Let's cut through the chase: Jesus didn't exist.

[SnakeLord]

I looked again, the story I referred to about the Noregian woman from 1963 is second-hand although I respect the source.

And.......... you still fail to provide a link.

Look Visitor, I don't care that you think Eve was more fertile, or bonked a snake.. You made a statement and I asked for a link because it sounds interesting.

For the tenth time: any chance you can provide me with a link? Thank you.

 

[TheVisitor]

You'll just have to do some independent research.
Im sorry every truth in this life doesn't have a link you can follow on the net to it.
This sort of makes since though doesn't it...?
The kingdoms of this world are still in Satan's hand, till Christ takes back what he won and earned at the cross... the title deed which was forfitted by Adam in the beginning.

 

[(Q)]

The kingdoms of this world are still in Satan's hand, till Christ takes back what he won and earned at the cross... the title deed which was forfitted by Adam in the beginning.

Hence, its all not worth a plug nickel.

 

[TheVisitor]

Maybe the "plug nickel" is just in your mind plugging it up....
The right attitude toward any promise of God will bring it to pass.

 

[Provita]

Just asking... is there any die-hard proof that Jesus never existed? Yes, it is fully possible that he didn't do miracles, but again, unless you see them, you cannot prove them. But you also cannot disprove them. The argument "miracles are impossible" is stupid... the fact that Jesus supposedly did something supposedly impossible is what MAKES it a miracle... please show me evidence that jesus never existed, if not, wy do you claim he doesnt? Are you so ignorant as to automatically go with a certain crowd cause it makes sense? Believing he never existed is one thing which has total sense behind it; claiming undoubtly that he never existed is another thing entirely.

Please, offer me one shred of evidence disproving him. I doubt you will find any hardcore evidence. I seriously doubt it. But i dont know u wont, for that is impossible.

 

[terryoh]

*************
M*W: Let's get right down to it. Jesus didn't exist, and there is no proof that confirms he existed. Why is it that people continue to believe he is their dying demigod savior? When will they ever learn that there is no Jesus. No savior. No heaven. No hell. No religion? When will you people realize you are living a big fat lie?

you're right, in a sense. there is no proof, other than the new testament, that jesus existed.

just like how there is no proof that anyone in history existed by just historical texts alone, right? hannibal barca? he couldn't have existed. there's no proof other than historical texts.

in fact, hammurabi? no way! no way, no how. no proof that confirms he existed. i can't trust a bunch of tablets written in clay and a bunch of possibly faked mosaics.

get my point? you can use the same argument for anyone in history.

 

[Ophiolite]

I don't believe Medicine Woman exists. We certainly have no proof. I believe she is a composite persona created by a group of defrocked Irish priests, bitter against the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[SnakeLord]

is there any die-hard proof that Jesus never existed?

"Die hard" proof of a negative? Lol.

Is there any die hard proof that the invisible flying godly banana milkshake does not exist?

Don't be a fool.

 

[Provita]

Exactly. So why is this argument even in existence. It is quite impossibe to prove or disprove Jesus's existence. That is why it left to belief or non-belief. If it was posible to disprove his existence, it would have been done and Christianity would not exist. If it was possible to prove he existed and did exactly as the Bible says (or atleast some miracles), then Christianity would be looked upon differently.

 

[(Q)]

Maybe the "plug nickel" is just in your mind plugging it up....
The right attitude toward any promise of God will bring it to pass.

That would be in complete contradiction to your previous post, then.

 

[SnakeLord]

So why is this argument even in existence.

Some people make claims. Other people ask those people to substantiate those claims.

Such is life. If people don't like that, I would advise that they not go around making claims.

It is quite impossibe to prove or disprove Jesus's existence.

It works on the evidence. There isn't really any evidence to suggest jesus ever existed as a real character, much like there isn't really any evidence to suggest the invisible flying godly banana milkshake exists either.

As such, neither of them are really worth the time.

That is why it left to belief or non-belief.

Inaccurate. On the one side it is left to belief, (those that believe in non-evidential thigns). On the other side it is left to the evidence, (of which there isn't any).

 

[TheVisitor]

That would be in complete contradiction to your previous post, then.

Wrong again Q, your saying it doesn't make it true....
I wouldn't go jumping off any buildings just yet...peter pan
You faith isn't strong enough for flying.
Being right is an important part in having the faith to do the imposible.
Thats why "the good guys alway win"

 

[Iasion]

Greetings,

Just asking... is there any die-hard proof that Jesus never existed?

Are you serious?
Did you even think about this silly argument for one second?

Is there any die-hard proof that Odysseus never existed?
No.
Therefore you will be converting to paganism?

Is there any die-hard proof that Krishna never existed?
No.
Therefore you will be converting to Hindusim?

Is there any die-hard proof that the moon's centre is not made of Green Cheese?
No.
Therefore you believe it is.

etc.

This is complete nonsense.
It is POSITIVE claims that require proof.

There is NO EVIDENCE that Jesus existed.
There is evidence and arguments that support him being a myth.

Yes, it is fully possible that he didn't do miracles, but again, unless you see them, you cannot prove them. But you also cannot disprove them.

