#LDTPoll: Who do you believe on the Russian hacking allegations?

[Quantum Quack]

Brazil and Communist China are your examples of limited government with sound money, English common law that protects private property and upholds contract, and are regulatory free.

Apples and Oranges much?

but what is a contract other than a form of regulation?
With out regulation there is no private property just transient occupation or control of property.

Common law by handshake ( verbal ) and subject to fraud or in writing (regulation) minimizing the risk of fraud?

Have you had much to do with self - organizing communities ( aka communes - Hippies etc)?

 

[iceaura]

Our medical and healthcare system is broken due to regulatory capture amd rent-seeking based on licencing.

And insurance industry influence in all of that.
As often happens to supposedly market based allocation setups in arenas lacking the prerequisite features of a market - you see the same problem with "market" based water supplies, roads, and utility hookups, in places foolish enough to try such unworkable setups.

Again: the better systems you can point to are less, not more, reliant on market allocation. All 34 of them.

If we had a free market, sound money and common law, then healthcare would be more than affordable.

No examples of that have ever existed. Hundreds of counterexamples have.
Meanwhile, we can get affordable health care by adopting one of the 34 already functioning and affordable systems we can imitate without discarding our monetary systems and national government.

Brazil and Communist China are your examples of limited government with sound money, English common law that protects private property and upholds contract, and are regulatory free.

No, there is no such thing (no one has figured out how to protect private property and uphold contracts without regulation, and no industrial society has ever had a sound money system - by your definition).
I was just pointing out that you were admiring a product of rigidly enforced regulation, when you pointed to the lack of product knockoffs in the US. Where such regulation does not exist, fraud and piracy are common.

History is littered with the corpses of left governance.

History is littered with the corpses of all past governments.

At the local level, when a service is provided voluntarily without monetary compensation it's called Charity, when instead the price mechanism is utilized, it's called a business.

And when it's provided by the government and paid for via taxation instead of a price mechanism, it's called a public service. Police and fire departments, sewer and water utilities, roads and schools, fall into that category.

As for Socialism being a form of Authoritarianism. This is a definitional fact, particularly at the federal level.

No, it isn't. More to the point, authoritarianism is not socialism. There is such a thing as a rightwing (corporate capitalist) authoritarian government - in fact, they are common. And they have left trails of corpses wherever they emerged.

 

[Michael]

but what is a contract other than a form of regulation?

To me this is like saying, what is Slavery other than a form of work?

In other words, when the State passes a regulation, supposedly for your own good (though rarely), you have no option to opt out. You will live with the regulation whether you want to or do not want to. With a contract, you can negotiate and simply walk away if you don't like the deal. What you may not like, someone else may find it perfectly suitable.

Over regulation is what destroyed the healthcare industry.

Contracts come in all sizes and shapes. For example, when you buy your iPhone7, it comes with a contract. If Apple Inc doesn't live up to their side of the deal, you can get a refund. There's unwritten contracts, such as when you walk into a mall. You agree to a contract, a legal agreement, that you should be able to find which will allow the mall to remove you, sue you, or have you arrested for breaking. When I was working at a restaurant, the 'regulators' called up weeks in advance, to notify (or even ask) the manager when would be convenient. Anyway, most regulations are used to (A) prevent litigation against corporations (which is fair enough, there's a lot of frivolous litigation) or (B) regulatory-capture by rent-seekers to lock out market competition. One of the reasons I, and millions like me, LOVE Uber.

We need to remove most of the B and I believe modern contract law will protect against (A).

With out regulation there is no private property just transient occupation or control of property.

Americans had private property, legal deeds lodged with local city or townships - long before 90% of the current regulatory agencies. I'm not talking lawlessness.

Common law by handshake ( verbal ) and subject to fraud or in writing (regulation) minimizing the risk of fraud?

Lots of things reduce fraud. The single most effective means of reducing fraud is reputation.

Have you had much to do with self - organizing communities ( aka communes - Hippies etc)?

I was in a Fraternity

I sometimes live in a Buddhist Temple. I'm quite struck with the manner in which Japanese self-regulate. Asians are, in many ways, much much MUCH freer than Americans. Particularly when it comes to opening small businesses. They don't trust their Government as far as they can throw them - reminds me of how the US used to be. And, in a way, Japan reminds me of a modern society, with an 'old school' sensibility.

