#LDTPoll: Who do you believe on the Russian hacking allegations?

[Michael]

Good example... why did they regulate ? really... go back to the original issue that forced the regulation....

Classic rent-seeking. You don't need a licence to make coffee in Japan. You can buy the same machine at home.

Come on.

It's a scam to skim money into the coffers of a regulatory agency. What next? You need a licence to cook at home?? I mean, you might burn a pinky!

 

[Michael]

Typically or originally Government and most religions for that matter regulation is only present because of the need to compensate for the lack of self restraint and discipline demonstrated countless times by the majority of collective members.
Of course the government is also made up of individuals that have the same self restraint issues and so of course Government can appear to be self serving and corrupted by power etc...
In most cases it is not the system that is the problem it is the people who run the system.

No arguments here!

 

[Michael]

I don't disagree Japan has a lot of asinine regulations. It's to their detriment. But, in general the attitude is government should piss off and not overstep.

Our attitude is there's a problem.... What's government doing to fix it.

And I expect more from us. Limited government was invented in the USA.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Why do you typically need a drivers license to drive a car?
What is the point of the license?
Why do you normally have to pass a test to get the license?

 

[iceaura]

They don't exist. One did exist, is was America. And it ushered in hitherto unknown levels of prosperity.

No such America ever existed. The one that ushered in hitherto unknown levels of prosperity was based on (among other things) massive government intervention at all levels, innovations in corporate capitalism, the steady progression away from solidly commodity-based currency and toward industrialization, and a proliferation of laws and regulations and governmental complexity across an entire continent.

Now as someone who has worked I these institutions I can promise you that the standard is shit

You no longer provide enough information for anyone to check on your claims of fact. I think that's because whenever you do, five minutes on a standard search engine turns up flat contradictions of your claims. I know that every time you have made a claim about something I know about personally, you have got it wrong. So unsupported claims of personal experience or whatever, from you, are not evidence of anything - except possibly, as a statistical correlation, the contrary of whatever you claimed.

"The point was, they were illegal at that time in most American regions. The time you pointed to as when Americans had private property but not all this regulation. - -
- -A lot of the stuff that is regulated now was simply illegal then - - "
I said 1949. With the goal being Anarchy.

No, that was a different post (1949 was a time of heavy government regulation of recently expanded corporations, wouldn't do at all).

Let's just return to the levels of regulations in 1949. That's a start.

Comedy.
If we collect all your posts, you have "said" every decade from 1690 to 1990 was the magic time of America the free and well governed. Now you have chosen the advent of the greatest boom in prosperity ever experienced by a civilization not actually in the process of robbing another, richer, civilization by military force. The circumstances were the first full implementation of the New Deal, and its expansion via the GI Bill and similar innovations. A time of actual wage and price controls, union consolidation and strength backed by governmental support, and the establishment of the peacetime military/industrial complex we know today - a massive and perennially meddling force in world affairs, about to launch the Korean War.

And I expect more from us. Limited government was invented in the USA.

By slaveowners, to protect their investment from governmental meddling. And they weren't the first - the Barbary pirates beat them to the concept. Before them, the Mongols, Vikings, and so forth.

Or were you thinking of the Iroquois?

 

[Michael]

Why do you typically need a drivers license to drive a car?
What is the point of the license?
Why do you normally have to pass a test to get the license?

Actually in the USA requiring a drivers license for a public road is unconstitutional.

That aside, in a free market, with private tolled roads, it isn't unreasonable to assume the owners would require some means of ascertaining driving competence. Unlike driving a semi trailer, a cup of coffee is extremely unlikely to harm anyone. The license is purely a money making scam invented by a public twit. And this is how "rules" are made, not debated in an open forum but just made up by a bureaucratic scammer looking for avenues to fleece the public. If this was about safety, then private citizens would be required to be licenced to prepare hot coco for their own children.

It's 100% scam.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Actually in the USA requiring a drivers license for a public road is unconstitutional.

That aside, in a free market, with private tolled roads, it isn't unreasonable to assume the owners would require some means of ascertaining driving competence. Unlike driving a semi trailer, a cup of coffee is extremely unlikely to harm anyone. The license is purely a money making scam invented by a public twit. And this is how "rules" are made, not debated in an open forum but just made up by a bureaucratic scammer looking for avenues to fleece the public. If this was about safety, then private citizens would be required to be licenced to prepare hot coco for their own children.