What nonsense.
Did YOU see the miracles that Charles Manson did?
No.
Therefore you must agree he did miracles.

Did YOU see the miracles that HPB did?
No.
Therefore you must agree she did miracles.

Let me guess - you only believe this silly argument when it applies to YOUR myths.

The argument "miracles are impossible" is stupid... the fact that Jesus supposedly did something supposedly impossible is what MAKES it a miracle...

What Rubbish.
We have NEVER seen miracles.
There is NO evidence of Jesus.
There is NO evidence of Jesus doing miracles.

What about the miracles of Dionysus?
What about the miracles of Krishna?
What about the miracles of Osiris?

Just as miraculous, just as mythical.

please show me evidence that jesus never existed, if not, wy do you claim he doesnt?

What nonsense.
Please show evidence that Frodo Baggins never existed.
If you can't - why do you claim he doesn't?

Here are some arguments that Jesus was a myth :
http://home.ca.inter.net/oblio/home.htm
When you have read that, get back to us.

Are you so ignorant as to automatically go with a certain crowd cause it makes sense?

What stupid nonsense.
You are saying it's wrong to agree with what makes sense?
In other words, you prefer NONSENSE.

It is you who are following the crowd - the crowd of ignorant believers.

Believing he never existed is one thing which has total sense behind it; claiming undoubtly that he never existed is another thing entirely.

The EVIDENCE shows he never existed.
There is NO EVIDENCE he existed.
All you have is BELIEF in ancient legends,
yet strangely you only believe ONE ancient legend, and reject all the others - Osiris, Dionysus, Iasius etc.

Please, offer me one shred of evidence disproving him. I doubt you will find any hardcore evidence. I seriously doubt it. But i dont know u wont, for that is impossible.

Sure.

Here is a very good site with a detailed argument showing Jesus was a myth :
http://home.ca.inter.net/oblio/home.htm

Try his 12 easy pieces - a simple introduction.

Here is a good summary of the argument that Jesus is a myth :
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/fiction.html

When you have read the arguments, get back to us with your answer.


Iasion

 

[Satyr]

Jesus will have his day in court.

Did Jesus exist? Court to decide
http://www.ksdk.com/news/hot_topics_articl...x?storyid=91389
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1469984

Here some very interesting argument on Luigi Cascioli: http://www.luigicascioli.it/prove2_eng.php

The question, is Luigi Cascioli going to win the court ?
I say, this should be quite interesting to see the outcome.

- If the court say that Jesus exist well there will be party everywhere for all the Xiens outthere. As for the atheists well whe will just keep seeking untill they find REAL evidence of his existence.

- If the court say that Jesus DONT exist, it will be chaotic for the Xiens, as for the atheists, well whe dont celebrate such thing cause we already know he doesn't exist. So let them have ther faith

How dare you, Madame, insinuate that all our beliefs and hopes are based on an illusion caused by our desperate desire to preserve our meaningfulness and special universal status?!

When Jesus hears about this you’ll pay.

 

[TheVisitor]

Not only DID Jesus exit, but raised from the dead, asended to heaven, and is still alive revealing Himself as He promised as the son of man today.
Miracles and supernatural revealation abound.
There is more miracles and evidence of His ministry today than His ministry 2000 years ago.
Remember He promised to come back in the generation that saw Israel become a nation.
Did you think that didn't happen?.....it did.
He also said He'd come like a thief in the night, that means like a thief.....
He will have come and gone before the owner of the house even knows He was there.
He said He'd only reveal Himself to those who "love His appearing"
The rest won't know a thing, as a mater of fact the scoffers say;
"where is the promise of His coming, all things remain the same from when the fathers fell asleep."
You see you scoffers won't get it, you won't see a thing and you weren't meant to.....so your probably right,
Go on and keep saying He never existed.....
There is a saying;
"Fools tred with hobnailed shoes, where angels fear to trod"......

 

[qwerty mob]

Awesome post, Iasion.

...

"Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears."
-Louis D. Brandeis

 

[Provita]

Iasion... one form of evidence Jesus existed is the entire New Testament... but then again, its seen as rubbish to you, so that isnt a good starting point. If the pyramids were built and then all destroyed, with no remains at all, but only text explaining what they looked like, it is quite possible no one would believe it... It is impossible to prove that Odysseus never existed. For all you know, he could have existed. Would be quite interesting really... would change the way we look at Greek "mythology" entirely.

And yes, we dont know for sure the center of the moon isnt green cheese... heh... now THAT would be a find! Anyone can figure out the possibilities and dismiss the less possible, but not everyone can accept the fact that all things are possible, and that one is just more likely.

Just because Jesus existed does not mean you have to believe in Christianity. Its pretty impsosible to prove he was the son of God... so its pretty irrelivent. Until you PROVE he never existed, it is a possibility. Whether that possibility be .00000000000000000000000001 % or even less, there is still a possibility.

 

[Silas]

SnakeLord - I posted a link to a similar story (about mixed race twins) didn't you see it?

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=bizarre&id=3931571

 

[Iasion]

Greetings,

one form of evidence Jesus existed is the entire New Testament...