 

[Michael]

And insurance industry influence in all of that.
As often happens to supposedly market based allocation setups in arenas lacking the prerequisite features of a market - you see the same problem with "market" based water supplies, roads, and utility hookups, in places foolish enough to try such unworkable setups.

Again: the better systems you can point to are less, not more, reliant on market allocation. All 34 of them.
No examples of that have ever existed. Hundreds of counterexamples have.
Meanwhile, we can get affordable health care by adopting one of the 34 already functioning and affordable systems we can imitate without discarding our monetary systems and national government.

We've been over this a million times.

And, you're in luck, if Trump wins a second term - I predict right now, he'll bring in some sort of GovernmentCare to replace whatever it is they are going to replace ObamaCare with. Why do I think that? It's what a Progressive Socialist would do. And, Trumps an Authoritarian who leans left - so, it fits with his MO. He's been craping on about Government Healthcare for decades.

And in 50 years no one in their right mind would go to a Government Hospital to see a Government Doctor and be given Government Healthcare. There'll be a thriving Private Industry - this must happen. But, to be honest, the best way to limit Government is to bring in Government Healthcare. It'd probably bust the bank in under 20 years.

No, there is no such thing (no one has figured out how to protect private property and uphold contracts without regulation, and no industrial society has ever had a sound money system - by your definition).

The USA in the late 1800s. WE created the second industrial revolution. Everything from electricity, movies, cars, plans, X-rays, all without fiat currency.

I was just pointing out that you were admiring a product of rigidly enforced regulation, when you pointed to the lack of product knockoffs in the US. Where such regulation does not exist, fraud and piracy are common.

Correlation is not causation. That aside, I'd suggest there is a ton of fraud, it's just are normalized to it. We have plenty of fraud school teachers, fraud university degrees, fraud government departments with fraudulent licences that keep them in business. Our fiat currency is a fraud. Our trillion dollar wars are fraudulent. And etc...

But, we don't need to wonder, we have the internet and there are plenty of fraud sites that spring up - all the time. But guess what? The are found out and the internet is working wonderfully. But don't worry, the Government would LOVE to regulate each and every interaction on-line. Would you like that? Where you could only legally log on to the GovernmentNET (which will be free) with your Government Issued ID. And if you don't follow the rules and fill in your regulatory compliance form each week - well, well, well, you can have your access revoked, for life. Does that sound good to you? You'll pay twice as much as now (only in tax), the GovernmentNET will be half as fast, you'll have to wait in line to use your fair share and everything will be nice and regulated. Equal. Sounds good huh? And we wouldn't want the tax chattel running about communicating with one another without the NSA recording everything - that's dangerous, what with the Russian hackers and such....

Thank the Gods, the Government is too inept to regulate the internet, not to mention - there's plenty of internets out there.

History is littered with the corpses of all past governments.

And when it's provided by the government and paid for via taxation instead of a price mechanism, it's called a public service. Police and fire departments, sewer and water utilities, roads and schools, fall into that category.

Talk to the Dallas Police Department about that one.

We NEED the price mechanism because it is the ONLY means of transmitting all of the information contained in price. And this is a forever thing. Or until humans are no longer humans. Because price is the ONLY way we have to convert subject desire into a medium of exchange.

But worse of all, by attempting to ignore the price mechanism, Government agencies have promised themselves 100s of trillions HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS in free shit they're going to get when they retire. And this can only be paid for by magically quadrupling the population, massively increasing productivity and pretty much destroying Earths ecosystems. Which countries are trying to do through immigration. Except for Japan. And Thank The Gods. Because guess what? All those 'Experts' have been wrong - for 30 years now. Even f*cking last year all I could read about was all the vacant houses in Japan and how this was such a huge problem. Except, it wasn't. What happened? Well, if you're a slumlord, yeah, sucks for you. But if you're a young Japanese - you can buy a home on minimum wage (which is lower than in the US) after saving for about 5 years. If you happen to have a higher paying job, many people are buying those homes in the country side and GAAASP leaving the city by train on the weekends to spend time with their families. IMO Japan and Switzerland and a few other countries are now the 1st world countries, the USA, Germany, England, Sweden, etc.. should be reduced to 2nd world countries. Because, quite frankly, the standard of living in falling in the USA while it's improving nicely in Japan.