It's 100% scam.

I understand your point. However it is worth keeping in mind that providing coffee for money ( commercial) is significantly different from providing it for free in a domestic setting. Similar to legalized prostitution. Commercial vested interests have a tendency to corrupt the offer hence the greater tendency to regulate.
So perhaps 95% scam may be a better assessment..

 

[Michael]

No such America ever existed. The one that ushered in hitherto unknown levels of prosperity was based on (among other things) massive government intervention at all levels, innovations in corporate capitalism, the steady progression away from solidly commodity-based currency and toward industrialization, and a proliferation of laws and regulations and governmental complexity across an entire continent.

Regulations do not create prosperity and ours was derived from free markets (a million times freer than today) sound money (some backed by metal, others not) the second industrial revolution.

Now you have chosen the advent of the greatest boom in prosperity ever experienced by a civilization not actually in the process of robbing another, richer, civilization by military force.

There was no richer civilization. As a matter of fact, the land that became the USA was mostly uncivilized.

A few cities, hardly anything of note.

The circumstances were the first full implementation of the New Deal, and its expansion via the GI Bill and similar innovations. A time of actual wage and price controls, union consolidation and strength backed by governmental support, and the establishment of the peacetime military/industrial complex we know today - a massive and perennially meddling force in world affairs, about to launch the Korean War.

Fine, let's got to that level of regulation as a start. We can start by ending the DoED and other billion dollars wastes of time that constitute governmental agencies that didn't exist post 1949. Then we rewind to pre New Deal. Which should be dismantled now. Then we end the Fed naturally through currency competition.

By slaveowners, to protect their investment from governmental meddling. And they weren't the first - the Barbary pirates beat them to the concept. Before them, the Mongols, Vikings, and so forth.

Only 1 - 2% of Americans owned Slaves and Slavery was a Government backed institution. Incidentally, white slavery existed for centuries - many Irish slaves were sold into the USA, among other nations (Arabs owned a number of white slaves). About 20% of indentured servants died before gaining freedom and about >25% of freed blacks turned around and bought and owned slaves. Much high percent compared to 2% Whites, of these a relatively large percentage where Europeans who where Jewish, as opposed to English Protestants. While most Slaves were sold into Catholic Brazil, Slavery as an institution was ended by Protestant white Englishmen.

The second industrial revolution occurred because government backed slavery ended. Prior to ending slavery, wealthy individuals wouldnt make capital investment into anything sounding like automation. Why do that when they already invested in Peons, serfs, slaves, etc... All backed by various forms of governments down the ages.

 

[Michael]

I understand your point. However it is worth keeping in mind that providing coffee for money ( commercial) is significantly different from providing it for free in a domestic setting. Similar to legalized prostitution. Commercial vested interests have a tendency to corrupt the offer hence the greater tendency to regulate.
So perhaps 95% scam may be a better assessment..

I disagree about the commercial vested interests having a tendency of corruption, in my experience they have a tendency of providing value for money or go bankrupt.

I'm not even sure what examples of corruption a small cafe would constitute? Perhaps lying about single origin coffee? Large chains like Starbucks's are way to brand sensitive to allow corruption to tarnish their billion dollar profit making branding.

That aside, I personally don't see such a chasm just because money exchanges hands. Uber has made this quite clear. And it works wonderfully.we will need many mire such enterprises in order to remain prosperous in the coming age of automation and AI. Thus, people will have to get over this devide between private and public, it doesn't really exist.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I disagree about the commercial vested interests having a tendency of corruption, in my experience they have a tendency of providing value for money or go bankrupt.

I'm not even sure what examples of corruption a small cafe would constitute? Perhaps lying about single origin coffee? Large chains like Starbucks's are way to brand sensitive to allow corruption to tarnish their billion dollar profit making branding.

That aside, I personally don't see such a chasm just because money exchanges hands. Uber has made this quite clear. And it works wonderfully.we will need many mire such enterprises in order to remain prosperous in the coming age of automation and AI. Thus, people will have to get over this devide between private and public, it doesn't really exist.

