligent' limits the scope of God, excluding that which is not 'being', 'self-contained', or 'intelligent'. It therefore does not contain all positive properties and is not God by definition.



Answer, for Raithere:

[1.]The interval from zero to one has an "unlimited" number of fractions. God can be both finite and infinite, not just infinite. Therefore God is self contained and unlimited.
[2.] Anything that exists is a positive property.
[3.] God is defined as "more" than intelligent.
[4.] God contains all positive properties by definition

Definition:

G = God = creator

C = creation = that wich is created

G > C

C is dependent on G.

Without G, C would not exist.

P--->Q
means "if P then Q" ,
P
therefore Q

Proof? :

[1.] G is necessary or G is impossible, G or not-G

[2..] If G exists, G's existence is necessary, "N" , G--->N[G]

[3.] The existence of G is not a contradiction

[4.] Therefore G is not impossible

[5.] N[G] or not-N[G]

[6.] not-N[G]--->N[not-N[G]]

[7.] N[G] or N[not-N[G]]

[8.] N[not-N[G]] --->N[not-G]

[9.] N[G] or N[not-G]

[10.] not-N[not-G]

[11.] N[G]

[12.] G
 
Dude. You are messing yourself all up.

You cannot analyze and prove or disprove god, that's the whole thing.

To do so you must necessarily claim authoritative knowledge. I have a big problem with that, but that aspect is a whole other conversation.

It's that simple.

For instance:

"[1.] G is necessary or G is impossible, G or not-G "

Do you think this is the entire spectrum of possibility?

What if G is unfathomable? What if the comprehension of role of G is simply beyond manipulation in some sort of proof? I think this alone renders your proof, proofless, as you are insisting on one or the other whereas by the definition of the creator you cannot insist jack, as logic is not necessarily applicable.

I'm almost certain that only thing PROVABLE regarding the existence of "god(s)" is that the existance of "god(s)" is unprovable, even by those god(s) themselves if they were to exist.
 
J.P.

C = creation = that which is created
This is invalid, you have not established that the universe was created or that it must have been created.

C is dependent on G.
Invalid for the same reason as above.

Without G, C would not exist.
Invalid yet again for the same reason.

We know the universe exists.

We do not know that a god exists or could exist.

We do not know whether the universe had a beginning and hence cannot conclude that a creator is necessary.

If you argue that every effect has a cause then you must explain the cause of God in the same way you are arguing that the universe had a cause. In this case we can prove that God does not exist – i.e. -

If we assume that G is caused by a super G (Gn-1) then Gn-1 must have been caused by a super super G (Gn-2). This in turn is caused by Gn-3. The series is infinite and requires Gn-infinity. Since infinity in this case has no beginning then there can never be a point where an original creator could exist and hence the whole series is impossible which in turn means that God cannot and therefore does not exist.

Once you accept that not everything must have a cause then that argument for a creator god becomes invalid.
 
Originally posted by J.P.
The interval from zero to one has an "unlimited" number of fractions. God can be both finite and infinite, not just infinite. Therefore God is self contained and unlimited.
You have not proven your conclusion here. What you have stated is that god is infinitely divisible not that God is 'unlimited'. While this means that god is continuous it does not mean that god is unlimited. To be finite is to be limited.

Anything that exists is a positive property.
Only by definition of your set, this may or may not have any correlation to reality.

God is defined as "more" than intelligent.
Presumptive and irrelevant in context.

God contains all positive properties by definition
Again, this is only one possible definition. There are theoretically an infinite number of possible definitions of god. Additionally the set of 'all positive properties' has not been properly defined or asserted through argument. Just what does the set of 'all positive properties' entail?

G = God = creator
C = creation = that wich is created
G > C
C is dependent on G.
Without G, C would not exist.
C is dependent upon G for what?

P--->Q
means "if P then Q" ,
P
therefore Q
What are you trying to say? If I substitute apples for P and ketchup for Q how does this translate? If apples then ketchup?

G is necessary or G is impossible, G or not-G
False dilemma; what about <>G for instance?

If G exists, G's existence is necessary, "N" , G--->N[G]
No. That something exists does not mean that its existence is necessary, if this were so anything that existed would always exist. We know that this is not true from experience.

The existence of G is not a contradiction
This depends upon the definition of G.

The rest of it doesn't even make sense. Try again.

~Raithere
 
Re: Langan's article.

Sorry J.P. but I concur with Cris here.

Poorly reasoned arguments expressed horribly.

I particularly enjoyed the part where he essentially calls those who do not perceive his conjectural 'metareligion' stupid.

~Raithere
 
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