No, it isn't. More to the point, authoritarianism is not socialism. There is such a thing as a rightwing (corporate capitalist) authoritarian government - in fact, they are common. And they have left trails of corpses wherever they emerged.

Yes it is. Give an example of 'Socialism' at the Federal Level that does not rely implicitly on fiat currency.

We live in a world of Socialistic Nation States. Pretty much everything Nazi Germany wanted economically, has happened. From Government Schools to Government Universities to quazi-Fascist relationships with air conditioner companies. Amazon signed a massive hundred million dollar deal with GiverMint to provide the CIA with online storage.

Anyway, we only need a few more decades, then most of this will be mute. We will outgrow the need for Government. It's inevitable.

 

[pjdude1219]

Wikileaks have also taken to retweeting Breitbart as though it is fact.

I think that pretty much sums up the whole of Wikileaks and Assange at this point in time.


Tell that to the families of the victims on MH17. Tell that to the families of journalists who are killed in Russia, not to mention members of any political opposition to Putin. Tell that to the civilians in Aleppo who are being bombed by Russian forces for daring to be against Putin's puppet, Assad. Tell that to members of the LGBT community in Russia, who are constant targets due to how Putin decides to portray them.

The list goes on and on.

It's not that Putin is big and scary. It is that he is dangerous and power hungry, to the point where his political opponents are routinely assassinated and journalists who dare to criticise him end up dead, also assassinated in Russia. Perhaps this is what you enjoy in a political leader? Perhaps this is what you deem to be strength in leadership? It is ironic that Wikileaks remains silent on these issues, isn't it?

QUOTE="Michael, post: 3428268, member: 10734"]Get this, perhaps what's best for Russia, GAAAAAAAAASP is also best for the average waddling American. That is, less war, more trade.
I wonder if the "average waddling American" will also think it best to have their passenger jets shot down by weapons supplied by Putin's Kremlin? Or will they think it is in their best interest to murder journalists and political opponents? Perhaps they will believe it is in their best interest to commit criminal acts against LGBT and get away with it? Because that's all best for Russia, yes? So this kind of stuff will be good for America as well, yes?

Just so long as you get more trade, what's the big deal!


Why do you live in the East or recommend it while deploring things like taxation, regulations, health care reform like Medicare, etc? South Korea, for example, is known for its strict and numerous regulations. You only have to look at how they regulate and censor the internet in South Korea to see just how bad it is.

you ever recognize all the places micheal has claimed to live and holds up as beacons of his neofascist ideology are all more socialist than the US?

 

[iceaura]

Americans had private property, legal deeds lodged with local city or townships - long before 90% of the current regulatory agencies

And privately owned people. And cholera epidemics. Because freedom!

They had rigorous enforcement of strict local laws, instead. For example, capitalist corporations were largely forbidden, and strictly bound by law - they had to demonstrate a need for their existence, and had no right to do anything else, or even continue to exist (much less grow) once their declared purpose was over. So you can forget about your IPhone, if you go back to the days of freedom in America you pine for - capital took a back seat to almost every social interest there was, from religious observance to the dress codes enforced on the public street.

Yes it is. Give an example of 'Socialism' at the Federal Level that does not rely implicitly on fiat currency.

We live in a world of Socialistic Nation States. Pretty much everything Nazi Germany wanted economically, has happened.

Currency has nothing to do with socialism.
Nazi Germany was a Fascist nation state. Not Socialist. Even the central bank was a privately owned, for profit, capitalist entity.
And so forth.

 

[Quantum Quack]

In other words, when the State passes a regulation, supposedly for your own good (though rarely), you have no option to opt out. You will live with the regulation whether you want to or do not want to. With a contract, you can negotiate and simply walk away if you don't like the deal. What you may not like, someone else may find it perfectly suitable.