It is quite strange that you exonerate the commercial fraudsters and consider the consumer to be more likely to commit fraud. Quite strange indeed.
This the nub of our disagreement IMO

 

[Michael]

Re: healthcare / iceaura's fantasyland of Bernie's free healthcare.

By almost every measure Americans consume more healthcare. as an example, the United States performs 587 coronary procedures per 100,000 people, compared to 357 in Germany and 154 in the United Kingdom. Americans are overwhelmingly obese (1 in 3 are obese) compared to Japanese (1 in 35). Not to mention the morbidly obese in America.

Americans consume about 9000 dollars a year on average per person. In Japan the cost is 4000.

Tell me, how are you going to fund that 9000 per person? What social services are you hoping to see cut? How much more per year should middle class Americans pay? Notice about half of Americans pay no income tax. So it's really 18,000 per tax payer.

How you going to pay that?

 

[Michael]

It is quite strange that you exonerate the commercial fraudsters and consider the consumer to be more likely to commit fraud. Quite strange indeed.
This the nub of our disagreement IMO

Oaky, let's use Apple Inc as an example. How do you suppose Apple is going to defraud me without me suing them?

As for frivolous lawsuits, this is a serious problem, but I think contract law and a sensible jury can handle it with threat of counter suits.

 

[iceaura]

By almost every measure Americans consume more healthcare.

That's largely a consequence of a badly set up system.

When health care is better set up, people don't run up those enormous bills for disasters that would have been prevented in a sane system.

How you going to pay that?

Americans already are paying that.

Set things up to be cheaper, they'll be paying less.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Oaky, let's use Apple Inc as an example. How do you suppose Apple is going to defraud me without me suing them?

As for frivolous lawsuits, this is a serious problem, but I think contract law and a sensible jury can handle it with threat of counter suits.

The only reason you can sue them is because there is a legal frame work that allows it. ( aka regulation)
With out the legal frame work Apple Inc can get away with anything due to their vast resources that are considerably more than the average Joe. Regulation attempts to equalize the playing field so that Poor Joe stands a chance and the Government can also do the suing instead.
Have you got another example that proves my point...?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Re: healthcare / iceaura's fantasyland of Bernie's free healthcare.

By almost every measure Americans consume more healthcare. as an example, the United States performs 587 coronary procedures per 100,000 people, compared to 357 in Germany and 154 in the United Kingdom. Americans are overwhelmingly obese (1 in 3 are obese) compared to Japanese (1 in 35). Not to mention the morbidly obese in America.

Americans consume about 9000 dollars a year on average per person. In Japan the cost is 4000.

Tell me, how are you going to fund that 9000 per person? What social services are you hoping to see cut? How much more per year should middle class Americans pay? Notice about half of Americans pay no income tax. So it's really 18,000 per tax payer.

How you going to pay that?

I think you will find one of the biggest add on costs to the health system and why so expensive is because of this crazy expectations, "Doctor God syndrome" and the cost of malpractice insurance accordingly.
The doctors market themselves as amazing healers and well they often can't do as they market themselves to do. Thus setting up huge expectations and false hope that require huge insurance premiums to cater for.

and North Americans "take the cake" * when it comes to consumerism...
*excuse the pun....

 

[Michael]

That's largely a consequence of a badly set up system.

No kidding!

A 100 years of regulatory capture. There are LESS medical schools now, compared with a century ago! We need to end the AMA monopoly and return to a free market in medical services. Sound money would also help.

When health care is better set up, people don't run up those enormous bills for disasters that would have been prevented in a sane system.

The data clearly show Americans consume more healthcare. Much more. IOWs even without so-called "free" healthcare, Americans are avid consumers of health related products. If given a choice between diet and exercise, and a pill and surgery, Americans choose the later.

That costs money. And when adjusted as best as possible, Americans consume twice what Japanese consume.

So? Which public services do you want massively cut to pay for it?

Set things up to be cheaper, they'll be paying less.

Um no. Things cannot be set up THAT MUCH cheaper. We're talking TRILLIONS spent per year. Almost everyone is on copious amounts of pills. Pills that requires hundred of billions to develop. Cutting a CEO scummy pay raise isn't even going to dent the rounding error in this bill.

If you want cheaper then you need an increase in supply and productivity. If you only have X number of surgeons or Y number of fMRI or etc.... things are limited and price reflects that limit.