But it's such poor evidence -
* anonymous works
* many forged
* none met Jesus
* from decades or more later
* preaching a new religion
* not supported by external history
* clearly crafted from the OT

It looks like religious myth, smells like religious myth, sounds like religious myth.

It IS religious myth
(part midrash, part literature.)

but then again, its seen as rubbish to you, so that isnt a good starting point.

No, not rubbish - but MYTH.
G.Mark was a grand new creation of spiritual literature, based on Paul's elevated musings on his Iesous Christos.
A.Mark took the theme of the perfect man inside - the Christos, our immortal soul - and created a story of a man who typified that inner, higher ideal.

It was a huge success - such is the way among the religious-minded - a new idea that seems to explain the higher workings of reality takes hold of the popular imagination (remember the Toronto blessing, or the Welsh Revival?)

G.Mark then spawned imitators, and AFTER TWO WARS with Rome
* the Temple destroyed
* Jerusalem mostly destroyed, and renamed
* the Jews dispersed
* Judea erased from the map

Only then,
did these stories start to be seen as history.

No-one LIED - no-one tried a FRAUD.

It was just a mistake - the Gospel of Mark was such a powerful piece of spiritual and religious imagination, that people thought it was true.

Consider that in scholarly circles, it is not even at all clear what GENRE G.Mark was written as.

It seems to cover so many categories -
* midrash on the OT
* pagan literature
* myth
* history

I think the author of G.Mark thought he was writing a religious allegory, (somewhat like Jonathan Livinsgtone Seagull perhaps, to use a modern example readers may know).

Mark expanded on Paul -
"We all have a Iesous Christos in us (the hope of Doxa)
Jesus is how a perfectly realised man would be."
Here is how we should act, if we could realise the Christ within".

I don't think Mark ever thought his work would be seen as history.

And for a century or so - Christians did not see Jesus as a historical person.

Not until early-mid 2nd centurt do Christian writers start to mention earthly details about Jesus.

No Christian shows any knowledge of the Gospels or their contents until early-mid 2nd century.

You can see this laid out in this table:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/Table.html

And yes, we dont know for sure the center of the moon isnt green cheese...Until you PROVE he never existed, it is a possibility.

I think we agree then -
Jesus existing is just as likely as the moon being made of green cheese.


(and Thanks qwerty


Iasion

 

[Silas]

I'm afraid I just haven't had time to come back and respond adequately to SnakeLord's excellent long post on the topic subject. Visitor, if you believe in the Bible then you should believe in the Bible alone, and not start speculating (or parroting what you've been told) about nonsensical ape-serpents.

Iasion, that site doesn't really present "arguments" in the digestible form that the links Godless gave does, but rather a more fully worked out thesis.

Did Christianity begin with an historical Jesus or a Jesus myth? Was the original Jesus a man or a mythical savior god? Solving the Jesus Puzzle through the Christian and ancient-world record, from the Pauline epistles to the Gospels to the second century Christian apologists, from Philo to Josephus to Jewish and Hellenistic philosophy.
Christian faith evolved from a Jesus myth to an historical Jesus. New Testament scholarship needs to uncover that original evolution and rewrite the history of Western religion.

"Was the original Jesus a man or a mythical savior god?" I don't really see why he couldn't have been both, that is a real man upon which a myth of a saviour god was produced. "New Testament Scholarship needs to ...." I distrust anything which imposes a rule or direction on study. New Testament scholarship does not need to find evidence that backs up this particular person's claim. Like all rational science it needs to find what evidence there is and assess it objectively.

However, far be it from me to decry the messianic nature of the opening when the bulk of the work does require considerable study of its own, and the claims of Earl Doherty's credentials as a Hebrew and Greek scholar are certainly not to be sniffed at. However, just to begin with, his first chapter is called "A Conspiracy of Silence" in which he makes claim that there is no mention of certain figures known from the Gospels prior to c. 100, like Jesus's mother Mary and Pontius Pilate. Except that they are mentioned in the Gospels and the Gospels have been dated to 65-90, as is well known. If he wants to make a substantial point, he needs to demonstrate his argument about later gospels first, it seems to me. At any rate, what we certainly have in chapter 1 is not so much a "Conspiracy of Silence" as an Argument from Silence, which I personally do not find convincing.

What I do find convincing is the very nature of the miracles themselves - healing the sick, turning water into wine, seemingly walking on water. Are these really the best the imagination can come up with for a God man? They are conjuring tricks, actually do-able by anybody. The description in the Gospels even of the death and resurrection point to some kind of sleight-of-hand. Jesus "died" in hours instead of days, he was taken down straight away (not the normal habit with crucifixion, as the Spartacus revolt showed - the crucified were left up pour encourager les autres). The stone was discovered rolled back and the body was gone - what kind of Resurrection myth is this? When ET came back from the dead, we saw it right there on screen!

You can say anything you like when you're creating a myth, particularly one about a God, but if you describe things that anybody could have done, chances are there's a real somebody being talked about.

Substantial point by point argument will have to wait for the moment, I really have to get on with work these days!