But this is totally wrong..
you miss the fundamental point.
Evey one has a fundamental capacity to say no to anything they chose to say no to.
Basically it is like this, if you don't like the rules then stop playing the game.
Of course you can opt out....



If you don't want to pay your membership fees ( tax) or share your profits (tax) then perhaps Google for a club or association ( country) that can serve you better and go join them instead. if you can't find one then start your own. If you can't start your own then learn to tolerate the rules and your own inadequacies or opt out all together and make some one else pay for your funeral.

 

[Michael]

you ever recognize all the places micheal has claimed to live and holds up as beacons of his neofascist ideology are all more socialist than the US?

LOL

You're talking shades of grey here. All nations are socialistic. Every single Nation State on Earth. What makes Japan different is it's monoculture. A relatively high IQ homogeneous people.

 

[Michael]

And privately owned people. And cholera epidemics. Because freedom!

That is insane. The USA ended Slavery (which is not a part of a free-market) and epidemics come and go, with or without Governments.

 

[Michael]

They had rigorous enforcement of strict local laws, instead. For example, capitalist corporations were largely forbidden, and strictly bound by law - they had to demonstrate a need for their existence, and had no right to do anything else, or even continue to exist (much less grow) once their declared purpose was over. So you can forget about your IPhone, if you go back to the days of freedom in America you pine for - capital took a back seat to almost every social interest there was, from religious observance to the dress codes enforced on the public street.

We still enforce dress code. Try walking down the mall naked.

As for what would and would not exist (e.g.: an iPhone7). No one knows. But, I do like the idea of ending corporations as legal entities. Privately own businesses on the other hand, are a private property. Further, I have already stated, the ideal form of society is anarchy. That's the goal. We should move towards the goal. It doesn't mean we can have an anarchy tomorrow. Or in a hundred years. So, I already suggested, 1949 as a starting point. A short term goal. Surely we weren't regulatory free in 1949. So, work towards eliminating most of the agencies and regulations since 1949 (perhaps not all, and perhaps eliminate others - much of the New Deal comes to mind). Then work forward towards building a limited government with a thriving private capitalistic free market.

But, that's not going to happen. What's going to happen instead. IMO. Is the USA is going to have something pretty much like a dictator. Maybe a very very powerful POTUS. Then, once that's normal - extended terms for one that is really great. Not all at once. I'd guess, 8 years, then 4 years of someone shit, then a re-run and 8 more of the good one. Slowly, we'll get used to 'electing' the children of the elite. You know, like we already have (See: Bush Jr) or their wives (See: Clinton). And over time, it'll make sense to just keep the good one, and his children.

We've already lost most of the rights the Revolutionary War was fought over - this last nail in the coffin is really just a formality.

America is long dead and gone.
Long live the USA.

 

[Michael]

But this is totally wrong..
you miss the fundamental point.
Evey one has a fundamental capacity to say no to anything they chose to say no to.
Basically it is like this, if you don't like the rules then stop playing the game.
Of course you can opt out....

Okay, so, suppose you wanted to be a medical doctor. You're more than capable of entering any of the best medical schools, but you decide to opt out and open your own medical practice by yourself. You don't claim to be state licensed.

Is this going to be possible?

If you don't want to pay your membership fees ( tax) or share your profits (tax) then perhaps Google for a club or association ( country) that can serve you better and go join them instead. if you can't find one then start your own. If you can't start your own then learn to tolerate the rules and your own inadequacies or opt out all together and make some one else pay for your funeral.

I'm not sure what this paragraph means.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Okay, so, suppose you wanted to be a medical doctor. You're more than capable of entering any of the best medical schools, but you decide to opt out and open your own medical practice by yourself. You don't claim to be state licensed.

Is this going to be possible?

Of course it is... but will it be successful... most likely not. The collective will seek to have your fraudulent offering exposed for what it is... if you pretend to be a mainstream medical
practitioner when you are not (as defined by that collective) then you are guilty of attempting to commit deception. If you don't like the rules and therefore the consequences of breaking those rules then either lobby the Governing body to change those rules, as is usually you right or go practice your so called "you label it" profession where the rules don't apply.

I'm not sure what this paragraph means.