That's best done in a free market. And if you think you have some magic formula then sell it to an insurance company because they pay a lot to develop the mathematical algorithms and networks and are probably as lean as can be run. Most will have to quit Oblahblah Care because they'll otherwise go into bankruptcy.

Sorry, no magic rabbit here.

The bill is 18k per tax payer and most cannot afford it. So, middle class, they'll have to pay 36,000 per year.

The government's ponzi scam is coming to an end and no amount of refugee low quality pay payers will make up the difference (though I'm convinced they'll make the scapegoats in Europe... Again).

 

[Michael]

The only reason you can sue them is because there is a legal frame work that allows it. ( aka regulation)

If you'd like to call English common law (that protects private property and upholds contract) then okay.

We do need law.
We do need arbitration.

We do not need regulatory agencies. We vote for representatives and they (supposedly) debate and vote on laws.

With a Constitution that protects against Government (which is pretty much all the US Constitution does) then anyone can sue in court for contract violation.

 

[Michael]

Regulation attempts to equalize the playing field so that Poor Joe stands a chance and the Government can also do the suing instead.

Again, I'm in disagreement. I do agree English common law is a great basis for legal arbitration.

But regulations are, for the most part, NOT to protect the consumer. They exist to do the exact opposite, to protect corporations against litigation. They also are widely used for rent-seeking via regulatory capture and licencing scams.

Just who do you think writes most of the regulations? For the most part, partners in industry, outright members of industry, or people looking to get into industry and are using a regulatory agency as a stepping stone to high position. They'll often write regulations so convoluted only they can figure them out - then they get a highly paid job performing this service as consultant.

Have you got another example that proves my point...?

How about a Toyota prius? Or a McDonald's bigmac? A Starbucks latte? A Toshiba PC. A Sony phone. A Heineken beer. Pfizer's viagra. An X Box video game. A Stephen King novel.

Etc...

Take your pick. How are any of the above company's going to defraud me in such a way I cannot have my day in court under English Common Law with a Jury?

 

[Michael]

I think you will find one of the biggest add on costs to the health system and why so expensive is because of this crazy expectations, "Doctor God syndrome" and the cost of malpractice insurance accordingly.
The doctors market themselves as amazing healers and well they often can't do as they market themselves to do. Thus setting up huge expectations and false hope that require huge insurance premiums to cater for.

and North Americans "take the cake" * when it comes to consumerism...
*excuse the pun....

I do agree people are sue-happy; particularly in the USA. However, while there is a downside, I personally think it's worth the upside. Which is punishing illegal medical practice.

I also think this illustrates my point. You can write all the regulations you'd like, but at the end of the day, it's you under the knife. Amd their friends will vouch for them.

As an example, a man went into see his doctor, he had a "kink" in his neck (some neck pain). He was advised minor surgery. He had this performed in a public hospital in Australia. Somehow, not sure how, the idiot surgeon severed part of his spinal cord. By a resident intern. See, in the public hospitals in AU, you're kind if practice material. The overseeing surgeon was in his office (probably filling in regulatory paperwork). The man did have an underlying illness which was known (MS). He was quadriplegic for 8 months and then died.

Want to know what the "public servants" did? How they looked after this man's welfare? They did nothing. Just racked him up to an example of what not to do. He didn't even show up as an example of medical error.

Believe me, the patients are the bottom of the bottom of the to do list.

Oh, and incidentally, Australia has an insanely low Medical Error rate. Less than 100 per year. Of course, the real number is probably 80,000 (say 1 in 12). But, through the magic of regulatory compliance, hardly anyone falls into this super specific category.

THAT is the contempt the public service regards the public thwy supposedly serve. IMO your faith is misplaced. And IMO it is a faith. If you are interested it's referred to as Statheism. And, like anyone who's faith is being argued against, I believe most people cannot think rationally. So, don't take anything I said personally.

There is only one solution, a free competitive market. What that derives, no one can know.

 

[iceaura]

Um no. Things cannot be set up THAT MUCH cheaper. We're talking TRILLIONS spent per year

They're half price everywhere else.

Americans pay about double what anybody else pays. It's because they they set up a lot more market influence, for-profit insurance, etc, in inapplicable situations.