I most cases "sheeple" don't realize that they are self-empowered to make choices as to whether they wish to participate as a fully paid up member of a collective or not. They think they are somehow entitled to membership free of cost. The biggest cost a person faces when being a citizen of a nation is to suffer the oppression that the national collective imposes by way of rules and regulations ( laws) so that ideally the collective can function for the greater good of all participating members.

Sure it is far from perfect... sure there are members that will abuse the privilege and benefits gained by membership but this does not remove the ability of someone to opt out of that collective and either end up in jail, executed, exiled or voluntarily leaves the collective.

Case study : Charlie Chaplin ( he opted out )

There is a basic social philosophy that you appear to be missing in your diatribe.

There is no law that states you have to obey the law ( from a fundamental human freedom pov) however there are laws that state your responsibilities if you wish to be a member of the collective

 

[Quantum Quack]

As globalization gains momentum the planetary or international "collective" via the UN becomes more influential therefore oppressive by way of international law. This is unavoidable as the collective is approaching 8 billion persons and globalization of just about every aspect is occurring. So international law will mature accordingly.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Also there are fundamental problems with Anarchist philosophy that you are alluding to, mainly to do with the utopian ideal that all members of a society are fully mature, respectful and value others freedom more than their own. It is an ideal of egalitarian collective friendship based on an ideal of equality and voluntarism that is not currently possible. Equal knowledge/intelligence, equal maturity, equal ability, and therefore equal individual demand placed upon a person, are simply ideals and not possible.

I have had some involvement with self organizing volunteer communities and the greatest challenge they face is one of equality on volunteer work output. This inequality of work ethic leads to the ultimate destruction of an Anarchist, self organizing society as people get upset when they are "forced" to carry an unfair burden and suddenly rules and regulations come up to ensure equality of effort.

Example: "Why should I study at university for 5 years to become a medical doctor of quality when all I get in return is an income the same as a person who hasn't had to suffer those 5 years."

 

[iceaura]

That is insane. The USA ended Slavery (which is not a part of a free-market) and epidemics come and go, with or without Governments.

The US ended the capitalist free market in human beings by conscripting a government army paid for by taxes, invading the capitalists's private property with it, killing the capitalists who had used their commodity-backed currency to purchase slaves at the free-market auction houses, and robbing their families of their capital investment (the largest store of capital in North America and one of the largest in the world) at gunpoint. That is still the single most radical act of government interference in freemarket capitalism ever seen on the planet.

Meanwhile, cholera epidemics do not come and go with or without governments. Good government prevents them, even bad government helps, lack of government abets them. Freedom from things like cholera epidemics is one of the major benefits of government.

As for what would and would not exist (e.g.: an iPhone7). No one knows.

Sure you do. No capitalist corporations, no IPhones. You want eggs, you have to have a chicken.

But, I do like the idea of ending corporations as legal entities. Privately own businesses on the other hand, are a private property.

The point was, they were illegal at that time in most American regions. The time you pointed to as when Americans had private property but not all this regulation.

A lot of the stuff that is regulated now was simply illegal then. A lot of other stuff that is regulated now was not regulated then - and so cholera epidemics were common, and the entire oyster fishery around Manhattan Island - the richest the world has ever seen - was poisoned and killed off, and every city or town of any size suffered periodic fires that took out entire neighborhoods.

 

[sculptor]

What's the difference between a conscript or draftee and a slave?

 

[iceaura]

What's the difference between a conscript or draftee and a slave?

Price, limitations of duty, wages, benefits, and term of service. Among others.

In this case, capital investment is the key one.

 

[pjdude1219]

LOL

You're talking shades of grey here. All nations are socialistic. Every single Nation State on Earth. What makes Japan different is it's monoculture. A relatively high IQ homogeneous people.

so you admit to being a dishonest hack than?

 

[Michael]

Of course it is... but will it be successful... most likely not. The collective will seek to have your fraudulent offering exposed for what it is... if you pretend to be a mainstream medical
practitioner when you are not (as defined by that collective) then you are guilty of attempting to commit deception.

It's only fraudulent in you pretend to offer a service or good not explicitly stated. I stated, suppose you offer medical services and explicitly state you are not licenced by the Government.

We can use a real world example. Suppose a DO (licensed Doctor of Osteopathy) is one of the world's best kidney surgeons. Suppose she moves to Australia or New Zealand and offers to perform renal medicine without a State license. They list on their agreement form that they are not licenced by those States.

Can they opt out and still offer their service?

No, they will be taken to jail. Even if they were the ONLY person in the world and could save the lives of hundreds. They'd be jailed.

That's the difference between living in a free society and ours. A free society has a free market and laws that protect against fraud. Our society instead has Governmental or quazi-Governmental agencies that licence.

Now as someone who has worked I these institutions I can promise you that the standard is shit. As a matter of fact, many of the so called regulators are utterly incompetent. Which is why you have MDs who cannot find a liver on an X-ray.

Here's a real world example. A Sir (a surgeon) from a world famous medical school was invited to review a program I was once a part of (and couldn't stand so had to quit) and he explicitly stated NONE of the medical graduates were qualified to practice medicine.

Didn't matter. He was paid, left and a decade later the quality is worsen than then.

This doesn't happen in a free market. In a free market, such an institution would go bust as people compete. Which is the real reason why we have regulations. It's not to protect the consumer, it's to provide a security from litigation while protecting those regulators Jerbs. A fat 6 for doing next to nothing is pretty is a governmental institution. There's ZERO incentive to provide quality and a hundreds reasons not to.

I should mention, thousands of MDs are being pumped out of that school. They can practice in most Western countries. The only country I know of that would legally restrict them is Japan. As a matter of fact, an MD wouldn't count as anything in Japan. Now, one could argue, good for Japan. They're protecting their Citizens, however, if this is something Japanese care about they could do the same exact thing in a free market easy enough. For example, insurance is something most people want, and insurance companies are not in the business of losing money. So, they'd only pay for qualifications they deemed worthy.

Oh, and as I've mentioned in the last. I sat down and spoke with one if the department heads about the shit standard. I specifically stated, he or people he loved would die due to medical incompetence. 18 months to the day his wife was misdiagnosed by a graduate who didn't know a massive mass deviating an esophagus together with complaints of daily coughing might be something to look into. Probably didn't know where the esophagus was on the X-ray. His wife died of cancer shortly thereafter. STILL NOTHING CHNAGED.

The power of faith. In God's and State. Insane.

480,000+ people died of medical mistakes, per year, for over a decade.


But, my point is, we don't live in a free society. They don't exist. One did exist, is was America. And it ushered in hitherto unknown levels of prosperity.

 

[Quantum Quack]

It's only fraudulent in you pretend to offer a service or good not explicitly stated. I stated, suppose you offer medical services and explicitly state you are not licenced by the Government.

yeah you can already do that eg. Homeopathy, acupuncture, reflexology, Yoga, Pilates.

We can use a real world example. Suppose a DO (licensed Doctor of Osteopathy) is one of the world's best kidney surgeons. Suppose she moves to Australia or New Zealand and offers to perform renal medicine without a State license. They list on their agreement form that they are not licenced by those States.

No they would have to also advertise the fact to the public at large including every tine someone pays them a visit. Impracticable and impossible to ensure fraud is not present. ( from a fraud prevention POV)

Can they opt out and still offer their service?

Not as an Osteophath as defined by the collective ...nope

That's the difference between living in a free society and ours. A free society has a free market and laws that protect against fraud. Our society instead has Governmental or quazi-Governmental agencies that licence.

mainly to protect against fraud... so what's the difference?

This doesn't happen in a free market. In a free market, such an institution would go bust as people compete. Which is the real reason why we have regulations. It's not to protect the consumer, it's to provide a security from litigation whole protecting those Jerbs. A fat 6 for doing next to nothing is pretty is a governmental institution. There's ZERO incentive to provide quality and a hundreds reasons not to.

this is just severe and paranoid cynicism....
When enough people get screwed the regulation becomes necessary so that the fraudster can be prevented from committing further fraud.
All self organizing systems have to protect its users and regulation whether by verbal or contractual or legislation and becomes necessary once the collective is to big for the handshake alone to be trusted.... and useful.